Demonic possession

[blarsen]

23 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Nope, I consider all mental disorders to be the work of Satan and his minions.  All bad ideas, all things that mess with a person's mind in any negative way, and all propaganda that there are good non-demonic forms of mental derangement that are good to have in some societies.

I've had some bad ideas before but I didn't really want to keep any of them.  I'd rather have a good spirit in my body rather than any bad spirit and I can't imagine why anyone would think some form of mental derangement should ever be considered to be a good thing.

OK.  That's pretty clear.  I will say the Shaman picture in the article didn't have him looking very enlightened, not that the picture was that of the author.

My understanding is that certain mental disorders have a genetic basis.  Not sure they've actually determined markers for specific disorders, however.  There are certainly genetic causes for a variety of physical ailments/disorders; I don't see why this could not carry over to brain anomalies that could result in mental dysfunction.  This view isn't either/or, however..

Edited September 27, 2019 by blarsen

[Ahab]

31 minutes ago, blarsen said:

My understanding is that certain mental disorders have a genetic basis.  Not sure they've actually determined markers for specific disorders, however.  There are certainly genetic causes for a variety of physical ailments/disorders; I don't see why this could not carry over to brain anomalies that could result in mental dysfunction.  This view isn't either/or.

The brain is one thing.  The mind is another.  The mind is basically another word that refers to the spirit.  Our mind is our spirit.  We are now spirit or a spirit body inside of a mortal body, and our spirit is the basis of who and what we are and what and why we think what we think.  Our brain can have some kind of physical disorder that limits how much our spirit (or even another spirit) can utilize our body without there being any fault in our spirit.  I was not talking about that.  I was saying or at least trying to say that any bad thing you might see a mortal body do would be something bad that a bad spirit in that body wanted to do, whether that bad spirit was the spirit that was born into that body or some other bad spirit that possessed that body of that person born into that body.  Being brain dead or having some brain damage is a sad state of affairs but it isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I think it's easier to think in terms of bad/evil actions and righteous actions, with good actions being the work of good spirits and bad/evil actions being the work of bad/evil spirits.  And bad/evil actions are never good even if some people think so.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Ahab

[blarsen]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

The brain is one thing.  The mind is another.  The mind is basically another word that refers to the spirit.  Our mind is our spirit.  We are now spirit or a spirit body inside of a mortal body, and our spirit is the basis of who and what we are and what and why we think what we think.  Our brain can have some kind of physical disorder that limits how much our spirit (or even another spirit) can utilize our body without there being any fault in our spirit.  I was not talking about that.  I was saying or at least trying to say that any bad thing you might see a mortal body do would be something bad that a bad spirit in that body wanted to do, whether that bad spirit was the spirit that was born into that body or some other bad spirit that possessed that body of that person born into that body.  Being brain dead or having some brain damage is a sad state of affairs but it isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I think it's easier to think in terms of bad/evil actions and righteous actions, with good actions being the work of good spirits and bad/evil actions being the work of bad/evil spirits.  And bad/evil actions are never good even if some people think so.

Well, I think the mind works through the brain, which integrates perception from physical receptors.  If something is wrong with that process, or it is loosened up and/or distorted, it may be more susceptible to picking up influences from outside sources, demonic or otherwise.  Then you have the apparent brain deficiencies found in psychopaths as described by James Fallon.  It’s a complex subject.

[The Nehor]

On 9/26/2019 at 2:58 PM, blarsen said:

Yes, it’s a site where you can have some fun and perhaps be astonished at the same time.  For instance, as we speak, there are people doing ‘battle’ with a few flat-earthers.  A fascinating phenomenon.

 

And yes, the notion of ‘freedom’ can take different slants.  For instance, in Albion’s Seed, David Fischer, documents how the idea of freedom in Puritan New England had a completely different meaning than it did among certain Virginians, who were 2^nd, 3^rd, etc., sons of English landed gentry that came into that colony . . . which probably had a lot to do w/the justification of slavery.

 

Your statement about slavery vs. state’s rights is a bit too black-and-white for me, pardon the pun.  There really were other pertinent issues.

 

Ideally, the right to declare war under our Constitution, devolves on Congress, our elected officials, from the power inherently possessed by the people.  Again, ideally, this power rests on the right of individual self-defense which rolls up to the collective defense of the nation.

 

The “war on terror” is a deplorable concept, in my view.  It can be kept going for ever, and clandestinely tweaked in myriad, myriad ways by corrupt governments and their cohorts, to justify its ongoing implementation.

There were other issues but they were minute in importance. Saying state's rights were a major contributor to the Civil War is like saying religion was a major contributor to World War II. Yes, it played a small role but you would be looked at like you were crazy if you tried to argue that it was a primary cause.

Yeah, but if an individual cannot declare war why can a nation if all rights originate with individuals?

And yes, the war on terror is silly. War on an emotional response is idiotic. Also, if you are not willing to declare war do not call it a war.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Ahab said:

Nope, I consider all mental disorders to be the work of Satan and his minions.  All bad ideas, all things that mess with a person's mind in any negative way, and all propaganda that there are good non-demonic forms of mental derangement that are good to have in some societies.

I've had some bad ideas before but I didn't really want to keep any of them.  I'd rather have a good spirit in my body rather than any bad spirit and I can't imagine why anyone would think some form of mental derangement should ever be considered to be a good thing.

So, by your logic I am currently possessed?

It would admittedly explain a lot but I am not convinced it is the best explanation.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

The brain is one thing.  The mind is another.  The mind is basically another word that refers to the spirit.  Our mind is our spirit.  We are now spirit or a spirit body inside of a mortal body, and our spirit is the basis of who and what we are and what and why we think what we think.  Our brain can have some kind of physical disorder that limits how much our spirit (or even another spirit) can utilize our body without there being any fault in our spirit.  I was not talking about that.  I was saying or at least trying to say that any bad thing you might see a mortal body do would be something bad that a bad spirit in that body wanted to do, whether that bad spirit was the spirit that was born into that body or some other bad spirit that possessed that body of that person born into that body.  Being brain dead or having some brain damage is a sad state of affairs but it isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I think it's easier to think in terms of bad/evil actions and righteous actions, with good actions being the work of good spirits and bad/evil actions being the work of bad/evil spirits.  And bad/evil actions are never good even if some people think so.

So when a small child misbehaves it is demons? Despite the prophetic teaching that small children cannot yet be tempted by devils?

Spotting a contradiction there.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

I imagine that is pretty much what the evil spirits are thinking, too. 

What a bummer!  What a waste!  If they hadn't taken this body out of commission, essentially, preventing me from using this person's arms and body to move around and do other things rather than just sitting here in this straitjacket zoned out on these drugs, I would be having such a wonderful time!  But they didn't cover up this person's mouth and I can still scream, though.  Look.  AAAHHHRRRAAAAHHHH!!!!!  Hmm, that was interesting.  It scared some people. I'll do it again!...."  Not much fun though so maybe I'll go check to see if I can get into somebody's else's body and mess with some other people's minds"

By this reasoning the asylums should be letting everyone out after a few days after the devil inside gets bored and leaves and they are suddenly sane again. I don't think you have thought any of this through.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, blarsen said:

OK.  That was sufficient 'pressure'.  The article is:  What A Shaman Sees In A Mental Hospital or The Shamanic View of Mental Illness

 

, by  Stephanie Marohn with Malidoma Patrice Somé .  Here is the introduction:

The primary symptom of mental disorders and illness is pain. I am not convinced the shamanic approach mitigates the pain at all compared to institutionalization.

[blarsen]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

There were other issues but they were minute in importance. Saying state's rights were a major contributor to the Civil War is like saying religion was a major contributor to World War II. Yes, it played a small role but you would be looked at like you were crazy if you tried to argue that it was a primary cause.

Yeah, but if an individual cannot declare war why can a nation if all rights originate with individuals?

And yes, the war on terror is silly. War on an emotional response is idiotic. Also, if you are not willing to declare war do not call it a war.

Minute?  Debatable.   I actually said "pertinent", not major.   

And the right to defend against unrighteous attack rolls up from the individual to the larger group, depending on whether the attack is against a single individual, or a family, clan, tribe or a nation the individual belongs to.  You missed that.  Perhaps you can explain why this should not be?

And indeed, to declare war against an abstract noun is the height of stupidity, imho.

[blarsen]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The primary symptom of mental disorders and illness is pain. I am not convinced the shamanic approach mitigates the pain at all compared to institutionalization.

You would probably have to ask those so afflicted in the Shaman's tribe how they would gauge their pain.  Also, I wonder how much of the pain suffered by their counterparts in our culture may be due to their being devalued, shunned, pigeon-holed, marginalized, etc., etc.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, blarsen said:

You would probably have to ask those so afflicted in the Shaman's tribe how they would gauge their pain.  Also, I wonder how much of the pain suffered by their counterparts in our culture may be due to their being devalued, shunned, pigeon-holed, marginalized, etc., etc.

I wouldn’t shun, devalue, and marginalize them so much if they would shut up about their stupid messages from the other side. Seriously, the dead can be so annoying.

[Ahab]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:07 PM, blarsen said:

Well, I think the mind works through the brain, which integrates perception from physical receptors.  If something is wrong with that process, or it is loosened up and/or distorted, it may be more susceptible to picking up influences from outside sources, demonic or otherwise.  Then you have the apparent brain deficiencies found in psychopaths as described by James Fallon.  It’s a complex subject.

 

Yes I can see that it is a complex subject but basically I think our Lord judges us by what we choose to do and any answer something like:  "Well that doesn't count because I had brain damage or some other physical challenge that made me do that" isn't going to excuse us from being responsible for doing whatever we did that we chose to do on that occasion.

[Ahab]

On 9/27/2019 at 7:37 PM, The Nehor said:

So, by your logic I am currently possessed?

I don't know what I said that gave you that idea?  Are you sure you got that one from me?  What I said was:

I consider all mental disorders to be the work of Satan and his minions.  All bad ideas, all things that mess with a person's mind in any negative way, and all propaganda that there are good non-demonic forms of mental derangement that are good to have in some societies.

I've had some bad ideas before but I didn't really want to keep any of them.  I'd rather have a good spirit in my body rather than any bad spirit and I can't imagine why anyone would think some form of mental derangement should ever be considered to be a good thing.

You could have bad ideas of your own without getting them from some (other?) person who technically qualifies as one of Satan's minions.  I've had some bad ideas before but I've repented from having them and I don't really want to have or keep any more of them.

On 9/27/2019 at 7:37 PM, The Nehor said:

It would admittedly explain a lot but I am not convinced it is the best explanation.

Maybe and maybe not.  I just find it easier to attribute all good things including all good ideas to God, or at least anything good we have on this planet, while considering all of the bad stuff including all abominations of good things to the work of Satan and his minions.

[blarsen]

25 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes I can see that it is a complex subject but basically I think our Lord judges us by what we choose to do and any answer something like:  "Well that doesn't count because I had brain damage or some other physical challenge that made me do that" isn't going to excuse us from being responsible for doing whatever we did that we chose to do on that occasion.

I don't see people so afflicted making excuses like that.  They seems to be unaware of what they do, especially those suffering from various personality disorders, such as narcissism or  borderline personality.  Those having to interact with them are the ones likely to "make excuses" for them, because they keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

And those suffering from more acute psychological/mental problems don't seem to be able to mitigate the symptoms by anything they try outside of anti-psychotic medications.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of will, of changing their thoughts, repenting, or dampening the voices and images they are plagued with.

Edited September 30, 2019 by blarsen

[Ahab]

On 9/27/2019 at 7:39 PM, The Nehor said:

So when a small child misbehaves it is demons? Despite the prophetic teaching that small children cannot yet be tempted by devils?

Spotting a contradiction there.

We should be careful about what we consider to be a bad thing, I think.  A child who doesn't know the difference between good and evil yet isn't really capable of doing anything bad, in the good vs bad/evil context. To sin a person must know the difference between good and evil when making a choice to do either a good or a bad/evil act, which is why it is impossible to commit any sin in ignorance of that knowledge.  It is just disobedience in that case and disobedience isn't necessarily a bad/evil act.

Some parents would say a child is misbehaving when they refuse to put a toy down or to go to bed when the parent says so, for example, which is not a sin or a bad/evil act but simply a refusal to comply with the desires of that parent.

[HappyJackWagon]

We had a woman in our area a few years ago who was very into Faith Healing. That's not too strange since healing is considered a gift of the spirit, but she took it pretty far. She was an affluent, older woman who worked in the temple every week, but her idea of healing was new to me at the time.

She believed, and taught, that every ailment in the body was related to a demonic possession. If your right shoulder hurt, there was a specific type of demon responsible. If a person had cancer, the demon was possessing a specific part of the body...and so on. She would conduct an interview with a person to determine where their pain was and what the associated demonic possession was responsible. So, for example, if I went in with a sore ankle, a tooth ache, and a rash on my leg, she would ask me, "does your leg hurt". She would link her middle finger and thumbs together in a circle like a chain, and then pull. If the chain broke, then yes, I truly had a demon causing the rash on my leg. She would then make note of all the demonic possessions causing my ailments and then have her husband give a priesthood blessing to cast out the demons and thus heal the person.

In any case, when I learned of this I was quite alarmed and took steps to prevent the practice. I was extremely shocked by the number of extremely stalwart individuals who swore by this healing technique. They were likewise shocked that I had a problem with this demonic/healing process. They could cite scriptures and gospel principles to bolster their claims of legitimacy but they were essentially the same kinds of claims our local Mormon Reiki practitioner used so I wasn't convinced.  

[Ahab]

35 minutes ago, blarsen said:

I don't see people so afflicted making excuses like that.  They seems to be unaware of what they do, especially those suffering from various personality disorders, such as narcissism or  borderline personality.  Those having to interact with them are the ones likely to "make excuses" for them, because they keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

And those suffering from more acute psychological/mental problems don't seem to be able to mitigate the symptoms by anything they try outside of anti-psychotic medications.  It doesn't seem to be a matter of will, of changing their thoughts, repenting, or dampening the voices and images they are plagued with.

Then I would say they are either acting in ignorance, a lack of knowledge of good or evil regarding what they are doing, or they are choosing to do what you and others consider to be evil rather than a good thing for them to do, or some other person is using their body to do it.

Those are the only 3 choices, as I see it.

From a world-wide population perspective, I would say that most people would say that most people are responsible for everything each person chooses to do. with the next most popular perspective being that some people just don't realize they are doing bad things when they do them.  The least popular perspective I would say is that some other spirit is in that body of that person and that evil spirit is causing that person's body to do that bad/evil thing.

Maybe we should vote now.  What do you think?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

I don't know what I said that gave you that idea?  Are you sure you got that one from me?  What I said was:

I consider all mental disorders to be the work of Satan and his minions.  All bad ideas, all things that mess with a person's mind in any negative way, and all propaganda that there are good non-demonic forms of mental derangement that are good to have in some societies.

I've had some bad ideas before but I didn't really want to keep any of them.  I'd rather have a good spirit in my body rather than any bad spirit and I can't imagine why anyone would think some form of mental derangement should ever be considered to be a good thing.

You could have bad ideas of your own without getting them from some (other?) person who technically qualifies as one of Satan's minions.  I've had some bad ideas before but I've repented from having them and I don't really want to have or keep any more of them.

Maybe and maybe not.  I just find it easier to attribute all good things including all good ideas to God, or at least anything good we have on this planet, while considering all of the bad stuff including all abominations of good things to the work of Satan and his minions.

I have a mental disorder. I suspect you do too.

[Ahab]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have a mental disorder. I suspect you do too.

Yes but my disorder is common among mortals and I can order it when I notice that it is not in order.  Otherwise I might as well have a sign hanging around my neck saying "out of order".

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Yes but my disorder is common among mortals and I can order it when I notice that it is not in order.  Otherwise I might as well have a sign hanging around my neck saying "out of order".

I find this easier then a sign:

I prefer this one myself though:

 

 

[Ahab]

I like this one too.

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

find this easier then a sign:

I am reminded of the J Golden Kimball  story about being out of order. A real knee-slapper. 

[strappinglad]

Is for ADD , I always think of the dog in the movie " UP " and his constant case of " SQUIRREL" (sic) 

Edited September 30, 2019 by strappinglad

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I am reminded of the J Golden Kimball  story about being out of order. A real knee-slapper. 

I am reminded of an old fashioned pay phone with a paper note on it that said that.  I was maybe 4 or 5 years old and had to ponder a bit, and maybe even ask my Mom, about what those words meant.  The phone still looked pretty good even with that sign on it.  At that time, back then, I didn't need to make a phone call and just noticed it while passing by.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

As for ADD , I always think of the dog in the movie " UP " and his constant case of " SQUERRIL" (sic) 

Yeah, that is my experience of it except not limited to squirrels and not limited to real things (my imagination can be crippling).