Intruder Shot, Killed at Brasil Mtc

[Thinking]

35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It was in the Missionary Training Center, not the temple. 

Late to  the party.

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

He was at an MTC, not a temple.

 

[strappinglad]

My understanding is the LEO rule is that if a perp with a knife is within 20 ft, deadly force is needed/allowed . 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

My understanding is the LEO rule is that if a perp with a knife is within 20 ft, deadly force is needed/allowed . 

LEO = Law Enforcement Officer.  Seems reasonable enough to me.  

My understanding is that a Law Enforcement Officer saying a weapon should be put down on the ground = the weapon should immediately be put down on the ground.  Non compliance can get somebody hurt or killed.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

We're all going to die sometime and I can think of worse ways to go.  I wonder what his reception was like on the other side of the veil, considering there were likely some good spirits in that temple then who would be there to greet him.  And I wonder how long it will take for somebody to do his ordinance work for him, and when it is done if it will be done in that temple. Just some thoughts that came to my mind because of where he died, a place where we do ordinance work for those who are dead.  Kind of like dieing in a hospital, a place where we usually come into this world as we are born from where we came from.  When I die I wouldn't mind if it was while I was in a temple.  I wouldn't want to be shot or stuck with a knife while there, as the cause of my death, but it would be a good place to go when it is my time to go.

??

The MTC is not a temple.

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Late to  the party.

 

I recognized that later, but the observation bears repeating, as it did when mfbukowski made it after I did. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

The MTC is not a temple.

Yabut , what are we to call the place where God's army is housed... a barracks??? 😱

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I recognized that later, but the observation bears repeating, as it did when mfbukowski made it after I did. 

As usual, I was simply letting my mouth run without my brain engaged.    It helps to actually read the thread before posting, but there is always the opportunity to miss a question already answered, because of course a response takes time 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Yabut , what are we to call the place where God's army is housed... a barracks??? 😱

Heaven.  😇

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

As usual, I was simply letting my mouth run without my brain engaged.    It helps to actually read the thread before posting, but there is always the opportunity to miss a question already answered, because of course a response takes time 

 

 

As I said, in this case it bears repeating. The intruder was at the MTC, not the temple. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Yabut , what are we to call the place where God's army is housed... a barracks??? 😱

What’s wrong with “MTC”? 

[mfbukowski]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said, in this case it bears repeating. The intruder was at the MTC, not the temple. 

Oh!  I heard it was at the MTC, and not the temple.  Funny how those things get confused!   

 

[stemelbow]

This whole planet is just the spirit world that will one day be celestialized, or something.  I can see how Ahab mistook it.  Everywhere's just a temple waiting to have a structure put on it and then dedicated by one of them prophets.  

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh!  I heard it was at the MTC, and not the temple.  Funny how those things get confused!   

 

Ahab said it was at the temple. I guess that’s because he “uses language differently.”  😝 🙄

Edited February 5, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What’s wrong with “MTC”? 

Silly-- everyone knows that then it could be confused with "Many Tall Collaborators" and then they could be seen as terrorists.

Gosh- EVERYONE knows that!!

[gopher]

I wonder why the Church doesn't protect the MTC in Brazil as well as in Provo.  In the Provo MTC, I remember hearing how there are angels surrounding the building protecting missionaries from the evil spirits trying to get in.  Maybe it's visa issues that keeps them from sending angels down to Brazil?  I know we've had problems with missionaries and visas.  Just a thought.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I wonder why the Church doesn't protect the MTC in Brazil as well as in Provo.  In the Provo MTC, I remember hearing how there are angels surrounding the building protecting missionaries from the evil spirits trying to get in.  Maybe it's visa issues that keeps them from sending angels down to Brazil?  I know we've had problems with missionaries and visas.  Just a thought.

I heard that story a few times in the Provo MTC. I assumed it was a folklore thing.

[gopher]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I heard that story a few times in the Provo MTC. I assumed it was a folklore thing.

I can't remember all the details and couldn't find the exact story online, but it was similar to this one

But it was a cool story to think about when you are still a teenager and thousands of miles from home.  I didn't see any angels while I was there, but I did catch a glimpse of one of the huge Samoan security guards.  I felt just as safe with those big dudes around.

[Kenngo1969]

On 2/5/2020 at 10:46 AM, RevTestament said:

Wow. Never like seeing anyone get killed, but it does sound like the guards acted entirely appropriately in stopping this man. However, I would like to know why he was so upset that he was willing to attack the police,  and I hope that other would-be attackers get the message that they cannot just walk into Church facilities thinking of doing harm to someone.  

Law enforcement, unfortunately, has a name for it.  It's called suicide by cop.  I'm unsure what standards govern how police operate in Brazil, but it seems, based on what little information is available, that police acted appropriately.  I know at least a little bit, I think, about wanting to die by one's own hand.  I also know a whole lot about whatever it is that prevents someone from taking that final, drastic step.

I have also provoked a confrontation with law enforcement, but not to the extent that they've felt compelled to shoot me, and I've known at least one officer who's had to shoot at someone.  Officers are neither psychologically nor sociologically "well-engineered" to shoot anyone: If they were, we would call them psychopaths or sociopaths.  I'm not going to provoke someone to do to me what I'm afraid to do to myself. 

Law enforcement officers and military personnel are unlike everyone else, in that they are empowered to use deadly force on society's behalf (society being who they protect when they do so).  They are exactly like everyone else, though, in that they are not immune from the effects on the user of using deadly force. Too many people have this erroneous vision of law enforcement as "trigger-happy," "itching to use their guns," when the high incidence of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, alcohol and drug abuse, other mental illness, and family dysfunction among them testifies to the contrary.

I would tell anyone who is tempted to resort to suicide by cop, don't be thinking that the person who shoots you won't carry that encounter and (at least some of) its effects throughout the rest of his or her life.  In a way, I think that's a really selfish way to go out.  You may be free of your pain, but the officer who shot you will carry the pain you've inflicted on him or her for the rest of his or her life.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

I had several run-ins with armed hombres in Central America. Never told my parents.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Anijen]

On 2/5/2020 at 1:02 PM, The Nehor said:

Somehow I knew you would say that. You seem incapable of conceiving that you are wrong so you just make up new word definitions to show you are right. Of course you are wrong because chapels are actually brothels and this board is actually a stegosaurus named Stanley.

Just an FYI MTC's are dedicated for a place for the Savior to walk in just like temples, although they are not temples the sacredness is up there. I thought the triceratops was stanley?

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Law enforcement, unfortunately, has a name for it.  It's called suicide by cop.  I'm unsure what standards govern how police operate in Brazil, but it seems, based on what little information is available, that police acted appropriately.  I know at least a little bit, I think, about wanting to die by one's own hand.  I also know a whole lot about whatever it is that prevents someone from taking that final, drastic step.

I have also provoked a confrontation with law enforcement, but not to the extent that they've felt compelled to shoot me, and I've known at least one officer who's had to shoot at someone.  Officers are neither psychologically nor sociologically "well-engineered" to shoot anyone: If they were, we would call them psychopaths or sociopaths.  I'm not going to provoke someone to do to me what I'm afraid to do to myself. 

Law enforcement officers and military personnel are unlike everyone else, in that they are empowered to use deadly force on society's behalf (society being who they protect when they do so).  They are exactly like everyone else, though, in that they are not immune from the effects on the user of using deadly force. Too many people have this erroneous vision of law enforcement as "trigger-happy," "itching to use their guns," when the high incidence of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, alcohol and drug abuse, other mental illness, and family dysfunction among them testifies to the contrary.

I would tell anyone who is tempted to resort to suicide by cop, don't be thinking that the person who shoots you won't carry that encounter and (at least some of) its effects throughout the rest of his or her life.  In a way, I think that's a really selfish way to go out.  You may be free of your pain, but the officer who shot you will carry the pain you've inflicted on him or her for the rest of his or her life.

Same reason you should not jump in front of trains or cars.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Anijen said:

Just an FYI MTC's are dedicated for a place for the Savior to walk in just like temples, although they are not temples the sacredness is up there. I thought the triceratops was stanley?

All dinosaurs are named Stanley. Makes it very confusing.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

All dinosaurs are named Stanley. Makes it very confusing.

It is a family name. 

[Kenngo1969]

On 2/5/2020 at 12:57 PM, strappinglad said:

My understanding is the LEO rule is that if a perp with a knife is within 20 ft, deadly force is needed/allowed . 

I don't know that it's a rule.  I do know that, pursuant to their training, that's about the distance someone can cover as officers draw their weapons, take aim, and, if necessary, fire those weapons.  There's no rule that says that law enforcement must engage suspects in a fair fight simply because the latter are armed "only" with knives.  Then, too, someone can always throw a knife, and if he does that, and if he has enough training and/or practice to do so accurately, he's going to do as much damage (if not more) than he would by wielding it, and he's going to cover those 20 feet in far less time than he would if he did so under his own power.

The "rule" is pretty simple (and, really, there's not necessarily a distance limitation, except that the further away someone is from the officer and from anyone else, the more likely the imminence of the threat is to be questioned), that if someone draws a knife on an officer or on someone else, the officer draws his gun on the knife-wielding assailant.

While this piece discusses suspects who are armed with guns rather than with knives (ironically, it was prompted by another incident in which someone armed with a weapon encroached on property of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), it does, I think, analyze some of the same questions at issue here well:  https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2018/10/26/deadly-force/

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

All dinosaurs are named Stanley. Makes it very confusing.

They are?

P.S.: I love you, man!