Demonic possession

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

LOL it should be, "I repent way too fast..."

Not possible, therefore, you were trying to be funny

[Calm]

3 hours ago, blarsen said:

Governments should only have the same power I have as an individual.  No more.  We just lend them the power to do certain things collectively that we can't manage as individuals. 

In no way should I have the right to arrest, judge, and throw people in jail just because I can (that it is possible for an individual to do this is demonstrated by long term kidnappings).  However, it is necessary for the collective to have the means to control the criminal elements of the collective.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, blarsen said:

And its a site where the controversies swirling around figures such as Rowe and Snuffer are discussed and analyzed almost endlessly, and a pretty good and reasonable consensus is normally reached regarding these types.

I find it quite useful for finding info on such things.  There are enough posters who do very thorough searches to collect information from many sources.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Calm

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not possible, therefore, you were trying to be funny

I'm afraid I cannot repent of not being funny...

 

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm afraid I cannot repent of not being funny...

 

Sure you can.  Just don't fail to be funny ever again!

Not that you need to repent of that, though.  Not being funny is not a sin, therefore, it's really not something that anyone needs to repent of.  But you could still try to be funny in the future and maybe even get to be an expert at being funny.

I know I'm not always funny when I am trying to be so I should probably either stop trying to be funny or just keep trying until I get really good at it without ever failing.

But then again, is that even possible?  Being funny requires a sense of humor and not everybody's sense of humor is the same so what may be funny to one person isn't necessarily funny to some other person.

I'll have to give this some more thought.  Being funny all of the time may not even be possible, for all that I know.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

Many of the posters there are so nutty!  I drop by the site just to get a laugh, although occasionally I get angry and have to take a break.  There are, seriously, posters there who claim they – are Jesus Christ (and quote made up, biblical-like scripture), are the Davidic Servant, are John the Baptist, post almost daily some obscure “revelation” from past prophets or apostles,  believe they know exactly how many days until “the end”, are followers of Denver Snuffer or Julie Rowe, believe the 12 are possessed with evil spirits because they “spend tithing money on billion-dollar malls", etc.  It can get crazy there, for sure.

I do appreciate Blarson doing his best to keep them in line, though. 

Yeah, I may need to head over there and have some fun.

6 hours ago, blarsen said:

You will also read counter arguments to the standard Confederate rationale espoused by some there, which does have some validity by the way.  There are a number of Texans and other southerners who post on the site, so no surprise there.  For me, it has been interesting to learn about this topic and their views.

Heck, Nehor, even John Newton repented.

Yeah, the state’s rights crap that I was fed in school. Of course the only state right they were really concerned about was their right to own people. Wanting to be free is a noble notion. Wanting to be free so you can use that freedom to make sure others are not free is a little less noble.

7 hours ago, blarsen said:

Means, multiple mortal probations, ~i.e., reincarnation of a particular type, etc., etc.  Just an example of the far ranging topics, political, religious or what have you, that you will find on this web site.

Governments should only have the same power I have as an individual.  No more.  We just lend them the power to do certain things collectively that we can't manage as individuals.  We don't give up this power. That is where the idea that governments derive power from the governed comes from.  This idea is delicious to me.  My self defense and defense of my family is an unalienable right I have from God, or Natural Law if you will, whatever it takes to ensure that defense.  This right isn't 'allowed' me by government.

At the same time, I'm very much against foreign wars that don't involve direct defense of the country.  Most people on this web site align with that view, which also fits the BoM very well on this subject.

Yeah, I do not believe that all government rights are derived from individual rights. I do not have the right to declare war or punish or imprison others or levy taxes.

[MiserereNobis]

On 9/24/2019 at 1:14 PM, blarsen said:

There was an article in a magazine called Psychedelic Review in the early '70s written by a psychiatrist who did a survey study of both schizophrenics and users of LSD.  His discovery was that in both groups there were a significant number that had visionary experiences or heard voices telling them to do good or suggestive of good things.  I.e., these were helpful, benign experiences.  But of those experiences suggestive of good or bad,  the majority were horrific visions or hearing voices encouraging them to do evil things.

The idea behind this study was that both schizophrenia and ingested LSD (gee whiz, Capt. Kirks's error) open up "the doors of perception" far beyond every-day normal perception.

I spent a good amount of time years ago engaged in psychedelic spirituality. I wasn't taking LSD, mushrooms, and peyote for "fun" but for explorations of consciousness and spirituality. One of the common ideas I'd hear from people is the conflation of schizophrenia and psychedelic experience (and even mystical experience). I do not agree they are the same. Ken Wilber coined the term "pre-/trans- fallacy" and I think it is helpful. Both psychotic experience and psychedelic/mystical experience are not rational. However, the former is pre-rational, while the later is trans-rational. Treating madmen the same as sages doesn't elevate the madmen, it lowers the sage. And there are major differences between psychotic and psychedelic experience, at least psychedelic experience as practiced deliberately, not some random dosing of someone or some person not knowing what they are getting into.

I spent some time with the Native American Church who are legally allowed to use peyote in their ceremonies. I think it would be stretching credulity to claim that what was going on in the teepee ceremony was similar to schizophrenia and I know that the members of the NAC would be insulted to be told that.

I do agree that psychedelics open up the doors of perception (thank you, William Blake, for such a great phrase). I do not believe mental illness does.

[longview]

32 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I do agree that psychedelics open up the doors of perception (thank you, William Blake, for such a great phrase). I do not believe mental illness does.

Or to brain damage.  The results of experimentation likely would be irreversible.  Can be tragic.

[MiserereNobis]

23 minutes ago, longview said:

Or to brain damage.  The results of experimentation likely would be irreversible.  Can be tragic.

CFR that members of the Native American Church have brain damage.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

CFR that members of the Native American Church have brain damage.

Here's some helpful info:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16271313

Quote

Abstract

BACKGROUND: 

Hallucinogens are widely used, both by drug abusers and by peoples of traditional cultures who ingest these substances for religious or healing purposes. However, the long-term residual psychological and cognitive effects of hallucinogens remain poorly understood.

METHODS: 

We recruited three groups of Navajo Native Americans, age 18-45: 1) 61 Native American Church members who regularly ingested peyote, a hallucinogen-containing cactus; 2) 36 individuals with past alcohol dependence, but currently sober at least 2 months; and 3) 79 individuals reporting minimal use of peyote, alcohol, or other substances. We administered a screening interview, the Rand Mental Health Inventory (RMHI), and ten standard neuropsychological tests of memory and attentional/executive functions.

RESULTS: 

Compared to Navajos with minimal substance use, the peyote group showed no significant deficits on the RMHI or any neuropsychological measures, whereas the former alcoholic group showed significant deficits (p < .05) on every scale of the RMHI and on two neuropsychological measures. Within the peyote group, total lifetime peyote use was not significantly associated with neuropsychological performance.

CONCLUSIONS: 

We found no evidence of psychological or cognitive deficits among Native Americans using peyote regularly in a religious setting. It should be recognized, however, that these findings may not generalize to illicit hallucinogen users.

 

[longview]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

CFR that members of the Native American Church have brain damage.

I was focusing mainly on LSD and Marijuana.  The statistics are increasingly disturbing.  I am much less familiar with the use of peyote, therefore its stats.  No one should argue for meth.  The effects are frightful.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, longview said:

I was focusing mainly on LSD and Marijuana.  The statistics are increasingly disturbing.  I am much less familiar with the use of peyote, therefore its stats.  No one should argue for meth.  The effects are frightful.

I tried LSD and marijuana before I joined the Church.  Several times.  And I inhaled.

Maybe that's the reason why I am the way I am now.  Nothing much wrong with me, though.  I feel terrific!

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, longview said:

No one should argue for meth.

Good thing meth isn't a psychedelic used for spiritual purposes  

[blarsen]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

In no way should I have the right to arrest, judge, and throw people in jail just because I can (that it is possible for an individual to do this is demonstrated by long term kidnappings).  However, it is necessary for the collective to have the means to control the criminal elements of the collective.

That is why we resort to 'government' in cases that may involve prevention of crime against individuals. We don't have the means individually to do this.  

But then you have to ask yourself, what do you do if the government is unresponsive, and the damage to you and your family is both severe and on-going?  The logical thing to do would be to approach the offender to convince him/her to cease and desist, and to seek direct compensation for the damage done; or at least to warn the perpetrator that he/she faces certain penalties if the offenses are repeated.  You then have to be prepared to administer the penalties.  And there are severe cases that might justify foregoing negotiating with the individual, where you take direct action to stop the depredations.

A very interesting topic, imo; worthy of its own thread.

[blarsen]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, I may need to head over there and have some fun.

Yeah, the state’s rights crap that I was fed in school. Of course the only state right they were really concerned about was their right to own people. Wanting to be free is a noble notion. Wanting to be free so you can use that freedom to make sure others are not free is a little less noble.

Yeah, I do not believe that all government rights are derived from individual rights. I do not have the right to declare war or punish or imprison others or levy taxes.

Yes, it’s a site where you can have some fun and perhaps be astonished at the same time.  For instance, as we speak, there are people doing ‘battle’ with a few flat-earthers.  A fascinating phenomenon.

And yes, the notion of ‘freedom’ can take different slants.  For instance, in Albion’s Seed, David Fischer, documents how the idea of freedom in Puritan New England had a completely different meaning than it did among certain Virginians, who were 2^nd, 3^rd, etc., sons of English landed gentry that came into that colony . . . which probably had a lot to do w/the justification of slavery.

Your statement about slavery vs. state’s rights is a bit too black-and-white for me, pardon the pun.  There really were other pertinent issues.

Ideally, the right to declare war under our Constitution, devolves on Congress, our elected officials, from the power inherently possessed by the people.  Again, ideally, this power rests on the right of individual self-defense which rolls up to the collective defense of the nation.

The “war on terror” is a deplorable concept, in my view.  It can be kept going for ever, and clandestinely tweaked in myriad, myriad ways by corrupt governments and their cohorts, to justify its ongoing implementation.

[blarsen]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I spent a good amount of time years ago engaged in psychedelic spirituality. I wasn't taking LSD, mushrooms, and peyote for "fun" but for explorations of consciousness and spirituality. One of the common ideas I'd hear from people is the conflation of schizophrenia and psychedelic experience (and even mystical experience). I do not agree they are the same. Ken Wilber coined the term "pre-/trans- fallacy" and I think it is helpful. Both psychotic experience and psychedelic/mystical experience are not rational. However, the former is pre-rational, while the later is trans-rational. Treating madmen the same as sages doesn't elevate the madmen, it lowers the sage. And there are major differences between psychotic and psychedelic experience, at least psychedelic experience as practiced deliberately, not some random dosing of someone or some person not knowing what they are getting into.

I spent some time with the Native American Church who are legally allowed to use peyote in their ceremonies. I think it would be stretching credulity to claim that what was going on in the teepee ceremony was similar to schizophrenia and I know that the members of the NAC would be insulted to be told that.

I do agree that psychedelics open up the doors of perception (thank you, William Blake, for such a great phrase). I do not believe mental illness does.

The point of the psychiatrist’s article was simply to catalogue similar experiences of the two groups not to equate them.  And, yes, maybe he picked up on the common idea of the similarity of some of the experiences of these groups, but he wasn’t advocating they be treated the same or saying they were on the same level.

But it’s interesting to note the very bad effect the CIA’s administration of LSD in the MK-ULTRA program had on some unwitting individuals who were victims of this program.  These included, psychotic experiences, extreme depression and even suicide.  Such bad trips/experiences also occur in certain people who knowingly ingest LSD, maybe triggering a latent disposition.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, blarsen said:

But it’s interesting to note the very bad effect the CIA’s administration of LSD in the MK-ULTRA program had on some unwitting individuals who were victims of this program.  These included, psychotic experiences, extreme depression and even suicide.  Such bad trips/experiences also occur in certain people who knowingly ingest LSD, maybe triggering a latent disposition.

No doubt it is powerful stuff! Timothy Leary and crew kept arguing over and over that the situation in which you take it is paramount (set and setting). This is probably why peyote use in the Native American Church sees so few negative effects. The whole situation is religious, holy, and safe, with very experienced people in charge.

My few experiences sitting up in a peyote teepee ceremony were quite powerful. And in 3 of the ceremonies, there were some full families in attendance (parents and children, including young children). Everyone, including the children, took "the medicine." From the NAC point-of-view, peyote is good and sacred and so it shouldn't be withheld from children.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, longview said:

Or to brain damage.  The results of experimentation likely would be irreversible.  Can be tragic.

They are now prescribing ketamine for depression with pretty good success (FDA approved one nasal spray version, though probably more would be done if ketamine itself could be patented, but instead they are using half of the molecule and it appears to have the same effect while being able to change two or three times as much as regular ketamine) and I just heard there are studies on the usefulness of ecstasy.

[blarsen]

49 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

No doubt it is powerful stuff! Timothy Leary and crew kept arguing over and over that the situation in which you take it is paramount (set and setting). This is probably why peyote use in the Native American Church sees so few negative effects. The whole situation is religious, holy, and safe, with very experienced people in charge.

My few experiences sitting up in a peyote teepee ceremony were quite powerful. And in 3 of the ceremonies, there were some full families in attendance (parents and children, including young children). Everyone, including the children, took "the medicine." From the NAC point-of-view, peyote is good and sacred and so it shouldn't be withheld from children.

I personally have no problem with what you are saying. 

I think it is true, however, that when through brain chemistry of certain predisposed individuals, or through the ingesting of psychedelics of one stripe or another, normal perception can become quite fluid and heavily influenced by a person's thoughts and disposition . . . and possibly influenced by outside 'forces', whether nefarious or benign.  A potentially fraught situation.

Put a little pressure on me and I'll dig up an article written by a S. American 'shaman', who was appalled at how we treat our schizophrenics.  He said his culture recognized them as very valuable and put them to work in various ways in the service of the culture.  An extremely different way to look at the whole 'problem'.

 

[blarsen]

20 hours ago, blarsen said:

Put a little pressure on me and I'll dig up an article written by a S. American 'shaman', who was appalled at how we treat our schizophrenics.  He said his culture recognized them as very valuable and put them to work in various ways in the service of the culture.  An extremely different way to look at the whole 'problem'.

 

OK.  That was sufficient 'pressure'.  The article is:  What A Shaman Sees In A Mental Hospital or The Shamanic View of Mental Illness

, by  Stephanie Marohn with Malidoma Patrice Somé .  Here is the introduction:
 

Quote

 

The Shamanic View of Mental Illness

In the shamanic view, mental illness signals “the birth of a healer,” explains Malidoma Patrice Somé. Thus, mental disorders are spiritual emergencies, spiritual crises, and need to be regarded as such to aid the healer in being born.

What those in the West view as mental illness, the Dagara people regard as “good news from the other world.” The person going through the crisis has been chosen as a medium for a message to the community that needs to be communicated from the spirit realm. “Mental disorder, behavioral disorder of all kinds, signal the fact that two obviously incompatible energies have merged into the same field,” says Dr. Somé. These disturbances result when the person does not get assistance in dealing with the presence of the energy from the spirit realm.

One of the things Dr. Somé encountered when he first came to the United States in 1980 for graduate study was how this country deals with mental illness. When a fellow student was sent to a mental institute due to “nervous depression,” Dr. Somé went to visit him.

“I was so shocked. That was the first time I was brought face to face with what is done here to people exhibiting the same symptoms I’ve seen in my village.” What struck Dr. Somé was that the attention given to such symptoms was based on pathology, on the idea that the condition is something that needs to stop. This was in complete opposition to the way his culture views such a situation. As he looked around the stark ward at the patients, some in straitjackets, some zoned out on medications, others screaming, he observed to himself, “So this is how the healers who are attempting to be born are treated in this culture. What a loss! What a loss that a person who is finally being aligned with a power from the other world is just being wasted.”

 

 

 

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, blarsen said:

OK.  That was sufficient 'pressure'.  The article is:  What A Shaman Sees In A Mental Hospital or The Shamanic View of Mental Illness

The Shamanic View of Mental Illness

In the shamanic view, mental illness signals “the birth of a healer,” explains Malidoma Patrice Somé. Thus, mental disorders are spiritual emergencies, spiritual crises, and need to be regarded as such to aid the healer in being born.

What those in the West view as mental illness, the Dagara people regard as “good news from the other world.” The person going through the crisis has been chosen as a medium for a message to the community that needs to be communicated from the spirit realm. “Mental disorder, behavioral disorder of all kinds, signal the fact that two obviously incompatible energies have merged into the same field,” says Dr. Somé. These disturbances result when the person does not get assistance in dealing with the presence of the energy from the spirit realm.

One of the things Dr. Somé encountered when he first came to the United States in 1980 for graduate study was how this country deals with mental illness. When a fellow student was sent to a mental institute due to “nervous depression,” Dr. Somé went to visit him.

“I was so shocked. That was the first time I was brought face to face with what is done here to people exhibiting the same symptoms I’ve seen in my village.” What struck Dr. Somé was that the attention given to such symptoms was based on pathology, on the idea that the condition is something that needs to stop. This was in complete opposition to the way his culture views such a situation. As he looked around the stark ward at the patients, some in straitjackets, some zoned out on medications, others screaming, he observed to himself, “So this is how the healers who are attempting to be born are treated in this culture. What a loss! What a loss that a person who is finally being aligned with a power from the other world is just being wasted.”

I imagine that is pretty much what the evil spirits are thinking, too. 

What a bummer!  What a waste!  If they hadn't taken this body out of commission, essentially, preventing me from using this person's arms and body to move around and do other things rather than just sitting here in this straitjacket zoned out on these drugs, I would be having such a wonderful time!  But they didn't cover up this person's mouth and I can still scream, though.  Look.  AAAHHHRRRAAAAHHHH!!!!!  Hmm, that was interesting.  It scared some people. I'll do it again!...."  Not much fun though so maybe I'll go check to see if I can get into somebody's else's body and mess with some other people's minds"

[blarsen]

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I imagine that is pretty much what the evil spirits are thinking, too. 

What a bummer!  What a waste!  If they hadn't taken this body out of commission, essentially, preventing me from using this person's arms and body to move around and do other things rather than just sitting here in this straitjacket zoned out on these drugs, I would be having such a wonderful time!  But they didn't cover up this person's mouth and I can still scream, though.  Look.  AAAHHHRRRAAAAHHHH!!!!!  Hmm, that was interesting.  It scared some people. I'll do it again!...."  Not much fun though so maybe I'll go check to see if I can get into somebody's else's body and mess with some other people's minds"

Could be.

I rather miss the point on the rest of your satire, though.  Are your referring to the 'possessed' woman from my wife's experience, or what? 

Two points of view are presented in my post on the woman vs. the one on the shaman.  The first is that at least some mental derangement could be caused by demonic possession; the second is that mental derangement has its good uses in particular cultures.  And with the 2nd possibility, you could posit the idea that the shamanistic culture may be  heavily influenced by the demonic.  But perhaps the latter is too obvious to you.  I don't know.

Care to clarify where you come down on these various possibilities?

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, blarsen said:

Could be.

I rather miss the point on the rest of your satire, though.  Are your referring to the 'possessed' woman from my wife's experience, or what? 

Two points of view are presented in my post on the woman vs. the one on the shaman.  The first is that at least some mental derangement could be caused by demonic possession; the second is that mental derangement has its good uses in particular cultures.  And with the 2nd possibility, you could posit the idea that the shamanistic culture may be  heavily influenced by the demonic.  But perhaps the latter is too obvious to you.  I don't know.

Care to clarify where you come down on these various possibilities?

Yes, I was thinking that people in some cultures could find uses for people whose body is possessed by some demon, and that demons could find some uses for the bodies they possess.  Don't know if I would necessarily classify those uses as "good uses", though.

It is kinda nice to imagine that maybe some demons would do some good things with the bodies they possess, though.  Usually people think of demons as bad influences so it would be nice if there were some demons out there doing some good things once in a while.

[blarsen]

53 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes, I was thinking that people in some cultures could find uses for people whose body is possessed by some demon, and that demons could find some uses for the bodies they possess.  Don't know if I would necessarily classify those uses as "good uses", though.

It is kinda nice to imagine that maybe some demons would do some good things with the bodies they possess, though.  Usually people think of demons as bad influences so it would be nice if there were some demons out there doing some good things once in a while.

I'm assuming, however, that you may still believe that some mental derangement has 'natural' causes, outside of the demonic.  Correct?  Now, if this were the case, you might very well accept that different cultures might be able to find such non-demonic mental 'derangement' useful in a positive sense.  Or not . . .

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, blarsen said:

I'm assuming, however, that you may still believe that some mental derangement has 'natural' causes, outside of the demonic.  Correct?  Now, if this were the case, you might very well accept that different cultures might be able to find such non-demonic mental 'derangement' useful in a positive sense.  Or not . . .

Nope, I consider all mental disorders to be the work of Satan and his minions.  All bad ideas, all things that mess with a person's mind in any negative way, and all propaganda that there are good non-demonic forms of mental derangement that are good to have in some societies.

I've had some bad ideas before but I didn't really want to keep any of them.  I'd rather have a good spirit in my body rather than any bad spirit and I can't imagine why anyone would think some form of mental derangement should ever be considered to be a good thing.