Ed Smart, father of Elizabeth Smart, Announces he is gay

[Scott Lloyd]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

Kind of shows the problem with everyone blindly accepting anything the prophet says as coming from God doesn't it.  Think of all those families denied temple blessings because people assumed BY spoke for God.  And every prophet after him supported that erroneous belief.  Those prophets thought they didn't have the right to change the opinion of BY.  Not one of those prophets were able to say, wait. this is just a personal statement?  And what about all of those people who said that there was a promise from God that one day the ban would be lifted?  Wouldn't that be a personal statement and not some revelation from God?  Amazing how far down the rabbit hole something like this can go.  That lasted what? almost 150 years?  

Or are you arguing that it was a revelation?  Or do you just want it both ways?

I think it was according to the will of God but we don’t have a record of its origin or a revealed explanation for it. I don’t believe God would have left the earnest prayers of David O. McKay and Spencer W. Kimball (and perhaps other prophets) unanswered for so long if it were otherwise. 

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I feel so sorry for you.  You can’t flirt while married to a loving wife.

Well we have fond memories we had more than enough to tide us over until our bodies are made perfect again.

[california boy]

I have to say, this thread has been an eye opener for me.  I had no idea just how judgmental members of the Church could possibly be against someone who is gay.  I really wonder how universal these feelings are in the Church.  I would like to set up a poll to ask some questions about how members feel about straight divorces, but I don't know how to do that on this site.  Perhaps someone more savvy could help me.  It would be interesting to see if there are any differences in attitudes on the two types of divorce.  

These are the questions I would like to ask everyone on this thread.

When a wife in a straight marriage files for divorce in the Church do you think it is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to

A. Speculate whether the husband is having an affair?

B. Speculate that the husband is a sex addict?

C.Assume the husband is overcome by the power of Satan?

D. Accuse the husband of sliming his wife?

E. Speculate that the husband is in the throes of Jungle Fever?

F. Believe the husband is not now, and never has been a moral man?

G. Assume the husband Is wholly self-centered, turning from Christ to satiate one's passions. 

So let's hear your response.  Just type the letter and give us a yes or no to each question in the survey.  If you wish, you can add a comment about how all of this fits perfectly in with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  

 

[california boy]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think it was according to the will of God but we don’t have a record of its origin or a revealed explanation for it. I don’t believe God would have left the earnest prayers of David O. McKay and Spencer W. Kimball (and perhaps other prophets) unanswered for so long if it were otherwise. 

So, not a revelation from God, just a very lucky guess that happened to be right?

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have to say, this thread has been an eye opener for me.  I had no idea just how judgmental members of the Church could possibly be against someone who is gay.  I really wonder how universal these feelings are in the Church.  I would like to set up a poll to ask some questions about how members feel about straight divorces, but I don't know how to do that on this site.  Perhaps someone more savvy could help me.  It would be interesting to see if there are any differences in attitudes on the two types of divorce.  

These are the questions I would like to ask everyone on this thread.

When a wife in a straight marriage files for divorce in the Church do you think it is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to

A. Speculate whether the husband is having an affair?

B. Speculate that the husband is a sex addict?

C.Assume the husband is overcome by the power of Satan?

D. Accuse the husband of sliming his wife?

E. Speculate that the husband is in the throes of Jungle Fever?

F. Believe the husband is not now, and never has been a moral man?

G. Assume the husband Is wholly self-centered, turning from Christ to satiate one's passions. 

So let's hear your response.  Just type the letter and give us a yes or no to each question in the survey.  If you wish, you can add a comment about how all of this fits perfectly in with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  

 

How about a choice of “none of the above”?  

That’s what I’d answer (same for the situation in this thread) 👍

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, california boy said:

So, not a revelation from God, just a very lucky guess that happened to be right?

I can’t make sense out of this comment. 

[california boy]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can’t make sense out of this comment. 

Well you stated that the priesthood ban was not a revelation but turned out to be the will of God.

Since it wasn't a revelation, did Brigham Young just make a lucky guess that God wanted blacks banned from the priesthood?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

21 minutes ago, california boy said:

I have to say, this thread has been an eye opener for me.  I had no idea just how judgmental members of the Church could possibly be against someone who is gay.  I really wonder how universal these feelings are in the Church.  I would like to set up a poll to ask some questions about how members feel about straight divorces, but I don't know how to do that on this site.  Perhaps someone more savvy could help me.  It would be interesting to see if there are any differences in attitudes on the two types of divorce.  

These are the questions I would like to ask everyone on this thread.

When a wife in a straight marriage files for divorce in the Church do you think it is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to

A. Speculate whether the husband is having an affair?

B. Speculate that the husband is a sex addict?

C.Assume the husband is overcome by the power of Satan?

D. Accuse the husband of sliming his wife?

E. Speculate that the husband is in the throes of Jungle Fever?

F. Believe the husband is not now, and never has been a moral man?

G. Assume the husband Is wholly self-centered, turning from Christ to satiate one's passions. 

So let's hear your response.  Just type the letter and give us a yes or no to each question in the survey.  If you wish, you can add a comment about how all of this fits perfectly in with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  

 

This thread has become a cesspool. It is no wonder that the church loses so many people over this issue (including my wife).

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 8/16/2019 at 12:56 PM, smac97 said:

Pretty much.

Or we just have disparate perspectives.  No need for the public accusation of dishonesty.

Okay.

I don't think so.

The law applies to all of us.  Equality of application does not translate to equality of outcome.

No, it's not.  All members of the Church are prohibited from engaging in adultery, fornication, or homosexual behavior.  

Your statement doesn't make much sense.  If the Church "stands in for God," then the Law of Chastity is not "entirely manufactured by the Church."

I don't understand.  What does that have to do with the Law of Chastity (which applies to members of the Church)?

Again, so what?  The Law of Chastity applies to mmembers of the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

This thread has moved past the point where I want to contribute, but I did want to apologize for implying dishonesty on your part. I do believe you post sincerely and should have chosen my words better.

Edited August 18, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[longview]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Scripturally is the only way to leave a covenant is sin or can covenants be mutually dissolved?

No.  Joseph Smith taught that once you leave neutral ground, you can never return to being neutral.  Heber Kimball said:  "Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall - - - For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming."

3 hours ago, Calm said:

serious question. The eternal covenant seen as an unbreakable contract where one is damned if one wants to withdraw is problematic for me even when we view hell as a teaching time. 

This is a wishy washy statement.  People can't just casually walk in and out of that Great and Spacious Building.

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well you stated that the priesthood ban was not a revelation but turned out to be the will of God.

Since it wasn't a revelation, did Brigham Young just make a lucky guess that God wanted blacks banned from the priesthood?

I didn’t say it wasn’t a revelation. I said just the opposite. 

I don’t have time to converse with you if you are going to twist my words. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I agree, but in this case, if his wife were willing to remain married, would not seem better to keep the family together? Of course, this is the big, what if? Does his wife wish to remain married, to preserve the family for eternity?

But one can be honest about their feelings and still stay married depending on what is seen as workable. They would probably have to discuss what was expected of each other including remaining sexually faithful to each other while not having a sexual relationship themselves if that wasn’t desired (there are multiple reasons to have sex, including giving comfort to each other). Depending on the person, there still might be able to have a physical relationship if only sitting with arms around each other as friends and remaining celibate. 

I think years of thinking your spouse found you attractive and then finding they didn’t might make a person see one’s lie as all a lie, feel trapped by the relationship and want out to find out who one is really when one stops making choices based on a lie. So it could be very hard these days when both men and women have the right to choose their own lives and not just have to accept whatever is given to them to stay long enough in a place of so much pain to begin to heal. 

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, longview said:

No.  Joseph Smith taught that once you leave neutral ground, you can never return to being neutral.  Heber Kimball said:  "Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall - - - For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming."

This is a wishy washy statement.  People can't just casually walk in and out of that Great and Spacious Building.

If altering the marriage covenant is damnation, then why did BY encourage women who were polygamously married to divorce and remarry if they found a man who wanted to be monogamously married to them?  Or if agreeable to all to leave one man with a lower level of priesthood to marry a man who was apparently heading for more glory (As I understand his comment) 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Calm

[longview]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

If altering the marriage covenant is damnation, then why did BY encourage women who were polygamously married to divorce and remarry if they found a man who wanted to be monogamously married to them?  Or if agreeable to all to leave one man with a lower level of priesthood to marry a man who was apparently heading for more glory (As I understand his comment) 

It would be helpful if you could provide references for the two oddities.

[california boy]

D I V O R C E

Do you remember our discussion on Oaks Talk Doesn't Explain The Scripture on Remarriage and these words of Christ found in Matthew 5"32

 

Quote

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

We had quite a discussion about how through revelation from God, modern prophets allow divorce in the Church.  According to this article in the Deseret News, the divorce rate among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is between 40-45%

Quote

The divorce rate, which was once believed to be much lower among Latter-day Saints than the general population, is only from 5 percent to 10 percent lower than the national average of 50 percent

Now let's look at some of the responses from our posters

Quote

 

Bluebell

If two people don't want to be together though, does it matter why?  I mean, yes, repentance would be necessary for getting a divorce when God did not condone it, but after that repentance was complete, if the two people don't want to be sealed (and are perhaps sealed to others), then God will not force them to be together, right? 

 

Quote

 

USU78

Without sincere mutual consent sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, how could any sealing survive death?

 

Quote

 

Wade England

Given that I have close family members who have reluctantly gone through the process of temple divorce, later to find wonderful spouses, to which they became sealed, it is a comfort to know that Christ will be our merciful arbiter and judge rather than you. 

 

Quote

 

CV75

He is not forbidding remarriage, only stating that under the higher law that He established in the beginning, it would constitute adultery under the circumstances described. If I'm missing something, please point it out (simply using bold type doesn't count).

 

Quote

 

Alter Idem

 

So, we're supposed to stick with the actual words....then, if a woman wants to divorce without carrying the stain of adultery to a subsequent marriage, she should fornicate?

Personally I'm very glad that is a teaching some believe we no longer follow.  It's pretty messed up

 

 

 

Quote

 

Stargazer

The marriage standard as set by Christ during his mortal ministry appears to forbid the remarriage of persons who have been divorced.  Yet we in the LDS faith allow remarriage after divorce.  Even if the couple was sealed in the temple.

 

Now lets see what the attitudes towards divorce is when the husband comes out as gay.

Quote

 

Longview

Infidelity is not always the same thing as having an affair.  But regardless, when he married his wife he made a covenant in a three-way relationship.  The third point of the triangle was with God.  The highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom requires a husband/wife partnership.  This entails being worthy and trustworthy enough to be allowed to invite intelligences to become their spirit children and to proceed with the next Eternal Round for implementing the Plan of Happiness.  Bro. Smart not only slimed his wife he also turned against God.  He has failed the test.

 

Quote

 

Bill "Papa" Lee

I have seen the broken families, the shattered lives, and even the deaths, associated with persons who choose to make bad decisions, while giving in to their “desires”, leaving their families, and lives in shambles. I have even had to bury friends, and family as a result of placing “carnal desires”, above all else. I certainly don’t know what goes on in the lives of other people, and their marriages, but have so often been in the front or second row, to watch too many tragedies unfolding.

 

Longview

Quote

  A faithful member should expect to make a lifelong commitment (ideally) to staying true to his/her spouse and be willing to ENDURE the refining process, to draw ever closer to God and become well seasoned, more humble, willing to be meek, learn how to act (and NOT be mindlessly acted upon), being willing to always walk with God (through all heights and depths, etc).

Quote

 

Bill "Papa" Lee

“He” has a wife, a decades long marriage, five children. I am not obsessed with anything concerning sex, I am standing back, looking at the collateral damage today, in the future, and the eternities. BTW, a wife that he says that “he loves, and always will love” , and that this is he says, “will bind them for or in the eternities”. His words not mine, but now that wife, his children, his grandchildren, and generations to come, will be affected for a short term (and the eternities) to the desire, 

 

Quote

 

Bill "Papa" Lee

I agree, but in this case, if his wife were willing to remain married, would not seem better to keep the family together? Of course, this is the big, what if? Does his wife wish to remain married, to preserve the family for eternity?

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Mrmarlin

The reality is he should have taken his secret to the grave. Had he been a moral person.  But he’s obviously not. 

 

Quote

 

Vance

What doth it profit a man, to gain his sexual desires and lose his own soul.

 

All of this outrage against divorce.  Perhaps it is justified.  I just want to know where all this outrage was when everyone was defending divorce n the previous thread?  Do people only start condemning divorce when the reason for that divorce is the husband is gay?  And why focus on this one individual when 40-45% of the members of the Church are getting divorced?  Isn't this one gay guy pretty insignificant compared to the real problem?  Or perhaps it is just easier to condemn situations that you personally will never find yourself in.

•  

Edited August 18, 2019 by california boy

[Calm]

Longview, I am off to babysit my mom for the night and don’t know how long it will take to get her settled. If someone else knows what I am talking about, I would so appreciate you doing the research for me. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Calm

[california boy]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I didn’t say it wasn’t a revelation. I said just the opposite. 

I don’t have time to converse with you if you are going to twist my words. 

 

Quote

 

Scott Lloyd said:

I think it was according to the will of God but we don’t have a record of its origin or a revealed explanation for it. I don’t believe God would have left the earnest prayers of David O. McKay and Spencer W. Kimball (and perhaps other prophets) unanswered for so long if it were otherwise. 

 

I am simply trying to find out if you believe the Priesthood Ban was a revelation from God or not.  Not too difficult.  You seem to be the one evading a very simple question

 

[ttribe]

8 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Great, don’t mess with my worldview.  I am interested to know how you believe God would communicate a change in the law of chastity to His children.

Nope.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But one can be honest about their feelings and still stay married depending on what is seen as workable. They would probably have to discuss what was expected of each other including remaining sexually faithful to each other while not having a sexual relationship themselves if that wasn’t desired (there are multiple reasons to have sex, including giving comfort to each other). Depending on the person, there still might be able to have a physical relationship if only sitting with arms around each other as friends and remaining celibate. 

I think years of thinking your spouse found you attractive and then finding they didn’t might make a person see one’s lie as all a lie, feel trapped by the relationship and want out to find out who one is really when one stops making choices based on a lie. So it could be very hard these days when both men and women have the right to choose their own lives and not just have to accept whatever is given to them to stay long enough in a place of so much pain to begin to heal. 

When I came out to my wife, I assumed we might be able to continue some life together.  I was thinking maybe separate bedrooms.  I didn't really have any answers.  We talked a lot, late into the nights,   She went to one of my therapy sessions with David Matthison.  We drove down to LA from San Francisco and talked the whole way down and back.  I felt like she needed to decide what to do and how to go forward.  In the end, she is the one that filed divorce papers.  Honestly I think she knew that I would never be able to do that.  I didn't have the courage.  But in her heart, she knew that we both needed to move on with our lives.  She needed to have the hope of finding someone to love her in ways she knew I never could.  I think she did realize that staying in that marriage would have just been years of pain and whatever love and respect we had for each other would not endure.  

Honestly, I will always be grateful for her courage at a time when I had little to do the right thing.  She is a very sweet person, someone who I will always have love for.  Just because I couldn't love her as a wife, doesn't mean I couldn't love.

Maybe that is why I am so upset with this thread and the assumptions, accusations, gossip and speculation on the Smarts.  You guys that are making these comments know nothing.  You have no idea what has been going on in their lives.  Your judgements are nasty and uncalled for.  And it all seems to come from a place where he finally was no longer ashamed of being gay.  

Edited August 18, 2019 by california boy

[JAHS]

36 minutes ago, california boy said:

Quote

Scott Lloyd said:

I think it was according to the will of God but we don’t have a record of its origin or a revealed explanation for it. I don’t believe God would have left the earnest prayers of David O. McKay and Spencer W. Kimball (and perhaps other prophets) unanswered for so long if it were otherwise. 

 

I am simply trying to find out if you believe the Priesthood Ban was a revelation from God or not.  Not too difficult.  You seem to be the one evading a very simple question

I think it was simply according to the understanding of the Gospel at the time and was the prudent thing to do for the survival of the church.
We all, including the prophets, learn things line upon line and God simply allowed them to institute the policy because they and the world were not ready for anything else at the time.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Well you stated that the priesthood ban was not a revelation but turned out to be the will of God.

Since it wasn't a revelation, did Brigham Young just make a lucky guess that God wanted blacks banned from the priesthood?

I did not state the priesthood ban was not a revelation. Please stop lying about what I said. 

[Storm Rider]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Scripturally is the only way to leave a covenant is sin or can covenants be mutually dissolved?

It seems strange that God would have it black or white when his children are in some many different stages of spiritual development and emotional maturity and self awareness at the time they covenant. 

Is it possible that God might allow a third option to valiant and rejection of God as in ‘thank you God for letting me have this opportunity to learn of the great blessings you want to give me, but at this time I don’t think I want them. Perhaps I am not ready where I thought I was. I am choosing to step away from this covenant, Lord, therefore because I think I can learn more of your love without being burdened with this specific covenant. You taught your yoke is light and I need to learn why I have felt this part to be heavy. I don’t want to leave you just to break a promise I made with you, I believe this is a better way to find ways I can better live my commitment to you.’?

serious question. The eternal covenant seen as an unbreakable contract where one is damned if one wants to withdraw is problematic for me even when we view hell as a teaching time. 

Based on this logic, would you assume that a member could reject his baptism, withdraw from the Church, thinking/saying, 'thank you God for letting me have this opportunity to learn of the great blessings you want to give me, but at this time I don’t think I want them. Perhaps I am not ready where I thought I was. I am choosing to step away from this covenant, Lord, therefore because I think I can learn more of your love without being burdened with this specific covenant. You taught your yoke is light and I need to learn why I have felt this part to be heavy. I don’t want to leave you just to break a promise I made with you, I believe this is a better way to find ways I can better live my commitment to you.’?  This kind of logic, when discussed in terms of baptism seems to reveal that it is not very strong and falls apart. 

I do think that God is more merciful than we give him credit in almost all conversations. Nothing that we are talking about is beyond forgiveness. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I am simply trying to find out if you believe the Priesthood Ban was a revelation from God or not.  Not too difficult.  You seem to be the one evading a very simple question

 

I said we don’t have record of there being a revelation announcing its origin. I didn’t say there was no revelation. You are jumping to conclusions.

The fact that the Lord for so long did not answer persistent prayers from the prophets telling them to remove the ban is tantamount in my view to revelation that the ban should remain in place for the time being. We understand from scripture that “a stupor of thought” amounts to a “no” answer.

And Greg Prince, in his biography of David O. McKay, recounts that the message President McKay got in answer to his prayers was that the ban would not be lifted during his presidency and that he should cease to trouble the Lord about it. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I am simply trying to find out if you believe the Priesthood Ban was a revelation from God or not.  Not too difficult.  You seem to be the one evading a very simple question

 

I think he means it is a revelation in his view, we just don’t have records of its reception, but not having records in no way invalidates it as a revelation.

I don’t think he is evading, you are both making different assumptions and both think it is obvious what they mean when it isn’t when using a different assumption. 

Add-on:  Scott just posted, but I will leave my post anyway for another PoV. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

This kind of logic, when discussed in terms of baptism seems to reveal that it is not very strong and falls apart.

Why does it fall apart?  You have not explained why, just said it falls apart.

Do you think God holds the identical view of the covenants made by an 18 year old who covenanted as an 8 year old who got baptized because they believed their parents are good people and want the best for them, so trust the parents are right as he holds an 38 year old adult who has had a personal revelation of the truthfulness of the gospel and therefore took on the covenant of baptism as a 28 year old?

”I do think that God is more merciful than we give him credit in almost all conversations. Nothing that we are talking about is beyond forgiveness”

I very much agree with this. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Calm