Demonic possession

[strappinglad]

What is your opinion on this? Is it all mental illness? Are there some true cases? What about scriptural stories? Any personal stories?

[ERMD]

I've been an emergency physician for 25 years and have seen the spectrum of mental illnesses.  Never have I had the impression that one of them was possessed.

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonic_possession 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bible-videos/videos/jesus-heals-a-possessed-man?lang=eng 

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/religion-and-american-culture/article/satan-mourns-naked-upon-the-earth-locating-mormon-possession-and-exorcism-rituals-in-the-american-religious-landscape-18301977/F6239202C070D319B6B97E5C01D8943D 

https://mi.byu.edu/mip-71-taysom/ .

[The Nehor]

I have had three cases in my life where I felt like I was dealing with unclean spirits doing more then the usual tempter routine. None of them were pleasant. In one situation I exorcised the location. In another one I was attacked and started convulsing and lost all fine motor control. In the last I invited one in. I do not recommend the last one.

I believe in possession but not as the media portray it. I strongly suspect devils do not have the power to take over a human body. I suspect they can coexist if allowed in and tolerated. If devils could grab bodies willy-nilly they would do it more often.

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by The Nehor

[JLHPROF]

I absolutely believe in this, although my experience is limited to the lesser "dark and evil spirit" phenomenon, not full possession.

Edited September 14, 2019 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I believe in possession but not as the Catholics portray it. I suspect devils do not have the power to take over a human body. I suspect they can coexist if allowed in and tolerated. If devils could grab bodies willy-nilly they would do it more often.

This.

Joseph Smith clearly taught those with bodies have authority/power over spirits, those without bodies.  Therefore possession would require a willing "host".

[Meadowchik]

I don't know. I did experience something akin to sleep paralysis when I was a seminary student: I'd come back home after early-morning seminary and try to catch a quick nap before school, and I'd feel this heavy, sinking, like I was moving, and I had to fight to wake up. When confronted with the concept of demons and evil spirits, I found it useful to claim the right to banish them from me. 

Now, although I like to maintain a space of uncertainty about the state of everything, I would also say that sometimes percieved demons or evil spirits can be our own fears. They might be a representation of our fear of our dual natures, but also of our confronting our own conditions of existence. In my opinion, the horror genre explores this extensively and some carefully-chosen works are very insightful.

[Kenngo1969]

I've said here before (including in the thread linked below) that, while I think that mental illness and demonic possession may be related in some cases and in some ways, they are distinct phenomena.  (I think the first can make one more susceptible to the second ... I have some experience with that, though it stops short of actual possession: I think my experience with mental illness has (or at least that it can) make one more susceptible to the influence of the Adversary.)

Anyway, see the link, including an interesting story from Mormon Mason, an erstwhile poster here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58972-exorcism/page/1/

 

[MustardSeed]

I do not believe in demon possession.  

[teddyaware]

44 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I do not believe in demon possession.  

Do you believe, as the scriptures abundantly teach, that Satan, and the fallen one-third spirit host of heaven who were cast out of with him, have the power to tempt and negatively influence the embodied sons and daughters of God who dwell on the earth?

Edited September 14, 2019 by teddyaware

[MiserereNobis]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This.

Joseph Smith clearly taught those with bodies have authority/power over spirits, those without bodies.  Therefore possession would require a willing "host".

I see that @The Nehor changed his original post from "Catholics portray it" to "media portray it" which is more accurate, though the media almost always puts it in a Catholic context because, hey, the devil speaks Latin, right?

What you say here is also the Catholic belief. Possession requires the person to willingly accept at some point. However, the demons are quite sly at slowly working towards this goal.

In the Catholic world, demons/devils are fallen angels. Angels are immaterial pure intelligence. Remember, we have levels/spectrums of being. God, of course is highest and pure being/intelligence, Angels are next. Thus, dealing with demons is dealing with something that is way more intelligent than we can ever be and has become malevolent. (I know the LDS have a different view; I'm just clarifying the Catholic position).

The diocesan exorcist is an acquaintance of mine -- we've had beers a couple of times. He doesn't really want to talk much about it, so I don't have any specifics to share, but he has said he's had some difficult experiences. He also said the pre-1970 rite of exorcism is more effective in his view.

A really interesting book is Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin. In it he researches 5 cases of demonic possession, interviewing those possessed and the the exorcists involved. You may or may not believe it, but it accurately depicts the Catholic view of possession and exorcism. It's also quietly creepy  There is a case of failed exorcism, too, when the demon defeated the priest.

I've not had any personal experiences.

 

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Do you believe, as the scriptures abundantly teach, that Satan, and the fallen one-third spirit host of heaven who were cast out of with him, have the power to tempt and negatively influence the embodied sons and daughters of God who dwell on the earth?

Not the same way you do, apparently. 

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I've said here before (including in the thread linked below) that, while I think that mental illness and demonic possession may be related in some cases and in some ways, they are distinct phenomena.  (I think the first can make one more susceptible to the second ... I have some experience with that, though it stops short of actual possession: I think my experience with mental illness has (or at least that it can) make one more susceptible to the influence of the Adversary.)

Anyway, see the link, including an interesting story from Mormon Mason, an erstwhile poster here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58972-exorcism/page/1/

 

Thanks for that.  I had not seen that thread before (that I remember anyway). @MustardSeed, did you have a look, and can you still say you don't believe in demon possession after doing so?

[Wellmired]

If they levitate ... well then- HA! that's a different matteR! /SARC!

[teddyaware]

47 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Not the same way you do, apparently. 

So then, it appears you actually do believe in some form of demon possession.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I see that @The Nehor changed his original post from "Catholics portray it" to "media portray it" which is more accurate, though the media almost always puts it in a Catholic context because, hey, the devil speaks Latin, right?

What you say here is also the Catholic belief. Possession requires the person to willingly accept at some point. However, the demons are quite sly at slowly working towards this goal.

In the Catholic world, demons/devils are fallen angels. Angels are immaterial pure intelligence. Remember, we have levels/spectrums of being. God, of course is highest and pure being/intelligence, Angels are next. Thus, dealing with demons is dealing with something that is way more intelligent than we can ever be and has become malevolent. (I know the LDS have a different view; I'm just clarifying the Catholic position).

The diocesan exorcist is an acquaintance of mine -- we've had beers a couple of times. He doesn't really want to talk much about it, so I don't have any specifics to share, but he has said he's had some difficult experiences. He also said the pre-1970 rite of exorcism is more effective in his view.

A really interesting book is Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin. In it he researches 5 cases of demonic possession, interviewing those possessed and the the exorcists involved. You may or may not believe it, but it accurately depicts the Catholic view of possession and exorcism. It's also quietly creepy  There is a case of failed exorcism, too, when the demon defeated the priest.

I've not had any personal experiences.

 

Yeah, sorry about that. I meant to say Catholic exorcisms as portrayed in the media or something to that effect but was typing too fast.

in my experience devils are gritty, ugly, hateful, and almost boring things. I suspect the portrayal of devils as debonair beings with a sense of humor is false. They have knowledge and can reason but reason is a weapon for them, a tool. They do not seem to me to be the kind of creature that would learn things and figure them out for the joy of knowledge. They are almost the remnants of a regressed human spirit. I expect they degrade with time to the point where the difference between two of them is their memories. I expect the personality fades away at some point. That is just my guesses based on my few experiences. I suspect their powers are much more limited in terms of interaction with the physical world. I did see something that might have been a demonic “miracle” but messing with those powers dulls the mind so much and makes things seem so unreal (even reality) that it may have just been an illusion or even self-deception.

In any case my encounters were not exciting. No real insights into eternity except that Outer Darkness is going to have boring, tedious, and hateful company.

Edited September 15, 2019 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So then, it appears you actually do believe in some form of demon possession.

I am guessing they believe it is some kind of mental illness or episode of something. I have run into someone who lost it and started insisting they were a devil. They were not.

I also recommend the advice of one of my Mission Presidents who was giving us counsel on dealing with evil spirits. He pointed out to try to make sure there was more then one evil spirit in the body before trying to use the Priesthood to expel it. If there is only one it would just kill the person if it works. He was being serious and tongue-in-cheek at the same time.

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They have knowledge and can reason but reason is a weapon for them, a tool.

This is also a very Catholic way of looking at it (not saying you're a crypto-Catholic, but if you ever want to come out and be baptized I'm here for you...). All good things that God has given humans, the things that make us in His image, including knowledge and reason, are turned on their head for demons and made a weapon. From my limited reading and discussion on the subject, that is the key when priests perform a successful exorcism. They flip those things around and the demon cannot help itself in showing its weakness believing it is a strength.

It's all very intriguing, but like I said earlier, the exorcist I know doesn't want to talk about it despite acknowledging it happens. That makes me think it isn't as intriguing when you experience it first hand.

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No real insights into eternity except that Outer Darkness is going to have boring, tedious, and hateful company.

I just wanted to add that my view of hell is this. Dante made a masterpiece of describing hell, but hell will not be a masterpiece, just a late night informercial on eternal repeat...

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is also a very Catholic way of looking at it (not saying you're a crypto-Catholic, but if you ever want to come out and be baptized I'm here for you...). All good things that God has given humans, the things that make us in His image, including knowledge and reason, are turned on their head for demons and made a weapon. From my limited reading and discussion on the subject, that is the key when priests perform a successful exorcism. They flip those things around and the demon cannot help itself in showing its weakness believing it is a strength.

It's all very intriguing, but like I said earlier, the exorcist I know doesn't want to talk about it despite acknowledging it happens. That makes me think it isn't as intriguing when you experience it first hand.

That is my thought on it assuming my encounters were what I thought them to be. Two were scary in a way (one I was attacked and other I think I was sort of possessed) but not in a thrilling or interesting way. If it was some form of possession the prevailing emotion I felt from it was fear. Generalized fear, as if the universe itself was repulsed by me and wanted me gone. Also a generalized hate of everything including itself/myself. In the attack I lost all fine motor control and could hear thought in my head that just wanted me destroyed. I sat down and just convulsed and felt like I was trying to expel something. Also, a lot of fear that felt foreign to me.

In the third I felt I had the upper hand and just dealt with it. In the third it was as if I could see something vile and filthy floating through the house and I used the Priesthood to expel it. The occupant was very grateful and he had every reason to hate me.

Again, I am not 100% sure on any of these. They are odd but the encounters tend to dull the mind and make senses less reliable or I was just delusional or being dramatic. I doubt it though.

Thanks for the compliment. My favorite possession narrative in fiction as it squares quite a bit with what I experienced is the one C.S. Lewis wrote in Perelandra, the second book in his science fiction trilogy. A devil hitches a ride with a wicked physicist/astronaut to Venus where it makes a play to tempt that world’s Eve to sin. The “sort of angels” from Mars send another human to counter this move.

[MustardSeed]

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So then, it appears you actually do believe in some form of demon possession.

Not sure what this dance is we are doing but no I do not believe in demon possession. I believe in mental illness. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I just wanted to add that my view of hell is this. Dante made a masterpiece of describing hell, but hell will not be a masterpiece, just a late night informercial on eternal repeat...

This for eternity:

Heaven is more like this:

 

[Stargazer]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

This for eternity:

Cringing...

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Heaven is more like this:

Outer darkness might be preferable...

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 9/14/2019 at 12:02 AM, strappinglad said:

What is your opinion on this? Is it all mental illness? Are there some true cases? What about scriptural stories? Any personal stories?

To quote the Prophet Joseph Smith, “Satan has no power over us, except that which we give him”. That being said, the Bible does cite instances of “Demonic Possessions”, so I believe they exist, and do think those who suffer from mental defect, biological or self imposed are at greater risk. But I also believe that even those with mental defects, can be shielded by righteous people around them. 

[JLHPROF]

On 9/14/2019 at 8:29 AM, MustardSeed said:

I do not believe in demon possession.  

Jesus did.