Church series on P*** use, 70 videos

[Calm]

1 minute ago, changed said:

 

"I'm not hurting anyone" is the lie that so very many abusers hang on to... 

 

... NCMO??? really??? or did what came up while googling not fit?

But using addict and abuser interchangeably in such a black and white fashion seems to me to be more likely to shame those who see themselves as addicts, who aren't...at least not yet...and may result in them not being open about their problems leading to deeper and harmful practices.

[changed]

16 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I saw a study of committed couples among faculty and staff at a university. The mean relationship length was 9 years with couples scoring a 6.2 out of 7 on a relationship commitment scale. Of those surveyed, 98% of the men and 78% of the women had fantasies about someone other than their partner in the past two months (and those were just the ones who admitted it). I think you are making too many “victims” of adultery here. 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3813261?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

9 years?  ... My grandparents were married 75 years - I would trust data from them... (my grandparents were not religious, and yet loved one another more than any other I know).  

I honestly think the polygamous history of the church - even if in the past - has quite a few still fantasizing about having multiple partners, and justifying adultery.  

I consider polygamy to be adultery.  

Edited June 27, 2019 by changed

[changed]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

But using addict and abuser interchangeably in such a black and white fashion seems to me to be more likely to shame those who see themselves as addicts, who aren't...at least not yet...and may result in them not being open about their problems leading to deeper and harmful practices.

By minimizing the pain and suffering that victims go through, and minimizing and belittling the problem, those who most need support and help are not getting it.

Edited June 27, 2019 by changed

[MustardSeed]

17 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Assault is very much tied to porn - porn is like a gateway drug.  

Can I get more info on this please

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, changed said:

By minimizing the pain and suffering that victims go through, and minimizing and belittling the problem, those who most need support and help are not getting it.

And who is doing that by suggesting not all addicts or those who think themselves are abusers, but rather people should look at the context of their lives?

Using too broad a definition for victims (anyone that has been hurt no matter how temporary an experience or how minimal the pain) is more likely, imo, to cause actual victims of abuse to not be taken as seriously.

It is similar to grouping those with acute depression with those with chronic depression.  It can make it appear that those with chronic depression are personally at fault because treatments and self help behaviours that work for those with situational depression often don't work for those with chronic depression.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

11 minutes ago, changed said:

9 years?  ... My grandparents were married 75 years - I would trust data from them... (my grandparents were not religious, and yet loved one another more than any other I know).  

I honestly think the polygamous history of the church - even if in the past - has quite a few still fantasizing about having multiple partners, and justifying adultery.  

I consider polygamy to be adultery.  

Changing the subject to avoid the cognitive dissonance? The longer the relationship, the greater percentage of fantasies were reported to be of other people, and I sincerely doubt you have any idea what types of fantasies your grandparents had. 

Again, by your definition, essential all men are adulterous. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Opinion here.  The primary problem with your friends husband appears to be his controlling behavior.  Pornography was the vehicle.  His pornography obsession may have perpetuated his control issues but she would do well to focus on that- unfortunately many women obsess about the pornography aspect of the story and see themselves as porn victims.  It’s my opinion that this reduces women. 

Both were a problem (and she knew and told me that) but I am not going to blame her if she put more emphasis on one part of it incorrectly. The correct diagnosis for the situation was just to get out and figuring which problem was worse is more of an abstract question and answering it probably would not have helped her.

34 minutes ago, changed said:

The two tend to go hand -in - hand.  Define victim - unless the addict is a hermit with no family ties, their actions will hurt those around them.  

 

33 minutes ago, changed said:

 

"I'm not hurting anyone" is the lie that so very many abusers hang on to... 

 

... NCMO??? really??? or did what came up while googling not fit?

All addicts are inflicting pain but the person they often hurt the most is themselves. Addicts do tend to almost always cause pain to those around them but that does not mean it is abuse. If I became a porn addict and struggled with it my parents and my siblings would worry and feel sorrow but would I be abusing them? I don’t think so.

NCMO!!! Forgot that was there. It was a joke on the board a long time when I ran a campaign to become a spoof political campaign to become a board moderator. NCMO (Nehor Committee for Moderator *******) was an intentionally forced acronym for the campaign meant to make people think non-commital make out. I forget what the O stood for. Good times. Nightlion was my VP. I miss that guy.

Edited June 27, 2019 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, changed said:

 

For couples where both use porn it is not a big deal.  For most in the church who want a different type of relationship, yes, it is a big deal for those who value loyalty.  

Assault is very much tied to porn - porn is like a gateway drug.  

It can be but most porn users do not commit sexual assault. I would argue alcohol is more of a gateway drug to assault but both of them can. If you are watching violent porn then yeah............much more likely to be a gateway.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Changing the subject to avoid the cognitive dissonance? The longer the relationship, the greater percentage of fantasies were reported to be of other people, and I sincerely doubt you have any idea what types of fantasies your grandparents had. 

Again, by your definition, essential all men are adulterous. 

And pretty much all women.

[BlueDreams]

45 minutes ago, changed said:

For couples where both use porn it is not a big deal.  For most in the church who want a different type of relationship, yes, it is a big deal for those who value loyalty.  

Assault is very much tied to porn - porn is like a gateway drug.  

I am talking from largely lds couples i’ve worked with where only one partner had a problem with p*rn. The effect p*rn had on the relationship is not the same from couple to couple based largely on how they view their spouse’s p*rn problem and the ramifications for said problem in their marriage. I have had several couples who are well differentiated, recognize the problem as their partner’s issue to work through, and where there overall relationship is good or positively growing. For these, p*rn  use most definitely does not have the same effect as an affair. Often the spouse feels little except for concern for their struggling partner. Even for those who do take it as betrayal, the majority of them still dont have the same effect as an affair, having watched the aftermath of both.

 

with luv, 

BD  

[changed]

13 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I am talking from largely lds couples i’ve worked with where only one partner had a problem with p*rn. The effect p*rn had on the relationship is not the same from couple to couple based largely on how they view their spouse’s p*rn problem and the ramifications for said problem in their marriage. I have had several couples who are well differentiated, recognize the problem as their partner’s issue to work through, and where there overall relationship is good or positively growing. For these, p*rn  use most definitely does not have the same effect as an affair. Often the spouse feels little except for concern for their struggling partner. Even for those who do take it as betrayal, the majority of them still dont have the same effect as an affair, having watched the aftermath of both.

 

with luv, 

BD  

 

Yea - I think most LDS couples have a warped sense of loyalty due to their justification of polygamy.  There are different kinds of marriages - some marriages are "open", while others prefer loyalty and fidelity.  I guess the LDs marriage does not call for fidelity, is a polygamous vow, so... I am learning most in the church do not really care or want a monogamous type of thing.  

 

I come from a different background - fidelity is very important to me.  As the temple vows are not public, I did not know Mormon marriages did not include "fidelity" as part of the wedding vow.  Live and learn I guess.  

Edited June 27, 2019 by changed

[changed]

53 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Changing the subject to avoid the cognitive dissonance? The longer the relationship, the greater percentage of fantasies were reported to be of other people, and I sincerely doubt you have any idea what types of fantasies your grandparents had. 

Again, by your definition, essential all men are adulterous. 

Want to know what I think every time someone belittles porn, or claims "everyone" does it, and no one is faithful... 

I do not believe "everyone" is not faithful... I believe the person saying such things is... 

I guess I won't say it.  

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, changed said:

I am learning most in the church do not really care or want a monogamous type of thing.  

??????????

You are definitely not talking to the same people I am talking to.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

21 minutes ago, changed said:

I am learning most in the church do not really care or want a monogamous type of thing.  

This is a messed up thing to say and I’m going to call you out on it. For whatever reason, you’ve got some serious problems thinking clearly and rationally when it comes to the LDS church, addiction, and abuse. Your name is changed, but you are quite static in saying the same illogical and incorrect things over and over. 

[SettingDogStar]

12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is a messed up thing to say and I’m going to call you out on it. For whatever reason, you’ve got some serious problems thinking clearly and rationally when it comes to the LDS church, addiction, and abuse. Your name is changed, but you are quite static in saying the same illogical and incorrect things over and over. 

Yeah I'm not sure who he/she talked to but as far as I've been taught, you know over the pulpit in General Conference to the entire world, we highly value monogamy and fidelity. Even polygamy required strict fidelity to your spouses, admittedly that's hard to handle but it was what was taught. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[pogi]

18 hours ago, changed said:

Look up the number of support groups for abusers in your area, and then look at the number of groups for victims.  It is about 3 to 1, 3 groups for abusers to only 1 group for victims.  Why is this?  

Maybe because it doesn't work for many.  My wife went to support group a few times.  She absolutely hated it.  It was terribly depressing for her.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Maybe because it doesn't work for many.  My wife went to support group a few times.  She absolutely hated it.  It was terribly depressing for her.

I know a lot of people who tried support groups but feel they focused too much in negativity.

I was a constant member of an online support group until I got on a drug that didn't come close to curing me, but made life tolerable.  Since then I only visit the group to get info on new drugs' effectiveness, but since they switched to Facebook it is pretty useless for research.  I felt at that point I had spent enough of my life obsessing about my disorder that I wanted time in my day/week, etc. not to be thinking about my health for once.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Calm

[pogi]

2 hours ago, changed said:

By minimizing the pain and suffering that victims go through, and minimizing and belittling the problem, those who most need support and help are not getting it.

To say that spouses are not victims of porn would be wrong, I agree. But to say that addicts are not victims would be wrong too.

I honestly don't know who needs support the "most".  They both need it for different reasons.

Edited June 27, 2019 by pogi

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I know a lot of people who tried support groups but feel they focused too much in negativity.

I was a constant member of an online support group until I got on a drug that didn't come close to curing me, but made life tolerable.  Since then I only visit the group to get info on new drugs' effectiveness, but since they switched to Facebook it is pretty useless for research.  I felt at that point I had spent enough of my life obsessing about my disorder that I wanted time in my day/week, etc. not to be thinking about my health for once.

Yes, she said it was very negative.  I think that is to be expected in support groups, but she didn't see much focus on healing - sure they read about it in the manuals, but she felt like people wanted to hold on tight to their victim mentality.  She didn't find that uplifting or empowering. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by pogi

[MiserereNobis]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

To say that spouses are not victims of porn would be wrong, I agree. But to say that addicts are not victims of porn would be wrong too.

I honestly don't know who needs support the "most".  They both need it for different reasons.

changed appears to be a very black and white, either/or, zero sum game person. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

Yea - I think most LDS couples have a warped sense of loyalty due to their justification of polygamy.  There are different kinds of marriages - some marriages are "open", while others prefer loyalty and fidelity.  I guess the LDs marriage does not call for fidelity, is a polygamous vow, so... I am learning most in the church do not really care or want a monogamous type of thing.  

 

I come from a different background - fidelity is very important to me.  As the temple vows are not public, I did not know Mormon marriages did not include "fidelity" as part of the wedding vow.  Live and learn I guess.  

Are you okay?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

Assault is very much tied to porn - porn is like a gateway drug.  

This is patently false. Do the vast majority of people who commit sexual assault look at porn? Undoubtedly. Do most murderers eat meat? Yes! So what?

On the one hand we are told porn use has become an epidemic since the dawn of the internet. On the other hand rates of reported violent rape is also down. How does that work?

I think there are plenty of good reasons to oppose porn use, but this is not one of them. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Maybe because it doesn't work for many.  My wife went to support group a few times.  She absolutely hated it.  It was terribly depressing for her.

I also attended two inperson support groups.  One was for my clinical psych degree on group dynamics and therapy and was basically a lab with all my classmates.  Probably the most meaningful and uplifting thing I did in all my college work.  

I wanted to repeat the experience so I signed up with a support group through the university.  This included several who had more extreme issues.  I felt very out of place and depressed after those sessions and quickly dropped out.  

I think support groups work best when people are at similar levels of need and experience.  People who haven't experienced more traumatic experiences may lack the ability to relate, frustrating or even hurting participants who have; they also may be fearful of causing problems for those with deeper hurts or just don't want to take up others' time for what seems to them less urgent issues.  I have been in online support groups that have shutdown when someone came into the group with a different need and monopolized the group in an effort to get the need met, something the group wasn't prepared to do.  There needs to be strong commonalities among group members.  Addicts (actual addicts) have that with their shared disorder having extreme effects on their lives.  Victims have a larger range of experiences as victims, imo, and therefore it may be harder to find those commonalities needed to create a community.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

It is a support group where both addicts and family members are supposed to come?  I would feel very uncomfortable in a mixed group like that.

Wish I had a support group where I am.

No. That does not happen. Separate groups always. You can join a phone group anywhere in the world. Find one here. I hope you can find what you need.

https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, she said it was very negative.  I think that is to be expected in support groups, but she didn't see much focus on healing - sure they read about it in the manuals, but she felt like people wanted to hold on tight to their victim mentality.  She didn't find that uplifting or empowering. 

I have been in groups like that (when trying to find a good fit), wanted to talk more about what was wrong in their lives and how they felt damaged by others than on ways to first survive and then thrive.  There may be a time for the first kind of group, to express pain and anger, but if that is the main function eventually it may interfere with looking for ways to cope and improve one's life.