Leader Vs. Manager Bishops?

[The Nehor]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I would have struggled not to reply "I'm a volunteer not an employee. Nothing I do for this calling is mandatory."

I did and my response was firm but diplomatic. I am sort of a volunteer. I did make covenants. I usually enjoy my calling. These last few months have just been nuts. We moved buildings, the ward split, and we are still doing year end stuff. I shouldn’t complain. I have one of the best callings in the church. I get to know most everything that is going on, get more access to records than anyone except the bishop, get the chance to give input into every major ward level decision, and if it all falls apart I am not the one who gets blamed unless the numbers do not add up.  

Just remember my grandpa’s motto: “It will get better.”

[rockpond]

21 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There is a  level of entitlement in the church that I don't think is very healthy. Meaning, the church (leaders & members alike) expect volunteers to act like employees. It's bad enough treating people who "volunteer" for certain positions to live up to demanding expectations, but it's even worse, IMO, to be so demanding of people who have been "drafted" into positions. Is it reasonable to have "mandatory" meetings and get upset with members who don't attend, when everything they do they are doing free of charge and out of the goodness of their hearts? I don't think so.

In my opinion, the church, its leaders and members alike, should be generally more thankful for the service people render, instead of always expecting they do more.

I work really hard at my calling.  I try to go above and beyond to "magnify".  As executive secretary I do all I can to take burdens off the shoulders of my bishop.

But... when the stake tells me that there is a stake priesthood meeting that's going to take me away from my family for 2.5 hours on a Sunday night (after spending most of the day at church) and they don't identify any specific purpose for the meeting... it's a "no" from me.  I used to feel guilty about it but then I realized:  stake leaders directly control the content of one sacrament meeting each month and they could direct the content in Elders Quorum twice per month.  On top of that, they've got stake conference twice a year.  If there is something they want me to hear/know/learn they've got my attention at those times.

So... these days, if you want me in a meeting outside of the Sunday block, you gotta give a compelling reason to be there.  And, "I'm your priesthood leader and I put it on the calendar" is not a compelling reason.

[let’s roll]

I attended a leadership meeting in connection with our Stake Conference.  The message from the visiting authority was that we should be led by the Spirit in our callings and not expect to be commanded in all things by Stake or General leaders and shouldn’t feel compelled to do something a certain way just because it had been done that way in the past. 

A nice simple inspired message that could have been shared in 30 minutes but took two hours to share.  Why two hours?  Best I could tell it was because leadership meetings during Stake Conference have always run two hours.

Edited February 13, 2020 by let’s roll

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I work really hard at my calling.  I try to go above and beyond to "magnify".  As executive secretary I do all I can to take burdens off the shoulders of my bishop.

But... when the stake tells me that there is a stake priesthood meeting that's going to take me away from my family for 2.5 hours on a Sunday night (after spending most of the day at church) and they don't identify any specific purpose for the meeting... it's a "no" from me.  I used to feel guilty about it but then I realized:  stake leaders directly control the content of one sacrament meeting each month and they could direct the content in Elders Quorum twice per month.  On top of that, they've got stake conference twice a year.  If there is something they want me to hear/know/learn they've got my attention at those times.

So... these days, if you want me in a meeting outside of the Sunday block, you gotta give a compelling reason to be there.  And, "I'm your priesthood leader and I put it on the calendar" is not a compelling reason.

IMO- it's common courtesy to identify a purpose for a meeting and/or provide an agenda. If a leader is going to ask that a person attend, he should be able to explain why attendance is needed. There are very few organizations that will plan meetings and ask people to attend without giving an indication about the content of the meeting. I figure if they don't need me to know what its about, they don't need me to attend.

I've been to way too many meetings, Bishoprics, High Council, whatever Presidency, Bishop youth discussions, etc. where there is no plan for the meeting. You can tell the leader is winging it, holding the meeting simply because they are supposed to. If it's not important enough to plan for it's not important enough to attend. I honestly think they don't tell us the purpose of meetings sometimes because 1- they haven't planned it yet , or 2- they don't think people will show up if they know what its about. Both are rude (to say the least).

[Islander]

On 2/11/2020 at 8:46 AM, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

I'm serving as bishop right now. I did a count of my mandated meetings for the month of January (a slower month than many) and counted 28. This doesn't include things like youth interviews or other interviews. That would put the count up to about 70. 

My counselors were in 24 of the 28 meetings, but did fewer interviews. I'd say their meeting count would be closer to 50. 

For some context, our ward has about 160 active members and a little over 40 active youth. 

I have noticed that the "corporate culture" has infiltrated the church and shows no signs of slowing down. There are a multitude of meetings that accomplish very little and unresolved items are yet pushed to another future meeting. Wards are very diverse in age, culture/language, socio-economics and what works well in one place fails miserably in others with the Bishops left to fend for themselves. 

Another issue that is troubling (at least to me) is the calling of very young Bishops. Some are not "mature" enough to handle the myriad of issues to surface in the course of shepherding a ward. Since no LDS Bishop has any real pastoral training, many are ill-equipped for the rigors of the calling in addition to the demands of full time employment and raising a young family. I am in my mid 50's now and have only 1 child left in HS. For me, serving in the church now is a lot easier than it was 20 years ago when I was trying to deal with and raise 5 children. Just some thoughts.

[Kenngo1969]

I can't say that I've agreed with every single thing every bishop I've ever had has done, or with the way he's done it.  That said, I'm loath to criticize any of them or any of their decisions.  I'm glad I'll never have the calling, because I'm quite sure I wouldn't last five minutes in it.  I'm sure I've made more than a few people upset in my piddly little calling as ward bulletin coordinator, and that the only reason I haven't been released is because I haven't upset the entire ward yet.  Are you a leader?  If so, you're probably a better leader than I'll ever be.  Are you a manager?  If so, you're probably a better manager than I'll ever be.  Congratulations.  Hat's off.  Is there anything more I can do to support you?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

On 2/11/2020 at 9:08 AM, Duncan said:

I wish I could give you a rep point for that! the worst SP we had, is still living in the Stake, but he's OLD SCHOOL LDS, ugh. But his Stake Conference talks were about making fun of his wife and single women and talking about himself for half an hour. I hope to heaven above he doesn't become our first Temple President, he's over 75 but who knows.

P.S.: "I have been totally awesome in every calling I've ever had, and I can't believe that everybody else hasn't performed up to that standard!  On the other hand, let me tell you about my bishop, Bishop Smith, and my stake president, President Jones, and our Relief Society president, President Anderson!  You would not believe ..."

Is everybody okay with criticism of people you don't know by people who don't know you?   What about you, Bishop Gui and Bishop Jack Wagon?  (I'm not saying that either one of you are engaging in unfair criticism.  I'm simply using your [screen] names because I know you've held the office.) 

Whatever standard we try to hold someone else to, would we be okay if someone tried to hold us to that standard?  My brother has been both a bishop and a stake president.  I know he wasn't a perfect bishop or stake president, because he hasn't been a perfect brother. While I know nothing of how he performed as a bishop or as a stake president, it would be hard for me to not rise to his defense if someone called him out on a thread like this.  The only difference is, no names are being used.  Does that make it OK?  Have we made a covenant to not speak evil of the Lord's anointed ... unless we do so anonymously?  Think about it.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/13/2020 at 8:24 AM, The Nehor said:

I did and my response was firm but diplomatic. I am sort of a volunteer. I did make covenants. I usually enjoy my calling. These last few months have just been nuts. We moved buildings, the ward split, and we are still doing year end stuff. I shouldn’t complain. I have one of the best callings in the church. I get to know most everything that is going on, get more access to records than anyone except the bishop, get the chance to give input into every major ward level decision, and if it all falls apart I am not the one who gets blamed unless the numbers do not add up.  

Just remember my grandpa’s motto: “It will get better.”

Ward clerks are among the best callings in the Church. I considered it my job to make life easier for the bishopric and to make them look good when I could.

What if you are the guy for whom it won’t get any better?

Edited March 9, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Is everybody okay with criticism of people you don't know by people who don't know you?   What about you, Bishop Gui and Bishop Jack Wagon?  (I'm not saying that either one of you are engaging in unfair criticism.  I'm simply using your [screen] names because I know you've held the office.) 

I’m not sure what you are asking here, Kenngo.

Just this week, I was visiting a website for a stake where I lived in another state. I served in a bishopric in that stake. Someone posted a photo of our bishopric and there was a lot of nostalgic stories. Then a sister came on and said our bishopric had set a record for excommunications, had conducted a massive witch hunt in the ward, and destroyed her family. She aimed a few choice personal slanders at me along the way. I didn’t remember things that way, but she has been nursing that for over 40 years. It was interesting.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m not sure what you are asking here, Kenngo.

Just this week, I was visiting a website for a stake where I lived in another state. I served in a bishopric in that stake. Someone posted a photo of our bishopric and there was a lot of nostalgic stories. Then a sister came on and said our bishopric had set a record for excommunications, had conducted a massive witch hunt in the ward, and destroyed her family. She aimed a few choice personal slanders at me along the way. I didn’t remember things that way, but she has been nursing that for over 40 years. It was interesting.

I'm not calling out anyone who's been in the position.  As I very likely would with the sister who slandered you, I'm saying that I'm not comfortable passing judgment on those who have been in the position ... unless, of course, one has fulfilled every calling one has ever had flawlessly. (How the heck would she know, outside of the rumor mill, that a bishopric had "set a record for excommunications," anyway?  More than likely, this is a situation in which those who've talked don't know, and those who know haven't talked.)

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ward clerks are among the best callings in the Church. I considered it my job to make life easier for the bishopric and to make them look good when I could.

What if you are the guy for whom it won’t get any better?

Then I will die hoping it gets better in death. If it does not even in death I will probably call it quits and take up spirit fishing or whatever they do there to try to distract themselves.

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Then I will die hoping it gets better in death. If it does not even in death I will probably call it quits and take up spirit fishing or whatever they do there to try to distract themselves.

Or, when it can’t possibly get any worse, one could say it can only get better.

 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Or, when it can’t possibly get any worse, one could say it can only get better.

 

It can always get worse. Anyone who says a situation cannot get worse lacks imagination.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It can always get worse. Anyone who says a situation cannot get worse lacks imagination.

Yeah, but I can imagine that someplace there is the one for whom it can’t get worse. “Gee, I’m sorry dude. It just can’t get any worse.” 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yeah, but I can imagine that someplace there is the one for whom it can’t get worse. “Gee, I’m sorry dude. It just can’t get any worse.” 

But by saying that to them you just made it a little worse.

[Kenngo1969]

19 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Or, when it can’t possibly get any worse, one could say it can only get better.

 

 

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It can always get worse. Anyone who says a situation cannot get worse lacks imagination.

 

[Kenngo1969]

This post, too, has nothing to do with this thread, but it's the next thing that came up on Youtube after I posted Howard Jones's other recent contribution to it (via yours truly, of course.  I wonder, how would "Brother Jones" feel about having his music posted to a Board dedicated to discussing topics relevant to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  Heh! ).  This song, too, as did the previous one I posted, captures the state of my life remarkably well. Oh, well!

 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

But by saying that to them you just made it a little worse.

Perhaps judicious silence would be more merciful. Or perhaps finding out he is indeed at the rock bottom would make him smile for a moment or two at the accomplishment, but then reality might take that moment away forever. Then he truly would be the one for whom it could not get worse, but no one could tell him.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Bernard Gui