Speculations for General Conference

[The Nehor]

Hugh Nibley had some thoughts on how the LDS church works:

"Last week it was announced in the papers that a large convention concerned with violence and disorder in our schools came to the unanimous conclusion--students and teachers alike--that the main cause of the mischief was boredom. Underperformance, the job that does not challenge you, can make you sick: work which puts repetition and routine in the place of real work begets a sense of guilt; merely doodling and noodling in committees can give you ulcers, skin rashes, and heart trouble. God is not pleased with us for merely sitting in meetings."

"In Israel today, they have great contests in which young people and old from all parts of the world display their knowledge of scripture and skill at music, science, or mathematics, etc., in grueling competitions. This sort of thing tends to breed a race of insufferably arrogant, conceited little show-offs -- and magnificent performers. They tend to be like the Jews of old, who "sought for things that they could not understand," ever "looking beyond the mark," and hence falling on their faces: "they needs must fall." (Jacob 4:14.) Yet Joseph Smith commends their intellectual efforts as a corrective to the Latter-day Saints, who lean too far in the other direction, giving their young people and old awards for zeal alone, zeal without knowledge--for sitting in endless meetings, for dedicated conformity, and unlimited capacity for suffering boredom. We think it more commendable to get up at 5:00 a.m. to write a bad book than to get up at nine o'clock to write a good one--that is pure zeal that tends to breed a race of insufferable, self-righteous prigs and barren minds. One has only to consider the present outpouring of "inspirational" books in the Church which bring little new in the way of knowledge: truisms, and platitudes, kitsch, and cliches have become our everyday diet. The Prophet would never settle for that. "I advise you to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness . . . . It has always been my province to dig up hidden mysteries, new things, for my hearers." (40) It actually happens at the BYU, and that not rarely, that students come to a teacher, usually at the beginning of a term, with the sincere request that he refrain from teaching them anything new. They have no desire, they explain, to hear what they do not know already! I cannot imagine that happening at any other school, but maybe it does. Unless we go on to other new things, we are stifling our powers."

I don't know what the solution is. I have seen Primary teachers who can keep classes spellbound and engaged. I have seen Sharing Times where you could hear a pin drop because the kids were interested and riveted. I just don't know how to make it happen myself. I have heard sacrament meeting talks that held listener's attention. I do think there is a danger in blaming the listener for being bored when the speaker is.....well.....boring. I do think some listeners do not give speakers a chance and I have been guilty of this. It is easy to justify that I have some church business to check on or work on on my tablet during Sacrament Meeting.

Edited September 7, 2018 by The Nehor

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I wish we had this! Our ward mission leader is often someone who rarely attends due to job issues. No ward missionaries. Oh well.

release him and call one a new and get his suggestions for ward missionaries, take the lead! not them!

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Because of my Job I spend 6hours every Sunday at some type of church activity and leadership.

lds 4 hours

IBC 2 hours

I spend 4 hours every week going out with the missionary for less active and investigator.

I have two boys under 10 who are very active and wiggly, at the LDS Church they are very respectful and play.

at the IBC they do the same.

but Iam also very blessed to have a wife that is understanding and supportive.

 

We are not a typical lds family, my wife was raised in a have member home and served a mission.

i am convert as well as a RM.

we spend a lot of time reading scriptures as well as games.

we have a unusual sleep schedule where we practice second sleep, it has allowed us to spend time together and work on individual talents.

Fascinating.  

Can you tell me what IBC is?

[Sunday21]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

release him and call one a new and get his suggestions for ward missionaries, take the lead! not them!

We have few active members. I suspect that Ward Missionary is considered to be a low priority assignment. Our Ward Mission Leaders are usually someone who can’t fulfill even minor obligations due to health or work issues.

We had a group of Chinese university students who wanted to host rotating Family Home Evenings at which they would invite non members. The students had limited English and resources and were far to shy to organize themselves although they were happy to follow orders. I tried to talk the Ward Mission leader into organizing these evenings but he refused.

In fairness, my area has 1 active person to 5 inactive people. So ministering is challenging. People here often have long standing grievances based on past experiences with calllings that were too demanding. Consequenly people often refuse callings.

[Doctrine 612]

8 hours ago, rockpond said:

Fascinating.  

Can you tell me what IBC is?

Independent Baptist College 

I work as a Professor of New Testament Studies.

[Doctrine 612]

48 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

 I suspect that Ward Missionary is considered to be a low priority assignment.

In a lot of wards I attended, this has been true.

my last ward we made it a priority and twisted a lot of leadership arms and become one of the best wards in the mission, it was very cool because the mission president was visiting our ward a lot to find out what we were doing.

(the secret was having people do the work)

the truth about missionary work is that it’s supposed to be a priority per the chi 2.

5.1.1.

“The bishop and his counselors give priority to member missionary work.”

pri·or·i·ty 

n

1. the fact or condition of being regarded or treated as more important.

   "the safety of the country takes priority overany other matter"

   synonyms:

   prime concern, most important consideration, primary issue More

   • a thing that is regarded as more important than another.

     plural noun: priorities

     "housework didn't figure high on her list of priorities"
   • the right to take precedence or to proceed before others.

     "priority is given to those with press passes"

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

We have few active members. I suspect that Ward Missionary is considered to be a low priority assignment. Our Ward Mission Leaders are usually someone who can’t fulfill even minor obligations due to health or work issues.

We had a group of Chinese university students who wanted to host rotating Family Home Evenings at which they would invite non members. The students had limited English and resources and were far to shy to organize themselves although they were happy to follow orders. I tried to talk the Ward Mission leader into organizing these evenings but he refused.

In fairness, my area has 1 active person to 5 inactive people. So ministering is challenging. People here often have long standing grievances based on past experiences with calllings that were too demanding. Consequenly people often refuse callings.

well, I would recommend the High Councilor over missionary work but he isn't terribly active in the Church either

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

We have few active members. I suspect that Ward Missionary is considered to be a low priority assignment. Our Ward Mission Leaders are usually someone who can’t fulfill even minor obligations due to health or work issues.

 

Not in my ward.  Missionary work is a big calling in my ward, requiring commitments of multiple hours every week.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

We have few active members. I suspect that Ward Missionary is considered to be a low priority assignment. Our Ward Mission Leaders are usually someone who can’t fulfill even minor obligations due to health or work issues.

We had a group of Chinese university students who wanted to host rotating Family Home Evenings at which they would invite non members. The students had limited English and resources and were far to shy to organize themselves although they were happy to follow orders. I tried to talk the Ward Mission leader into organizing these evenings but he refused.

In fairness, my area has 1 active person to 5 inactive people. So ministering is challenging. People here often have long standing grievances based on past experiences with calllings that were too demanding. Consequenly people often refuse callings.

In my experience in a weak ward the only calling more important to fill with a strong dedicated individual then Ward Mission Leader is Bishop. At that point you need growth and reactivations. While the latter should be primarily the duty of the ward the missionaries with member support are often the best resource.

[clarkgoble]

17 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I've seen that play out in many other churches.  Frankly, it's trading short term comfort / laziness for disastrous results in the long term.  People need to learn to be engaged and even when not entertained.  Yes, that sucks to learn, but it doesn't stop sucking at any age.

Typically though we tailor the learning to the age of the person. No one expects kindergarten to be the same as a college lecture for instance. Yet that's exactly what we're doing in Sacrament.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Typically though we tailor the learning to the age of the person. No one expects kindergarten to be the same as a college lecture for instance. Yet that's exactly what we're doing in Sacrament.

Which is what primary is for.  And they still go to Sacrament with everyone else first.

The problem I've seen at churches that kids just go to kids classes, is all they want to do is go to kid classes.  There's seldom a good transition to adult services and an adult relationship with God because adult services are "boring".  

 

[Kate]

19 hours ago, rongo said:

I also think a lot of it shows what the level of family home evening (quality) and home life has been like. Boys with good upbringings don't usually make a big production out of hating singing primary songs. Many boys do this, though, and I think it shines a light on what was or was not done in their homes.

That is a HUGE assumption. I hope people who think like this don't have to learn the hard way that it is not always true. I know my own children, and other families, where the things being done in the home were spot on and yet they still struggled with a child who just didn't want to or like to conform. Seeing my grandchildren now and their VERY strong spirits, there is a lot to be said about the spirit they are before they come to earth. I would hope that you not judge other parents this way....you really have no idea.

[clarkgoble]

21 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Which is what primary is for.  And they still go to Sacrament with everyone else first.

The problem I've seen at churches that kids just go to kids classes, is all they want to do is go to kid classes.  There's seldom a good transition to adult services and an adult relationship with God because adult services are "boring".  

Well arguably the transition of nursery → junior primary → senior primary → sunday school does the job. It's not at all clear why putting kids through an hour and a quarter of adult instruction helps them nor keeps them from eventually never wanting adult services. Now if it was just nursery or adult sunday school I think you'd have a point. 

I'd also add that a huge problem with sacrament is how often it is boring. It's not just kids who see that. More often than not it's something adults do because they're supposed to not because they get much out of it much of the time. Honestly the most meaningful part of sacrament meeting is literally the sacrament. If we went from three talks to one talk I think we'd be much, much better off. I think more laid back and involved lessons are far more productive and typically meaningful.

Edited September 7, 2018 by clarkgoble

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Kate said:

That is a HUGE assumption. I hope people who think like this don't have to learn the hard way that it is not always true. I know my own children, and other families, where the things being done in the home were spot on and yet they still struggled with a child who just didn't want to or like to conform. Seeing my grandchildren now and their VERY strong spirits, there is a lot to be said about the spirit they are before they come to earth. I would hope that you not judge other parents this way....you really have no idea.

I have also noticed that we get our children with spirits they brought from the pre-existence. They are unique people, and some things are simply nature and not nurture, as you said. 

That said, there is an awful lot people can do when they have difficult children, but they have to do it when they're young. Once they reach a certain age, it becomes increasingly hard to influence them. If I had a dollar for every parent who has no influence over their kids, and feels powerless about it . . . 

The problem as I see it is that too many people today bristle at any suggestion that they could have had better outcomes if they had or hadn't done certain things (or done them differently). When this is ever suggested, they are making assumptions, they don't know, they have no idea, etc. is the only response that is acceptable. But it isn't always or mostly true. And I think the pendulum has shifted in the Church to where one can never encourage parents to parent more or better, that is simply beyond the pale. It is never the parents' fault; the spirits they were given as children are already set and the die is cast. I think the trending results speak for themselves, generally. 

[clarkgoble]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hugh Nibley had some thoughts on how the LDS church works:

The older I've gotten the less sympathetic to Nibley's more cultural critiques I become. Part of it is because clearly he's an intellectual and loves that sort of thing. However where it goes astray is in thinking everyone ought enjoy exactly what he does. Put an other way there's a certain hypocrisy in what he says. (IMO) I don't think Nibley was terribly good and understanding the more typical Mormon. He just elevated knowledge too high - especially knowledge that I think one could even argue was less helpful either religiously or practically yet was the sort of knowledge he loved. Look, I enjoy Nibley's apologetics even if far too often he's dancing around the central questions in a fashion that seemed designed to distract. But at the same time most of all that historic knowledge is kind of pointless too.

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don't know what the solution is. I have seen Primary teachers who can keep classes spellbound and engaged. I have seen Sharing Times where you could hear a pin drop because the kids were interested and riveted. I just don't know how to make it happen myself. I have heard sacrament meeting talks that held listener's attention.

The problem is that in any large ward there's only a small number of people who can teach that way. Even those people can't keep it up every week. You then have to figure out where to place them. And that gets even more difficult if they also have skills useful as leaders.

There's a lot of strength to a lay ministry with the laity teaching the classes. However there's also the problem that you'll get a lot of poor or boring lessons. Throw in the fact that you have such a ridiculous range of backgrounds. What's interesting to many people will be completely boring to me. What's completely interesting to me would be completely boring to the majority of the class.

[Jeanne]

After recent days on different boards...I am hoping that they will decide they can do without fancy padding underneath carpets or for go expensive anything so that they can get more stamps for sending missionary letters...instead of email.....for heaven's and Saints sake.

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There's a lot of strength to a lay ministry with the laity teaching the classes. However there's also the problem that you'll get a lot of poor or boring lessons. Throw in the fact that you have such a ridiculous range of backgrounds. What's interesting to many people will be completely boring to me. What's completely interesting to me would be completely boring to the majority of the class.

This is also a factor in the "public vs. private or charter school" debate. My old stake had a lot of families that sent their kids to "better" schools and "better" districts so they could get a "better" education and environment. This meant that there were fewer good LDS kids in the local public school system, but it also meant (and means) that these kids and families are being cheated out of one of the valuable experiences: dealing with boring/incompetent/bad teachers, classes, and situations. When you only ever have "good" situations, you don't learn to deal with the "bad" ones that you are going to face in life (and in the Church). I think this is one of many factors in the complicated calculus of what youth are facing today, and why so many of them don't do that well on their missions, in school, in young adulthood (courtship, employment, church service, etc.). They've been coddled in "ideal" circumstances, with the best of intentions. But, they've been "cheated" out of some of the most valuable ones. 

In my experience in education and in the Church, I think one of the big separators of the "cream of the crop" from the average or sub-average is how they react to boring/bad/incompetent people and situations. The creme de la creme are leaders and help and thrive anyway. They become lights in their classes and help lift others up, rather than bemoaning how inferior this is for *them*. 

All of the indictments about church being boring are true. Guilty as charged. But the real lights show up even better with that contrast. 

[Jane_Doe]

34 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Well arguably the transition of nursery → junior primary → senior primary → sunday school does the job. It's not at all clear why putting kids through an hour and a quarter of adult instruction helps them nor keeps them from eventually never wanting adult services. Now if it was just nursery or adult sunday school I think you'd have a point. 

Again, having watched that this play down in many non-LDS churches, the sequence as I've seen it usually goes like this:

Nursery -> Kids classes with candy -> Horse around in teenage classes -> Turn atheist.

There is MAJOR struggle for them to get a person to transition to adult services and an adult relationships with Christ.  

[Rain]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

I have also noticed that we get our children with spirits they brought from the pre-existence. They are unique people, and some things are simply nature and not nurture, as you said. 

That said, there is an awful lot people can do when they have difficult children, but they have to do it when they're young. Once they reach a certain age, it becomes increasingly hard to influence them. If I had a dollar for every parent who has no influence over their kids, and feels powerless about it . . . 

The problem as I see it is that too many people today bristle at any suggestion that they could have had better outcomes if they had or hadn't done certain things (or done them differently). When this is ever suggested, they are making assumptions, they don't know, they have no idea, etc. is the only response that is acceptable. But it isn't always or mostly true. And I think the pendulum has shifted in the Church to where one can never encourage parents to parent more or better, that is simply beyond the pale. It is never the parents' fault; the spirits they were given as children are already set and the die is cast. I think the trending results speak for themselves, generally. 

Parents can and do make a difference. We really should be teaching that parents have that responsibility. We read in the scriptures and hear in conference about this and I fully support teaching through them. 

The ONLY problem I have with all this is when people assume what kind of parent a child had based on the child's behavior. 

When you talk about what you do with your family I find that there is so much that matches in our parenting choices ' SAHM, reliance on things other than technology, few material things, gathering together as a family, discussing scriptures etc. Yet, I have one child that was and is a real struggle and 2 children that people can say nothing, but good about. What I have learned is that my parenting can make a difference in their lives, but what they do with their agency does not show what kind of parenting I have.

So I do bristle about the idea that I could make better choices as a parent. I bristle because I can't do anything about it now,  because many assume I didn't make better parenting choices when I did despite the actions of my children, because we all can make better parenting choices. But mostly because I have empathy for the parent just starting to go through what I went through and don't want the assumptions becoming an extra burden on them..

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

After recent days on different boards...I am hoping that they will decide they can do without fancy padding underneath carpets or for go expensive anything so that they can get more stamps for sending missionary letters...instead of email.....for heaven's and Saints sake.

I think people in the US have a lot more faith in the mail service than they should, especially international.  Half the letters my son sent up to Canada got sent the wrong place or lost completely, it feels like.  We even got calls from people around the city saying "it looked important, thought it better to call then put it back in the mail" so they had gone to the trouble of looking us up in the phone book.

Down in the US...

When I was forced to send through the mail service documents to an insurance company, two out of three sends got lost even though I sent them certified.  One was eventually found, the other not.

Last time I paid to get a letter sent overnight, it showed up a week later.

Email with its instant confirmation that someone has received it makes so much sense to me as one who hates receiving and sending mail.  It would be nice if they offered the option of receiving an additional hard copy through snail mail.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Again, having watched that this play down in many non-LDS churches, the sequence as I've seen it usually goes like this:

Nursery -> Kids classes with candy -> Horse around in teenage classes -> Turn atheist.

There is MAJOR struggle for them to get a person to transition to adult services and an adult relationships with Christ.  

But that may have nothing to do with being required to sit.

My adult relationship with Christ came about due to my struggles outside of church and what I learned from watching others.  I can point to a handful of conference talks that taught me important principles as well...talks I either read or listened to sitting on the couch in pjs.

Sacrament Meeting talks have helped me feel part of the community, given me insights into others, but .I can't remember any experience where I felt it moved my relationship with Christ to a more mature understanding because I was listening while sitting among other believers.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Calm

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

 If we went from three talks to one talk I think we'd be much, much better off. I think more laid back and involved lessons are far more productive and typically meaningful.

In my dream scenario, we limit sacrament meeting talks to 14 minutes each.  Max.   Two sacrament speakers.  Throw in a youth or two as appropriate for your ward.  And if one speaker goes short, the second speaker is instructed to NOT try to make up for it.  Nobody goes longer than 15 minutes.

Here's my logic:  If you look at the length of the apostles' talks in Gen Con, they are generally in the 14-16 minute range.  And they are apostles AND, essentially, professional public speakers.  We shouldn't be going longer than them.

 

[Calm]

Very good logic, imo.

[clarkgoble]

28 minutes ago, rockpond said:

In my dream scenario, we limit sacrament meeting talks to 14 minutes each.  Max.   Two sacrament speakers.  Throw in a youth or two as appropriate for your ward.  And if one speaker goes short, the second speaker is instructed to NOT try to make up for it.  Nobody goes longer than 15 minutes.

Again what would be ideal runs into the face of the reality of having three wards meeting in the same building. Let's say the second speaker isn't supposed to make up for the short time. So Sacrament lets out 10-15 minutes early. That means you have people in the hallways waiting for Sunday School to begin, which can't because the other ward is using the classes. People have nothing to do but talk which gets loud and disruptive to the other ward. You could try to avoid some of that by putting Sacrament last but that still doesn't solve all the problems. (Although I confess I always liked Sacrament last best - but I understand why they moved to requiring it to be first)

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think people in the US have a lot more faith in the mail service than they should, especially international.  Half the letters my son sent up to Canada got sent the wrong place or lost completely, it feels like.  We even got calls from people around the city saying "it looked important, thought it better to call then put it back in the mail" so they had gone to the trouble of looking us up in the phone book.

That's surprising. In certain ways I always found Canadian mail far more reliable than American mail. The main differences is that Canada moved a few decades earlier towards those clumps of mail boxes rather than home delivery. (You see that in most new subdivisions where the mail deliver just goes to that collection of mail boxes rather than going to a mail box at each house) Also Canada never had Saturday delivery. Which I honestly think is a good thing. As an owner of a business I hate that a cheque may be delivered on Saturday and left in the mailbox to be stolen when no one is there.

That said, I'm honestly surprised at the backlash to mission calls by email. That seems far more reliable although I suppose there's always the problem of spam folders catching it. Heaven knows I've missed emails that accidentally went in the spam folder. If texting is an option though that's even better.

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Again, having watched that this play down in many non-LDS churches, the sequence as I've seen it usually goes like this:

Nursery -> Kids classes with candy -> Horse around in teenage classes -> Turn atheist.

There is MAJOR struggle for them to get a person to transition to adult services and an adult relationships with Christ.  

That seems more a problem with their classes than something intrinsic to it. It has nothing to do with preparing kids for their adult services that I can see.

 

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Again what would be ideal runs into the face of the reality of having three wards meeting in the same building. Let's say the second speaker isn't supposed to make up for the short time. So Sacrament lets out 10-15 minutes early. That means you have people in the hallways waiting for Sunday School to begin, which can't because the other ward is using the classes. People have nothing to do but talk which gets loud and disruptive to the other ward. You could try to avoid some of that by putting Sacrament last but that still doesn't solve all the problems. (Although I confess I always liked Sacrament last best - but I understand why they moved to requiring it to be first)

You could keep everyone in the chapel until the regular time to let out.   People could visit quietly, like they do before sacrament meeting.