Stargazer Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) On 2/8/2020 at 10:39 PM, 3DOP said: So Ahab took a lot of heat for mistaking the Temple for an MTC (Missionary Training Center). Ahab said this about an armed attacker who was killed by police, thinking the perpetrator was killed in the Temple: "We're all going to die sometime and I can think of worse ways to go. I wonder what his reception was like on the other side of the veil, considering there were likely some good spirits in that temple then who would be there to greet him." I am surprised no one has commented on Ahab's beliefs about murderous behavior and being killed by security if it had only been in a Temple. Surely it is inconsistent with LDS thought that it would be some kind of blessing for the attacker, if only he HAD been killed in a Temple? I think is definitely inconsistent with LDS thought. Being killed while breaking God's laws is a bad thing regardless of where it happens. But if I were to die while serving in the temple, I think I would be happy about it afterwards. I rather doubt I would get a medal for it, however. Edited February 16, 2020 by Stargazer 1
3DOP Posted February 16, 2020 Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) On 2/12/2020 at 12:59 PM, Stargazer said: I had written: "It is not just the worldly and atheists who doubt that there is any value, eternally or in the present, to suffering with patience. We need to remember that no one needs to try to enjoy the pain itself of course. Pain is an evil. But in joyful resignation to the good will of God, manfully desiring to be like our brother Jesus Christ, in full acceptance of the value of suffering our own passion, being nailed to our own lingering crosses, the Christian can pass in to eternity as an imitation of Christ." Stargazer, you replied: So... those who do not experience excruciating pain are somehow less virtuous? Is that why there were those who did horrendous things to themselves, like self-flagellation? Because they were trying to be like Jesus Christ? I am sorry, but passing to eternity while intentionally imitating Christ sounds rather blasphemous to me. It seems like we have already discussed the first two questions. The third question and your concern about possible blasphemy will be the subject of this post. Recall the question posed by Jesus to Saul as he lay on the road to Damascus after a light from heaven had prompted his fall to the ground. "And as he went on his journey, it came to pass that he drew nigh to Damascus; and suddenly a light from heaven shined round about him. And falling on the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad." (Acts 9:3-5) This was the future St. Paul's introductory catechesis in Christian ecclesiology. It was a lesson he learned very well, and its application is to be seen through all his writings. The first Gospel truth that Jesus taught Saul was about the unity that existed between Christ and the Church. God's Son had prayed to His Father before His crucifixion for a unity between the disciple of Christ and Christ, that is as perfect as the unity between the Father and the Son. What Christian would dare say that Jesus's prayer, just before His Passion and Death would be refused? "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; v. 21) That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world. Just Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee: and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have made known thy name to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them." (Jn 17:20-26) Some might object to what I am about to propose by saying that this prayer will be answered in eternity. Certainly it will be. But Jesus's words require that it must be answered now, in this life. Note verse 21, which I have marked for convenience. How is the world going to believe that the Father has sent the Son through this unity, if it doesn't happen until after the whole world is judged, in eternity? Jesus is praying not merely for unity in eternity, but for the very same temporal unity now, and why? "That the world may believe." Saul had experienced seeing the incomprehensibly composed and resigned suffering and death of St. Stephen, even as he asked forgiveness for his murderers. When he fell to the ground and heard the Lord ask why he was persecuting the Person whose voice he heard, Saul must have been astonished to hear Jesus say that it was He that Saul had been persecuting. Jesus adds a little bit to Saul's discomfiture, by reminding Saul that his conscience has been shaken a bit. Jesus knew that in spite of his determination to continue a mission of persecution of these disciples of the Crucified One, Saul was interiorly conflicted by what he had seen and heard, and now Saul is informed that this mysterious unity for which Christ prayed was fulfilled in the man he had helped to stone to death. What Saul did for or against Jesus's disciples, He did for or against Jesus. The same truth applies to everyone because of this bond which exists between Christ and His Church. We are reminded here of Jesus's words about the future Judgment, when some will be pleasantly surprised to discover that they offered "Christ" refreshment and hospitality unknowingly, asking when they did this. Of course, they did it to His disciples, incorporated in to His own Body. "Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me." (Mt. 25:34-40) One of the practical applications of this mystical unity between Christ and His Church is that when a member of what we call the Mystical Body obeys Christ, it is important to attribute this act to Christ rather than the member. It might be true in some sense to say that the "arm" of Patrick Mahomes helped Kansas City to win the Super Bowl, but more often it would simply be attributed to Patrick. It would be unimaginable to disassociate the arm of Patrick Mahomes from the person named Patrick. It is in this respect that the members of Christ's Mystical Body are encouraged to follow, imitate, and emulate Christ, not on their own, but with Christ and in Christ, continuing His sufferings on earth in a unity which either make the unbeliever scoff at such foolishness, or the potential convert marvel at such a wonder. There are multiple forms of value then in suffering with Christ and in Christ in this life, and as a witness to the world is paramount, but it is also a benefit to the rest of the Church, bringing glory to God, and remission of the sins for which Christ did not pay. That last comment will be the most difficult for the non-Catholic, but I will try to make it a little more palatable. Indeed, I have not heard of a better way to deal with a text that seems problematic for those who believe that there was value in the sufferings of Christ, but not value in the sufferings of Christ's disciples. Tomorrow or the next day I will hope to bring a lot more Scriptural evidence to bear in support of the Catholic view that we suffer in Jesus Christ so that He can conform us to His likeness, and for other good reasons. For now, I will offer one text of St. Paul's with a brief comment about Col. 1:24, 25: "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfill the word of God." Note that St. Paul rejoices because his sufferings are for the Colossians. He is delighted with his ministry of extending the suffering of Christ in himself, in his flesh, because there is something still "wanting". Through the Church, of which Christ is the Head, Paul assures us that it is the will of Jesus our Head, that we, united mystically with Him, may "fill up those things that are wanting". Obviously, Christ did all that He was asked to do by the Father and said truthfully, "It is finished," at the conclusion of His glorious Passion. Christ had completed His task of obeying the Father. Now, in Christ, with Christ, and through Christ, it remains for the members of the Church to "fill up those things that are wanting", by joyfully fulfilling our own obedient passion and death. Death and suffering had been inevitable evils before Christ from which there is no escape. But now we see that in Jesus Christ, even these bitter reminders of the Fall of our first parents, can be turned in to gladness, knowing that by so doing we are dwelling more and more securely with our dearest Friend, Brother, and Lord Jesus Christ. As an aside, I would point out that the disciples of Christ are admonished to understand all things in this light. If before our final acts of suffering and death, we have been habituated to offering in Christ our seemingly trivial sufferings in Christ, we will be more ready to offer our deaths and final acts. There are no trivial acts to the Christian. Each day offers a wide array of ways to meritoriously unite our "baby sufferings" with Christ. A broken fingernail, a burned out headlight, our glasses fogging up, an irritating in-law and zillions of other opportunities to be united with Jesus are missed because our thoughts are elsewhere than upon our purpose for still being here, when our true home is not here. Comments on this post are welcome, but I will probably continue at the next opportunity to offer further Scripture in support of what the disciple of Christ desires who gains a distinct knowledge of this stupendous privilege we are given of making every one of our own works, prayers, and sufferings, large or small, into a crown filled jewel to one day cast at the feet of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom we owe everything, for we know our unworthiness to imitate the King of kings. But He enjoins us to take up our cross and follow Him. He will never think it blasphemy unless we begin to proudly take credit as though we could do anything good of ourselves. May God forbid. Any of our good works or salutary sufferings, are totally incorporated in to our unity with Christ and only attributable to His grace and goodness. The "collect", pronounced "callekt", is a prayer in the Traditional Latin Mass recited today which illustrates why a true imitation of Christ is only possible through a humility that resolutely denies any credit to ourselves. The collect for Sexagesima Sunday begins as follows and is a necessary foundational principle for any value to be discerned in Christian suffering. "O God, who seest that we place no confidence in anything we do..." 3DOP Edited February 16, 2020 by 3DOP
3DOP Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) On 2/12/2020 at 12:59 PM, Stargazer said: So... those who do not experience excruciating pain are somehow less virtuous? Is that why there were those who did horrendous things to themselves, like self-flagellation? Because they were trying to be like Jesus Christ? I am sorry, but passing to eternity while intentionally imitating Christ sounds rather blasphemous to me. I had written this: It is not just the worldly and atheists who doubt that there is any value, eternally or in the present, to suffering with patience. We need to remember that no one needs to try to enjoy the pain itself of course. Pain is an evil. But in joyful resignation to the good will of God, manfully desiring to be like our brother Jesus Christ, in full acceptance of the value of suffering our own passion, being nailed to our own lingering crosses, the Christian can pass in to eternity as an imitation of Christ. Stargazer, you replied with the quoted portion: I have been taught that it is more virtuous to lovingly accept an unavoidable slight irritation as God's good will for us than it would be to lose one's patience and peace of mind at a time of extreme sorrow or excruciating pain. It is kind of funny, don't count me in on this crowd, but the Catholic saints, meaning those who exhibit extraordinary virtue, seem to be pretty unanimous in taking delight in suffering. I'll give some passages to show why such a point of view makes sense of the faith. A lesser value for abasing oneself in suffering is indeed to unite our sufferings with Christ, as Col. 1:24 explained above, to "fill up those things that are wanting" in Christ's atonement. The way Catholics approach this question of something lacking or wanting is that Christ paid the eternal punishment with an infinite sacrifice, but He did not will at that time to pay for the temporal punishment for sins. He leaves that task to his disciples, but they can do nothing without Him. Regarding your question about flagellation, it is possible that unguided and proud souls have believed that more pain equals more virtue. One should never, ever try something like that without spiritual guidance. Later on down you say something about a cat-o-nine tails. Catholics do foolish things. I am sorry this phenomenon has scandalized you, but I can assure you that the Church would never approve of anything like using a "cat" on oneself. The Church abhors these excesses which happen when overzealous souls take it upon themselves to suffer "their way". The wise way, we are taught is to suffer with faith and hope and love in the sufferings that will come to all of us without any need to look for anything extraordinary. There is a terrible custom in the Philippines which the Church has tried to suppress. People actually are crucified on Good Friday without permission from a priest. It is forbidden by the Church. One man has been crucified every Good Friday for around thirty years. He says it doesn't hurt much anymore and intends to "retire" when he turns sixty in the next year or two. Are these people Catholics? Yes they are. They are disobedient Catholics. You must not believe that the Church has ever approved of such actions. Self-flagellation with a spiritual guide, for the purpose of taming the flesh without harming the health of the body is something a Catholic must defend. It was at least a not uncommon practice in monasteries, at one time. I would not be shocked, and would in fact be encouraged, if I found out that it is still used in Traditional monasteries that still think that the flesh should be disciplined instead of pampered. Jesus did not choose to be scourged in answer to your last question. Again, I will not answer for those who did "horrendous things to themselves" without ecclesiastical permission and guidance. I suppose they thought they were trying to be like Christ, but in a warped way. You did not like my remarks about "passing to eternity while intentionally imitating Christ." You said it sounded "rather blasphemous to me." Strong words, but well appreciated. I will close now with some biblical texts, that could possibly sound equally blasphemous, except that they are Scriptures that are in the LDS canon, not Ecclesiasticus this time. So...maybe you have an interpretation of these that I haven't considered, or maybe LDS would say they are mistranslated or even replaced by further revelation. In any case, I am hoping I can temper somewhat your negative impression so far received of why and how Catholics are encouraged to imitate Jesus Christ, particularly in their sufferings. 1) "For the Spirit Himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us." (Rom. 8:16-18) If we would be glorified with Jesus, we must suffer, and we are assured that even the most excruciating sufferings we can think of will be well, well worth it. The reward far exceeds the loss. 2) "And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me. [8] For which thing thrice I besought the Lord, that it might depart from me. [9] And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me." (2 Cor. 12:7-9) St. Paul isn't seeking pain. He prayed to get rid of it! A perfectly good response to an affliction of any kind. But there is a weird paradox that God showed the Apostle. Weakness and infirmity are prerequisites to the "power of Christ". 3) "A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him." (2 Tim. 2:11, 12) More paradox. 4) "For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God. For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps." (1 Pet. 2:19-21) Jesus said we had to take up our crosses and follow. Whatever be our vocation, our state of life, we will suffer. It is our calling. We can do it as Christ did, obediently, as One who had power to be released from all His sufferings. We can imitate His humility, the meek and humble of heart. But we can not avoid suffering as Jesus could have. Surely we ought to emulate His example than anyone else that has ever lived? There are plenty of people without faith who grow bitter in their sufferings. Is there a middle, better option, between imitating Christ when we have to suffer, or imitating those who succumb to despair? The Stoics? The British "stiff uppah lip"? Why would we not perhaps have the English bravery with the consolation that we accept our momentary weakness and sorrows, like Jesus, "who for the joy that was set before Him, endured the Cross, despising the pain" (paraphrase from a late chapter of Hebrews). 5) "Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins: That now he may live the rest of his time in the flesh, not after the desires of men, but according to the will of God." (I Pet. 4:1, 2) Many, many valuable forms of suffering do not involve the body, the flesh, and physical afflictions. But physical suffering is salutary when lovingly offered back to the good God who made it a gift for us. The whole chapter is excellent. In verse 8, St. Peter reminds the faithful of how even the most world weary sinner can be comforted by the fact that he can always find spiritual solace for himself and for others in acts of charity: "But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins." (v.8) That is not the atonement, but Christian charity "among yourselves" still finding "a multitude of sins" that need to be covered. 6) "Dearly beloved, think not strange the burning heat which is to try you, as if some new thing happened to you; But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy." (1 Pet. 4:12, 13) There is another passage somewhere that in the Catholic Douay-Rheims speaks of the opportunity to partake in "the fellowship of His sufferings." I imagine this happy, happy band of fellows in heaven, all of whom went through rigorous trials together in Christ. It reminds me of the scene from Shakespeare in Henry V, when before the great battle of Agincourt, King Harry makes his famous speech (well Shakespeare came up with the words!) about how happy they would all be every year on that day, the Feast of St. Crispian, until their dying day, to strip their sleeves and show the scars they gained on that battlefield. He then talks of their union of suffering, and the bond that will tie them to each other from King to the lowliest commoner who fights that day. "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers", said the king. Maybe that doesn't help you...I love it...As King Henry invited his troops to be his brother, so does the King of earth and heaven, to those who would bravely face the day of suffering and even death, believing that indeed, after a truly short time, they "may also be glad with exceeding joy", and that forever! 7) "But the God of all grace, who hath called us into his eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, will himself perfect you, and confirm you, and establish you." (1 Pet. 5:10) I skipped verse 19 of chapter 4, a veritable treatise by St. Peter on the value of suffering well. We will suffer, either well, or ill. Jesus showed us how to do it well. He was called to suffer being able to deliver Himself from it, to give example to us who cannot escape it. This is what I meant above, in questioning whether Christians today have been sufficiently reflective on the "value of suffering". Assuredly, the follower of Christ can make better use of it than those who disdain it and despise and flee in vain from suffering. Just as God brought great good of Adam's happy fault (the felix culpa of the Easter Vigil), so He brings great good out of what sin brought in to the world, suffering, with the assurance that these momentary trials, intense though they may be for a time, will pass away forever. May all good Christians take courage in light of our most privileged and glorious calling, to imitate the King of kings in His lowliness! Regards, Rory Edited February 21, 2020 by 3DOP
Stargazer Posted February 21, 2020 Posted February 21, 2020 22 hours ago, 3DOP said: I had written this: It is not just the worldly and atheists who doubt that there is any value, eternally or in the present, to suffering with patience. We need to remember that no one needs to try to enjoy the pain itself of course. Pain is an evil. But in joyful resignation to the good will of God, manfully desiring to be like our brother Jesus Christ, in full acceptance of the value of suffering our own passion, being nailed to our own lingering crosses, the Christian can pass in to eternity as an imitation of Christ. Stargazer, you replied with the quoted portion: I have been taught that it is more virtuous to lovingly accept an unavoidable slight irritation as God's good will for us than it would be to lose one's patience and peace of mind at a time of extreme sorrow or excruciating pain. It is kind of funny, don't count me in on this crowd, but the Catholic saints, meaning those who exhibit extraordinary virtue, seem to be pretty unanimous in taking delight in suffering. I'll give some passages to show why such a point of view makes sense of the faith. A lesser value for abasing oneself in suffering is indeed to unite our sufferings with Christ, as Col. 1:24 explained above, to "fill up those things that are wanting" in Christ's atonement. The way Catholics approach this question of something lacking or wanting is that Christ paid the eternal punishment with an infinite sacrifice, but He did not will at that time to pay for the temporal punishment for sins. He leaves that task to his disciples, but they can do nothing without Him. Regarding your question about flagellation, it is possible that unguided and proud souls have believed that more pain equals more virtue. One should never, ever try something like that without spiritual guidance. Later on down you say something about a cat-o-nine tails. Catholics do foolish things. I am sorry this phenomenon has scandalized you, but I can assure you that the Church would never approve of anything like using a "cat" on oneself. The Church abhors these excesses which happen when overzealous souls take it upon themselves to suffer "their way". The wise way, we are taught is to suffer with faith and hope and love in the sufferings that will come to all of us without any need to look for anything extraordinary. There is a terrible custom in the Philippines which the Church has tried to suppress. People actually are crucified on Good Friday without permission from a priest. It is forbidden by the Church. One man has been crucified every Good Friday for around thirty years. He says it doesn't hurt much anymore and intends to "retire" when he turns sixty in the next year or two. Are these people Catholics? Yes they are. They are disobedient Catholics. You must not believe that the Church has ever approved of such actions. Self-flagellation with a spiritual guide, for the purpose of taming the flesh without harming the health of the body is something a Catholic must defend. It was at least a not uncommon practice in monasteries, at one time. I would not be shocked, and would in fact be encouraged, if I found out that it is still used in Traditional monasteries that still think that the flesh should be disciplined instead of pampered. Jesus did not choose to be scourged in answer to your last question. Again, I will not answer for those who did "horrendous things to themselves" without ecclesiastical permission and guidance. I suppose they thought they were trying to be like Christ, but in a warped way. You did not like my remarks about "passing to eternity while intentionally imitating Christ." You said it sounded "rather blasphemous to me." Strong words, but well appreciated. I will close now with some biblical texts, that could possibly sound equally blasphemous, except that they are Scriptures that are in the LDS canon, not Ecclesiasticus this time. So...maybe you have an interpretation of these that I haven't considered, or maybe LDS would say they are mistranslated or even replaced by further revelation. In any case, I am hoping I can temper somewhat your negative impression so far received of why and how Catholics are encouraged to imitate Jesus Christ, particularly in their sufferings. 1) "For the Spirit Himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us." (Rom. 8:16-18) If we would be glorified with Jesus, we must suffer, and we are assured that even the most excruciating sufferings we can think of will be well, well worth it. The reward far exceeds the loss. 2) "And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me. [8] For which thing thrice I besought the Lord, that it might depart from me. [9] And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me." (2 Cor. 12:7-9) St. Paul isn't seeking pain. He prayed to get rid of it! A perfectly good response to an affliction of any kind. But there is a weird paradox that God showed the Apostle. Weakness and infirmity are prerequisites to the "power of Christ". 3) "A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him." (2 Tim. 2:11, 12) More paradox. 4) "For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God. For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps." (1 Pet. 2:19-21) Jesus said we had to take up our crosses and follow. Whatever be our vocation, our state of life, we will suffer. It is our calling. We can do it as Christ did, obediently, as One who had power to be released from all His sufferings. We can imitate His humility, the meek and humble of heart. But we can not avoid suffering as Jesus could have. Surely we ought to emulate His example than anyone else that has ever lived? There are plenty of people without faith who grow bitter in their sufferings. Is there a middle, better option, between imitating Christ when we have to suffer, or imitating those who succumb to despair? The Stoics? The British "stiff uppah lip"? Why would we not perhaps have the English bravery with the consolation that we accept our momentary weakness and sorrows, like Jesus, "who for the joy that was set before Him, endured the Cross, despising the pain" (paraphrase from a late chapter of Hebrews). 5) "Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins: That now he may live the rest of his time in the flesh, not after the desires of men, but according to the will of God." (I Pet. 4:1, 2) Many, many valuable forms of suffering do not involve the body, the flesh, and physical afflictions. But physical suffering is salutary when lovingly offered back to the good God who made it a gift for us. The whole chapter is excellent. In verse 8, St. Peter reminds the faithful of how even the most world weary sinner can be comforted by the fact that he can always find spiritual solace for himself and for others in acts of charity: "But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins." (v.8) That is not the atonement, but Christian charity "among yourselves" still finding "a multitude of sins" that need to be covered. 6) "Dearly beloved, think not strange the burning heat which is to try you, as if some new thing happened to you; But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy." (1 Pet. 4:12, 13) There is another passage somewhere that in the Catholic Douay-Rheims speaks of the opportunity to partake in "the fellowship of His sufferings." I imagine this happy, happy band of fellows in heaven, all of whom went through rigorous trials together in Christ. It reminds me of the scene from Shakespeare in Henry V, when before the great battle of Agincourt, King Harry makes his famous speech (well Shakespeare came up with the words!) about how happy they would all be every year on that day, the Feast of St. Crispian, until their dying day, to strip their sleeves and show the scars they gained on that battlefield. He then talks of their union of suffering, and the bond that will tie them to each other from King to the lowliest commoner who fights that day. "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers", said the king. Maybe that doesn't help you...I love it...As King Henry invited his troops to be his brother, so does the King of earth and heaven, to those who would bravely face the day of suffering and even death, believing that indeed, after a truly short time, they "may also be glad with exceeding joy", and that forever! 7) "But the God of all grace, who hath called us into his eternal glory in Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a little, will himself perfect you, and confirm you, and establish you." (1 Pet. 5:10) I skipped verse 19 of chapter 4, a veritable treatise by St. Peter on the value of suffering well. We will suffer, either well, or ill. Jesus showed us how to do it well. He was called to suffer being able to deliver Himself from it, to give example to us who cannot escape it. This is what I meant above, in questioning whether Christians today have been sufficiently reflective on the "value of suffering". Assuredly, the follower of Christ can make better use of it than those who disdain it and despise and flee in vain from suffering. Just as God brought great good of Adam's happy fault (the felix culpa of the Easter Vigil), so He brings great good out of what sin brought in to the world, suffering, with the assurance that these momentary trials, intense though they may be for a time, will pass away forever. May all good Christians take courage in light of our most privileged and glorious calling, to imitate the King of kings in His lowliness! Regards, Rory Thanks for your responses. I do recognize the value of "shared stripes" as it were, in the struggle on earth for honor in the Gospel, and demonstrating to all that we will endure in faith no matter the earthly cost. I just look very askance at the seeking out of such stripes. And I can see that you hold similar views. What is valuable, I believe, is that we suffer well whatever it is we must suffer in this life. As the Lord told Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail: "My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes." DC 121:7-8 I remember that when my late wife was facing her final trial in this life that she never wavered in her faith in God, and never complained that she was being treated unfairly in her suffering, but just dealt with it in good spirits. Her principle concern was for her children, that they remember the blessings of the Lord in their life, and that they knew that she loved them. Her adversity was but a small moment, and I expect that God will say to her ultimately, "Well done, good and faithful servant ... enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
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