Premortal Lives

[JLHPROF]

I was thread banned (first time in years) for asking whether our actions in the premortal existence had impact on our lives here.  The ban said this goes against Church teachings.  My question was not meant to reflect race.

(I was also accused of promoting racist teachings, which I object to and was not my meaning but I'll let it slide).

So do we not believe the premortal existence had any relationship to our mortal placement?  Abraham 3:22-23 and Alma 13:3 would indicate they do.

[Robert F. Smith]

40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I was thread banned (first time in years) for asking whether our actions in the premortal existence had impact on our lives here.  The ban said this goes against Church teachings.  My question was not meant to reflect race.

(I was also accused of promoting racist teachings, which I object to and was not my meaning but I'll let it slide).

So do we not believe the premortal existence had any relationship to our mortal placement?  Abraham 3:22-23 and Alma 13:3 would indicate they do.

Of course there are noble and great ones who are sent strategically into a particular place and time in accordance with the will of the Lord.  Those individuals presumably have something extra in their makeup which is likely to guide them more strongly, but it isn't clear just how that something functions.  There are also numerous stillbirths and youth who die before the age of accountability, and who are then automatically passed on into exaltation.  Again, we don't know why.

We are not told that any of that is based on "actions" during premortal life.  It could as well be something in our native spark of intelligence -- that permanent, eternal part of our makeup which is coeternal with God.  In fact, Hugh Nibley used to argue against a racist connection by noting that Black people have had to survive in a much harsher environment than Europeans, so that natural selection should make them far more intelligent and capable than their Caucasian counterparts.  Joseph Smith said

Quote

Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves, mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on.  History of the Church, 5:217.

 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I was thread banned (first time in years) for asking whether our actions in the premortal existence had impact on our lives here.  The ban said this goes against Church teachings.  My question was not meant to reflect race.

(I was also accused of promoting racist teachings, which I object to and was not my meaning but I'll let it slide).

So do we not believe the premortal existence had any relationship to our mortal placement?  Abraham 3:22-23 and Alma 13:3 would indicate they do.

This is one of the things which makes the Book of Abraham important, and why it was only to be shown to believers. The Church has not accepted this yet, and those who have tried to teach anything about it, have been accused of teaching doctrines of Satan, etc. But because the Church has refused to believe their scriptures, it has promulgated what I believe to be preposterous interpretations to explain certain scriptures - like this is the only world past and future where our Savior came and was killed, because we are the only ones "wicked enough" to do this... So somehow the atonement on this world is infinite enough to apply to all other worlds which have been and ever will be.....

Anyway if you are willing to believe this, be prepared to be ostracized, ridiculed, etc. But, yes, it is true. I am sorry you got banned over it. It is exactly how the prophets became foreordained... The fact that you are willing to entertain the notion is commendable. 

[BlueDreams]

I don’t think most in the very general sense think that who we were in premortal life did not effect where we were sent or what our divine callings are. The problem both in that thread and in life in general is to try to decide who did what to end up where. And that’s where our assumptions about what it means to be great and noble can quickly slide into elitism and social hierarchies that I don’t think god particularly care about. And in that specific  topic, it can very quickly veer racist or nonsensically patronizing as they try to use this to assuage the problem of being cut off from God because of who our parents are or what our ethnicity is.

IMHO I think we’d all likely get at least a few answers wrong as to who were the great and nobles mentioned for our day. Or even in the past.

with luv,

BD

Edited January 20, 2020 by BlueDreams

[CV75]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I was thread banned (first time in years) for asking whether our actions in the premortal existence had impact on our lives here.  The ban said this goes against Church teachings.  My question was not meant to reflect race.

(I was also accused of promoting racist teachings, which I object to and was not my meaning but I'll let it slide).

So do we not believe the premortal existence had any relationship to our mortal placement?  Abraham 3:22-23 and Alma 13:3 would indicate they do.

We all chose Christ and sided with Him in the war in heaven (haven chosen good and exercised faith in that sphere), so we are here with bodies. The devils went with Satan, and they are here too but without bodies. Acts 17: 26-28 indicates the Lord made our mortal arrangements as optimal as necessary ("haply") that we might feel after Him. I do not think He used a merit system, or that intelligence, faithfulness, nobility and greatness can be seen as "merits" in light of Adam's Fall and the Lord's Atonement. We are one eternal family, each with something essential to contribute to the whole. So I think even Christ did not merit His position, rather He humbly volunteered, was chosen, and submitted.

[nuclearfuels]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I was thread banned (first time in years) for asking whether our actions in the premortal existence had impact on our lives here.  The ban said this goes against Church teachings.  My question was not meant to reflect race.

(I was also accused of promoting racist teachings, which I object to and was not my meaning but I'll let it slide).

So do we not believe the premortal existence had any relationship to our mortal placement?  Abraham 3:22-23 and Alma 13:3 would indicate they do.

I believe what you're referencing is doctrine, at least what I was taught growing up.

Not sure how to reconcile it with my total lack of leadership callings but...here we are....

[nuclearfuels]

58 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I do not think He used a merit system, or that intelligence, faithfulness, nobility and greatness can be seen as "merits" in light of Adam's Fall and the Lord's Atonement.

President Benson said, “While our generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the earth by flood, there is a major difference this time: God has saved for the final inning some of His stronger and most valiant children, who will help bear off the kingdom triumphantly. … You are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/04/news-of-the-church/you-are-a-marked-generation-president-benson-tells-students?lang=eng

[strappinglad]

Do our actions in THIS life reflect our position in the next? If so, then logically  , our actions in the first estate reflect our positions now. Could be inversely proportional as in the most valiant/intelligent/whatever end up in the slums of Mumbai and us apathetical /.lazy ones get to live on easy street.  Just spitballin'

 

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Do our actions in THIS life reflect our position in the next? If so, then logically  , our actions in the first estate reflect our positions now.

That's my belief.  Apparently it's offensive to suggest we don't all start with an exactly level spiritual playing field, or even worse, that some are more favored by God at birth. But yet it's ok to believe that will be the case in the next life.

Despite all the scripture and prophetic teachings that say just that.

Edited January 21, 2020 by JLHPROF

[e-eye]

I think much of who we are here has to do with who we were there. I think this life also shapes us as we are told that what we do here will affect on the advantages of the next life. 
 

many prophets have said that Heavenly Father has saved some of his most choice sons and daughters for these last days.  That’s not new. 
 

if you have the priesthood today it’s because you were righteousness enough to have it in the pre-exsistance. 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, e-eye said:

if you have the priesthood today it’s because you were righteousness enough to have it in the pre-exsistance. 

That's how I read Alma 13 and D&C 86.

[strappinglad]

I notice that when Christ prays , He thanks the Father for those the Father has given Him. Interesting turn of phrase .

[Hamba Tuhan]

29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Apparently it's offensive to suggest we don't all start with an exactly level spiritual playing field, or even worse, that some are more favored by God at birth.

There is nothing wrong with this belief. It starts to get offensive when, in the manner of the Zoramites, you conclude that obviously you are one of the more favoured ones ... or that others clearly aren't.

We simply don't see as God sees. His thoughts and ways are both higher than ours, and He knows how to bless each child individually. What looks like a curse often turns out to be a blessing and vice versa.

One of the men whom I baptised as a missionary was diagnosed with cancer at the age of 28. Was this because God loved him less than he loves me?

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

There is nothing wrong with this belief. It starts to get offensive when, in the manner of the Zoramites, you conclude that obviously you are one of the more favoured ones ... or that others clearly aren't.

I've made no such claim.  Only that the doctrine is scriptural and true.

I don't assign hierarchies to anyone.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I've made no such claim.  Only that the doctrine is scriptural and true.

I don't assign hierarchies to anyone.

But that is a risk inherent in the doctrine, one too frequently realised. And this is one of the factors leading to the sensitivity you seem to have opened this thread to rail against.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I've made no such claim.  Only that the doctrine is scriptural and true.

I don't assign hierarchies to anyone.

How is saying the more righteous in the preexistence get the priesthood in this life not assigning a hierarchy?

[strappinglad]

One of the problems was the choice of the word " church " . That word carries baggage. There is automatically an " us vs them " meaning and implies that we in our organization are the good ones. Come on mfb and  others , can you find a better one ? 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

President Benson said, “While our generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the earth by flood, there is a major difference this time: God has saved for the final inning some of His stronger and most valiant children, who will help bear off the kingdom triumphantly. … You are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/04/news-of-the-church/you-are-a-marked-generation-president-benson-tells-students?lang=eng

Yes, I can see how people might take this as merit-based, but I see it in terms of, "For of him unto whom much is given much is required [both prospectively and retroactively]..." Our strengths and valiance are gifts reliant upon those who led the way for us (Father and Christ). We would not have been chosen if we did not humbly volunteer and submit. Spiritual strength and valiance are accompanied by gratitude, not a sense of merit.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Yes, I can see how people might take this as merit-based, but I see it in terms of, "For of him unto whom much is given much is required [both prospectively and retroactively]..." Our strengths and valiance are gifts reliant upon those who led the way for us (Father and Christ). We would not have been chosen if we did not humbly volunteer and submit. Spiritual strength and valiance are accompanied by gratitude, not a sense of merit.

I don't see why we need to separate the two.  Surely God will use those for Apostles who have previously proven themselves as Bishops, Stake Presidents, or Seventies.  Those who have proven their humility, spiritual strength and earned the trust of God.

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of the men whom I baptised as a missionary was diagnosed with cancer at the age of 28. Was this because God loved him less than he loves me?

Did he die at that young age?  If so, I think it might have been the other way around. He had already proven himself superior, was needed in the Spirit World, and the Lord took him out of need for his talents.  You, on the other hand, still needed some polish put on. 🙂  

I am convinced that God loves each and every one of us more than we can possibly understand at this point.  And we all have individual courses to take.  And every single one of us is capable of exaltation.  

[JAHS]

People have speculated about this over the centuries, and mostly all we have are a few hints from the scriptures and prophets that there might have been be some reason for some people being placed in a certain place or condition on earth.   Of course we know that people have been foreordained to fulfill certain roles in God's kingdom on earth (Abr 3: 22-23, D&C 138: 55).

In Acts we read:
"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:26)

So according to Paul many spirits may have been foreordained to specific nations and generations ("bounds of habitation"), as well as perhaps to families and to varied assignments, work, or missions on earth. Our pre-mortal spirits were just as different there as people are here, which might be a factor in determining when and under what conditions we are sent to earth.

We also know from the scriptures:
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (Alma 13:28-29)

God will not test us beyond our ability, which might mean that He will not send our spirits into a family or condition on earth that we cannot handle, based on who we were in the pre-mortal life.
 

[Calm]

8 hours ago, JAHS said:

God will not test us beyond our ability, which might mean that He will not send our spirits into a family or condition on earth that we cannot handle, based on who we were in the pre-mortal life.
 

I also believe that this means beyond our ability to recover from after having access to the Atonement postmortality, so one shouldn't judge another as choosing pleasure or wickedness or whatever over the Gospel if they reject the Church or lose faith.  I have just seen too many I can't see as having a fair chance at knowing what the truth of the Gospel is as well as the inability to make the best choice each time...which would mean we are all failing our tests if nothing in this life is too much for us.

For example, a child who grew up in a family of drug addicts or compulsive eaters....they are not choosing with agency imo if they too become addicted or compulsive and thus sinning in their mistreatment of their body.  The test continues until postmortality when they learn both the purpose and the skill of treating themselves and their bodies appropriately, with respect and care...and then they choose to desire to do so or they choose not to care.  I see that as what God promises won't be beyond our ability.

This means to me the "test" started preexistence and mortality is just a continuation until judgment day, the final.  I wonder though if it is this grade's finals or actual graduation time.  Maybe we have already had several judgment days and will continue to have several more through the eternities.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Calm

[CA Steve]

I just know that in the pre-existence I was able to pass the ladder climbing test.

[Ahab]

On 1/20/2020 at 12:46 PM, JLHPROF said:

I was thread banned (first time in years) for asking whether our actions in the premortal existence had impact on our lives here.  The ban said this goes against Church teachings.  My question was not meant to reflect race.

(I was also accused of promoting racist teachings, which I object to and was not my meaning but I'll let it slide).

So do we not believe the premortal existence had any relationship to our mortal placement?  Abraham 3:22-23 and Alma 13:3 would indicate they do.

Definitely had, but I don't know that we can know or figure out how, now, in all cases.  I think we could probably agree that our personality is a direct result of how we developed, or how we were, before we came down here, but that wouldn't necessarily be manifest down here. And some who might have had some advantages if they had been born in particular circumstances may have chosen a more challenging path simply to try to learn from those experiences, preferring things be hard rather than easy, maybe.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I just know that in the pre-existence I was able to pass the ladder climbing test.

Well, sure, that was way easy back then, but try being born with brain damage and you may not even recognize what a ladder is down here.