The Nehor Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 18 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Cfr, and I question accuracy on self report . Can you give me six more impossible tasks before I sit down to breakfast?
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Can you give me six more impossible tasks before I sit down to breakfast? If you can’t back it up you shouldn’t have said it.
Tacenda Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 22 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Can you give me six more impossible tasks before I sit down to breakfast? What time is it in Texas right now?
Tacenda Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: People are quick to shut you down, and yet I have wondered the same thing. We apparently have not succeeded in the church regarding curbing porn use. So whether it’s the churches fault per se or not, we aren’t doing things right yet. My bishop is a friend first and he was telling me of a guy who had life long porn behaviors and since he was not allowed to participate in the gospel he left, and when he left, the porn went away. ******Anecdotal to be sure but it got me thinking, and I’m still thinking. Thanks for your post MustardSeed! https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/09/04/black-hole-part-3/ I kept getting the 403 forbidden message when trying to c/p the specific post. If you scroll down you'll see Adele's post on Sept. 7, 2018 at 3:34. I'll c/p the quotes by her that are especially pertinent: "I am the daughter of a toxically compulsive pornography user who ruined his marriage by choosing it as his preferred form of sexuality over marital intimacy with my mother. It was a source of much disgust and shame to me as a young person and has cast a shadow over his relationships with all of his kids. I swore if I ever married it would be to someone who did not have this problem." "Then I met my husband, a gentle, compassionate, and extremely spiritually sensitive man who confided early on that he had struggled with this compulsion for years and told me about how the habit, combined with his innate sense of scrupulosity and pathological honesty with bishops, had led to him spending years—years!!—abstaining from the sacrament and ultimately was a huge factor in his decision not to serve a mission. He felt he would never be worthy. When we met he was completely inactive in the church." "It breaks my heart now to think of the young man that my husband was, so mired in his own guilt and the cycle of compulsive use that dominated most of his teenage and young adult years. I would never want him to feel those feelings of helplessness and hopelessness again." 5 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I have not seen any data that indicates the members of the Church have a more significant problem with porn than society at large. If I was guessing, I would say that it is less of a problem. That negative perspective is showing again. Not negative, truthful, IMO. Edited June 26, 2019 by Tacenda
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, Tacenda said: What time is it in Texas right now? I eat breakfast very late. I usually only have two meals a day. 18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: If you can’t back it up you shouldn’t have said it. I can back it up but not with the added restriction of not using any self-reported data since that is realistically the only way to collect data about a geographically diffused demographic group’s internet activities. If you claimed that the church’s membership was over 16 million and I asked for a CFR but stipulated that I did not trust the church’s reporting of their membership numbers would you be able to answer my CFR? 2
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 11 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Not negative, truthful, IMO. I am so tempted to sarcastically CFR this. 1
MustardSeed Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I eat breakfast very late. I usually only have two meals a day. I can back it up but not with the added restriction of not using any self-reported data since that is realistically the only way to collect data about a geographically diffused demographic group’s internet activities. If you claimed that the church’s membership was over 16 million and I asked for a CFR but stipulated that I did not trust the church’s reporting of their membership numbers would you be able to answer my CFR? I find the unsubstantiated statement laughable. 1
The Nehor Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: I find the unsubstantiated statement laughable. I find your insistence on inane provisos on your CFRs laughable so at least we are amusing each other. 1
Storm Rider Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: Utah is the #1 porn user... https://conquerseries.com/which-u-s-state-consumes-the-most-porn/ Utah is #1 child abuser: https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-has-high-rates-of-child-abuse-sex-abuse-of-children Based on the first article, there are 16,957 individuals [(3.10 million people)/1000*5.47=16957] that have subscribed to porn sites in Utah. It is unfortunate that we cannot drill down into that number to break down exactly who is subscribing to sites. However, given Utah is 60% Mormon one can just make an assumption that the number is 16,957*.6=10,174 individuals. Or not, the first article data is very open to interpretation. Utah has the highest number of porn subscribers is all that can be said - not who is doing the subscribing. I have a hard time believing that married LDS men can hide monthly expenses for porn from their wives. I gotta believe that these are most likely single men that can spend as they choose. I still would bet dollars to donuts that that number represents more nonmembers than members of the Church. 2
Storm Rider Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 57 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Not negative, truthful, IMO. LOL - whatever makes you happy. It is so very easy to blame anyone and everything else, rather than take responsibility for one's actions. It is my parent's faults; it is the school's fault; it is God's fault; it is the Church's fault. One lesson I learned is to consider every instance when things went wrong in life. Now, what is the single most common denominator in each of those events? There is only one - and it is you. Learning that lesson has kept me focused on recognizing my responsibility before blaming anyone or anything else. If someone wants to be happy, they will be happy. The problem is if they want to be unhappy, feel lonely, etc. They are the only one that can fix it because no one else can make "me" do anything. 1
Raingirl Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 38 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I find your insistence on inane provisos on your CFRs laughable so at least we are amusing each other. Silly boy, don’t you realize that we’re not supposed to believe anything a member of the church says without extensive documentation (and, actually, not then either), but we’re supposed to take anything a non-member says as absolute truth, no questions asked. 🤷♀️
bluebell Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I can back it up but not with the added restriction of not using any self-reported data since that is realistically the only way to collect data about a geographically diffused demographic group’s internet activities. She didn't say you couldn't use self-reported data, only that she would question it's accuracy. I also don't believe that any poster can dictate that another poster can't use the reference they were referring to when they made the statement, to answer a CFR about the statement. Just back it up with the data you have and MS can believe it or not. The CFR would be fulfilled either way. 2
MustardSeed Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I find your insistence on inane provisos on your CFRs laughable so at least we are amusing each other. Nehor. I didn’t make a request that you convince me to believe your stat. I asked you to provide a cfr to back your claim that LDS porn consumption rates are way below the national average. My opinion on whether or not lds people are forthcoming about their porn use is not related to the request for info of where you got your information. I’m not asking you to convince me anything. Please provide or retract. And if there is no data I’m fine with that too. I share opinions all the time here. Edited June 26, 2019 by MustardSeed
MustardSeed Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 24 minutes ago, Raingirl said: Silly boy, don’t you realize that we’re not supposed to believe anything a member of the church says without extensive documentation (and, actually, not then either), but we’re supposed to take anything a non-member says as absolute truth, no questions asked. 🤷♀️ That’s not me.
MustardSeed Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 23 minutes ago, bluebell said: She didn't say you couldn't use self-reported data, only that she would question it's accuracy. I also don't believe that any poster can dictate that another poster can't use the reference they were referring to when they made the statement, to answer a CFR about the statement. Just back it up with the data you have and MS can believe it or not. The CFR would be fulfilled either way. I just saw this. I guess I just repeated what you said, you said it well enough I didn’t need to repeat it. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I eat breakfast very late. I usually only have two meals a day. I can back it up but not with the added restriction of not using any self-reported data since that is realistically the only way to collect data about a geographically diffused demographic group’s internet activities. If you claimed that the church’s membership was over 16 million and I asked for a CFR but stipulated that I did not trust the church’s reporting of their membership numbers would you be able to answer my CFR? Perhaps you should just edit your statement to say self reported p* usage. P* hub ranks Utah in the 30’s for usage per capita BTW. Edited June 26, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
MustardSeed Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) Let me be clear. I’m not in the business at catching anyone, Nehor or anyone else in an error of either facts or expression of thought or rules or grammar. It is my opinion that this type of outwitting game is too easily played here. No one wins with porn use. I have a dog in this game, I need to understand it, and right now I am thinking based on extensive private conversations with members that this is more rampant in the church than most people know. If there is data on this topic I want my hands on it, either way. Let me retract my confrontational call for CFR. I don’t wish anyone to feel on the spot. Edited June 26, 2019 by MustardSeed 1
Tacenda Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: LOL - whatever makes you happy. It is so very easy to blame anyone and everything else, rather than take responsibility for one's actions. It is my parent's faults; it is the school's fault; it is God's fault; it is the Church's fault. One lesson I learned is to consider every instance when things went wrong in life. Now, what is the single most common denominator in each of those events? There is only one - and it is you. Learning that lesson has kept me focused on recognizing my responsibility before blaming anyone or anything else. If someone wants to be happy, they will be happy. The problem is if they want to be unhappy, feel lonely, etc. They are the only one that can fix it because no one else can make "me" do anything. A well researched paper on how religiosity attributes to porn addiction. Don't need to blame just our church, it's many churches. https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2840&context=doctoral Side note: I wonder if we told people to watch porn, tell them they need to watch it. I wonder how many would think ...no way, not going there etc. It's the strangest dichotomy! ETA: Not going to say this is the one and only reason, I know non-religious are addicted as well. But my answer to how could it be such a problem in our LDS faith, could be the reason why. Because surely, in the LDS mind, it's not ok to use pornography. But why is it so prevelant then? I think the answer is in the research paper. I remember being in charge of White Ribbon week at my son's high school one year and made a huge butcher block poster and had students sign and pledge not to use porn. Boy, I really don't know if this helped or made it worse now, hope it didn't make it worse. Edited June 26, 2019 by Tacenda
Calm Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 5 hours ago, changed said: Hurt in the first place? The support groups are damage control after the problem has started. When the damage is done support is needed for victims more than addicts, more than abusers. You are assuming there are victims in every case of addiction, why? But just because an individual has a problem doesn't mean they have hurt others than themselves to the point they are victims. For example, a porn addict who is single and finds it impossible to relate to others in a romantic/sexual way may cause sorrow for their parents, but the only victim is likely himself unless he tries to date or gets married. Addicts of whatever kind are not always abusers save of themselves. A 16 year old young man is truly addicted to porn, not just too involved with it. Stumbled across it when he was ten. Never dated. Should he not get help? Who are his victims who deserve more help than he does?
Calm Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 5 hours ago, bluebell said: That first link is really old. P. Hub doesn't even have Utah in it's top ten this year for states that watch the most P., which I know isn't a direct correlation because P. Hub didn't do the initial study but I don't think we can just assume that the ten year old study is still relevant. In my opinion, any porn usage is too much but I'm more interested in seeing how Utah is doing now than how they were doing ten years ago. Also, the second link does not say that Utah is the #1 child abuser. The article is about the rates of prosecuted and convicted sexual abuse in each state. As is stated by Carrie Jensen of Prevent Child Abuse "Utah has tougher laws than other states and may pursue child abuse more vigorously and that might help explain the high rates." KUTV also did a poor job of reporting equating two different things, incidents of s-xual child abuse and percentage of abuse cases that were sexual. A lower rate of neglect means a higher rate of other types of abuse, though overall numbers might be low (100 reported cases that had 27 s-x abuse cases would have the same rate). Without providing better context (reported or investigated or prosecuted or convicted, percentage per population, adjustment for larger percentage of population being children, etc), the numbers given don't tell us very much beyond abuse is way too common in this state. Quote The state had 6,900 cases in 2014. Of those, 27 percent were sex abuse, the highest rate of any state. Only 13 percent of the cases were neglect, one of the lowest rates among all states. 2
Calm Posted June 26, 2019 Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) Bluedreams is probably the best poster who could comment on LDS usage and how Church teachings might impact such, but she has a busy life right now and I don't suppose people want to put the thread on hold until she gets a chance to post. I will look and see ifvI can find a past post of hers on the subject, but given the search function not much hope. Excellent post by Bluedreams on a related topic, feel the whole thread is a very useful discussion on the topic, but does not deal with rates of use. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70834-deseret-news-moral-judgement-is-not-sufficient-to-diagnose-porn-addiction/?do=findComment&comment=1209838134 The article provided by cinepro that started the thread is a useful one for discussing what should be called addiction and how religious views have an impact on perception, though it doesn't go indepth. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900025617/if-you-view-pornography-a-lot-does-that-make-you-an-addict.html Edited June 26, 2019 by Calm 1
Popular Post Calm Posted June 26, 2019 Popular Post Posted June 26, 2019 (edited) Looking for stats specific to religion instead of states. Found this: ”Fixed-effects regression models show that more frequent pornography viewing diminishes religious service attendance, importance of religious faith, prayer frequency, and perceived closeness to God, while increasing religious doubts. These effects hold regardless of gender. The effects of viewing pornography on importance of faith, closeness to God, and religious doubts are stronger for teenagers compared to emerging adults. In light of the rapidly growing availability and acceptance of pornography for young Americans, our findings suggest that scholars must consider how increasingly pervasive pornography consumption may shape both the religious lives of young adults and also the future landscape of American religion more broadly.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5439973/ Edited June 26, 2019 by Calm 5
Storm Rider Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: A well researched paper on how religiosity attributes to porn addiction. Don't need to blame just our church, it's many churches. https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2840&context=doctoral Side note: I wonder if we told people to watch porn, tell them they need to watch it. I wonder how many would think ...no way, not going there etc. It's the strangest dichotomy! ETA: Not going to say this is the one and only reason, I know non-religious are addicted as well. But my answer to how could it be such a problem in our LDS faith, could be the reason why. Because surely, in the LDS mind, it's not ok to use pornography. But why is it so prevelant then? I think the answer is in the research paper. I remember being in charge of White Ribbon week at my son's high school one year and made a huge butcher block poster and had students sign and pledge not to use porn. Boy, I really don't know if this helped or made it worse now, hope it didn't make it worse. I am positive that i have selective hearing in church meetings. Often I just do not hear things when I don't think they apply or when what is being said is just not interesting. Though I make an effort to listen, I still don't listen to everything. I think that is one reason I don't understand some perspectives about what the church has done or not done over the last decade or two. The "forbidden fruit" has always been the downfall for some humans, if not all humans to one degree or another. Reverse psychology is one thing that often works with small children - my grandson for one. I agree with the proposition that pornography is running rampant in our society. After society being completely hypersexualized in all facets of the media beginning in the 1960s, I find it impossible to think that now that anyone, at any age, and at will, can find pornography on the internet results in individuals not being tempted to watch it at some point. The real issue is those who become addicted to it. I am unaware of any method to protect our young people except by teaching them about healthy human sexuality while also teaching them how God has taught us to use our sexuality. No, the educational system does not come close to doing that - they are one of the worst sources of information on human sexuality today. I am not a fan of promise rings or pledges to do one thing or another. I believe firmly in covenant making between God and his children. Imitations of such should be avoided. Based on the way I was raised, sexuality was an open topic and came up at the dinner table with a degree of regularity. Questions were asked openly and without any fear of being shamed and answers were given in the same manner. No subjects were off limits...ever. I think fundamentally, my mom was teaching us that our actions will always have consequences and when it came to sexuality, our choices may even have more consequences than for others areas of life. My mom was the cornerstone of this part of our family. She was a nurse by training and profession (she put it aside to raise children and then returned to it later in life). She was far more comfortable talking about sex than my dad. She let us know that sex was to be enjoyed within boundaries. I have come the conclusion that our home may have been much more of a safe environment for discussions than other homes. Regardless, I still think it is a better way to raise children - in or outside the church. 3
Bernard Gui Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) On 6/24/2019 at 10:57 AM, changed said: Do you know what I would like to see? 70 videos for those who have been abused with links to professional therapists, and and legal support for those needing to put abusers in jail. OK. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/get-help/abuse/?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/children/resources/topics/abuse?lang=eng&_r=1 https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/how-mormons-approach-abuse https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/gospel-topics/abuse?lang=eng Edited June 27, 2019 by Bernard Gui 2
changed Posted June 27, 2019 Posted June 27, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Calm said: You are assuming there are victims in every case of addiction, why? But just because an individual has a problem doesn't mean they have hurt others than themselves to the point they are victims. For example, a porn addict who is single and finds it impossible to relate to others in a romantic/sexual way may cause sorrow for their parents, but the only victim is likely himself unless he tries to date or gets married. Addicts of whatever kind are not always abusers save of themselves. A 16 year old young man is truly addicted to porn, not just too involved with it. Stumbled across it when he was ten. Never dated. Should he not get help? Who are his victims who deserve more help than he does? Spouses of porn users are my main concern - it feels the same as adultery does, and they should be proactively sought after to provide help to. 27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. As for younger users, date rape - and assaults are way high in college and HS - so yes, there are quite a few young victims. ~25% of women are sexually assaulted, that is how large the problem is. Edited June 27, 2019 by changed
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