Speculations for General Conference

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Why would you want to have two hour church, what are you going to do, it’s the sabbath a day to learn about the Lord, pray, meditate etc..

i for one would love a 4 hour 

 

I'm guessing you wouldn't if you had to be the sole person responsible for 4 kids, two of them not yet old enough to go to nursery but old enough to walk, for those 4 hours.  

 

[rockpond]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm guessing you wouldn't if you had to be the sole person responsible for 4 kids, two of them not yet old enough to go to nursery but old enough to walk, for those 4 hours.  

 

So true.  We don't know where @Doctrine 612 is in his/her life journey but I can almost guarantee that it's not the stage of having kids at church who are under 18 months.

For me, Sacrament meeting is often a struggle  Sometimes its great but sometimes my four kids are not behaving (or they think its nap time) and I'm not really able to focus.  Sunday school is nice because, at present, my wife and I are able to attend together (haven't been able to do that for a long time).  And then third hour I am in YM with one of my sons... so that's nice as well.  Not that you have to have family members in a class to make it enjoyable... I think it's that after many years of serving in callings that kept me away from my family on Sundays, it's a nice change to be with them.

Edited September 6, 2018 by rockpond

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

So true.  We don't know where @Doctrine 612 is in his/her life journey but I can almost guarantee that it's not the stage of having kids at church who are under 18 months.

For me, Sacrament meeting is often a struggle  Sometimes its great but sometimes my four kids are not behaving (or they think its nap time) and I'm not really able to focus.

Sometimes it feels like church is set up to benefit a very specific kind of person (no or only older kids, enjoys sitting quietly for long periods of time, is ok with minimum or small-talk socializing, hears well in noisy environments, and can worship while being stressed with accomplishing a sunday calling) and that everyone who does not fit into that mold is kind of asked to just suffer in the name of "doing what you should be doing when you should be doing it".

I don't think that church has to be as hard for some of us as we've set it up to be.

[Duncan]

My parents remember , as i'm sure others here as well, when Church meetings was at different times of the day and week, So on sunday it was sacrament mtg and then 3 hours later it was something else and then later something else. In the week it was whatever else as well. One thing they said it was like in life you were always coming and going to Church and they breathed a huge sigh f relief in 1980? when they consolidated everything. One thing my Mom said too was the activity rate was low when it was just an hour, are you really going to get kids up and out for an hour or two? some would and some wouldn't and didn't. Would you brave the winter on the bus for that time as well? or get handi transit in you're a senior and have to have them come back in a hour or two as well? if they move to the 2 hour schedule, I wonder what the activity rate would be

[clarkgoble]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes it feels like church is set up to benefit a very specific kind of person (no or only older kids, enjoys sitting quietly for long periods of time, is ok with minimum or small-talk socializing, hears well in noisy environments, and can worship while being stressed with accomplishing a sunday calling) and that everyone who does not fit into that mold is kind of asked to just suffer in the name of "doing what you should be doing when you should be doing it".

I don't think that church has to be as hard for some of us as we've set it up to be.

Fully agree. Sacrament in particular is brutal for kids and parents with kids. Honestly I frequently wonder who's even able to listen. I kind of yearn for the old school pre-block era when you had Sunday School in the morning and had sacrament as part of that. Not that I want evening Sacrament Meeting or Tuesday night Primary. However I think the old morning Sunday School & PH shows how compressed things can get. (There was only early Priesthood & no Relief Society back then)

I'm not advocating a 2 hour block like some are. Most people simply don't study/read during the week so Church is the only real religious instruction they get. Particularly with kids that's significant since often Family Home Evening doesn't necessarily get great lessons when you have a range of ages. Hard to appeal simultaneously for a 12 year old and 4 year old.

Again though the limit is the limited number of classrooms and the issue of having multiple wards meet in a single meeting house.

Edited September 6, 2018 by clarkgoble

[ksfisher]

15 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Sacrament in particular is brutal for kids and parents with kids. Honestly I frequently wonder who's even able to listen.

But you do learn how to sit and listen.  Maybe you're not able to do it as a child, but you see your parents and other adults being reverent and you learn how an adult is supposed to behave in sacrament meeting.  It's a learning experience for the child and a teaching opportunity for the parent.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

But you do learn how to sit and listen.  Maybe you're not able to do it as a child, but you see your parents and other adults being reverent and you learn how an adult is supposed to behave in sacrament meeting.  It's a learning experience for the child and a teaching opportunity for the parent.

I agree.  It’s a great way to model sitting still in a church meeting for little kids.

But that’s not the purpose of the meeting. If that’s all a person is able to get out of Sacrament meeting, because of factors out of their control, that’s not really a successful church meeting. 

[rockpond]

I can’t help but think of how much easier a 2-hour block would be on those who serve in primary and nursery. 

The flip side of that is that my daughters really love primary.  (My sons... not so much.)

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I can’t help but think of how much easier a 2-hour block would be on those who serve in primary and nursery. 

The flip side of that is that my daughters really love primary.  (My sons... not so much.)

Primary, like school, is set up in a way that appeals much more to girls than boys, in general. 

When I was music leader in primary it was always the boys who struggled and tried hardest not to to be forced to participate. 

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  It’s a great way to model sitting still in a church meeting for little kids.

But that’s not the purpose of the meeting. If that’s all a person is able to get out of Sacrament meeting, because of factors out of their control, that’s not really a successful church meeting. 

I would disagree with your conclusion (respectfully).  We come to church to give and receive instruction in the gospel.  We come to participate in His work.  Part is this work is teaching children. 

[clarkgoble]

35 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

But you do learn how to sit and listen.  Maybe you're not able to do it as a child, but you see your parents and other adults being reverent and you learn how an adult is supposed to behave in sacrament meeting.  It's a learning experience for the child and a teaching opportunity for the parent.

True but for over an hour? That's asking a lot of little ones. (And honestly even older people) Further it seems like one of those "we'll train you to be able to do stand the training." That is you're training young kids to deal with boredom because the meetings are boring. It's kind of circular in a very unhelpful way. For adults you don't have the same issues kids do and sitting for boring meetings is much more manageable. At a minimum I'd say there ought be a nursery for Sacrament - except that of course that's completely unworkable given the shared meeting houses.

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Primary, like school, is set up in a way that appeals much more to girls than boys, in general. 

When I was music leader in primary it was always the boys who struggled and tried hardest not to to be forced to participate. 

So, so true. While they've improved some of the primary manuals, so many seem far too advanced for the age group. Further they're really unhelpful for people who don't already have a lot of kids in the Sunbeam through Stars ages. A couple of paragraphs. Far too much then ends up with teachers just handing out coloring pages and treats. It can be rather overwhelming for people without experience with kids to deal with - the manuals really offer very little in suggestions of how on earth to cover the time period. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

At a minimum I'd say there ought be a nursery for Sacrament - except that of course that's completely unworkable given the shared meeting houses.

I've seen that play out in many other churches.  Frankly, it's trading short term comfort / laziness for disastrous results in the long term.  People need to learn to be engaged and even when not entertained.  Yes, that sucks to learn, but it doesn't stop sucking at any age.

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would disagree with your conclusion (respectfully).  We come to church to give and receive instruction in the gospel.  We come to participate in His work.  Part is this work is teaching children. 

I think our main disagreement is in the idea that the purpose of church is to train kids to sit still in meetings.  While I think that being able to sit still when necessary is a good and advantageous thing and something that kids need to learn, I don't believe it is one of the reasons that God asks us to go to attend sacrament meeting.

[ksfisher]

13 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

rue but for over an hour? That's asking a lot of little ones. (And honestly even older people) Further it seems like one of those "we'll train you to be able to do stand the training." That is you're training young kids to deal with boredom because the meetings are boring. It's kind of circular in a very unhelpful way. For adults you don't have the same issues kids do and sitting for boring meetings is much more manageable. At a minimum I'd say there ought be a nursery for Sacrament - except that of course that's completely unworkable given the shared meeting houses.

I think we're gravitating more and more towards a society that cannot sit still without being entertained. 

[rongo]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes it feels like church is set up to benefit a very specific kind of person (no or only older kids, enjoys sitting quietly for long periods of time, is ok with minimum or small-talk socializing, hears well in noisy environments, and can worship while being stressed with accomplishing a sunday calling) and that everyone who does not fit into that mold is kind of asked to just suffer in the name of "doing what you should be doing when you should be doing it".

I don't think that church has to be as hard for some of us as we've set it up to be.

There is a lot of truth to this, but I think there is great value (eternal value, too) in people who are not "that type of people" learning and improving. I think of the Blaise Pascal quote I like: "All human evils come from this: the inability of people to sit still in a room." 

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Primary, like school, is set up in a way that appeals much more to girls than boys, in general. 

When I was music leader in primary it was always the boys who struggled and tried hardest not to to be forced to participate. 

This is also true, and as a male and a teacher I am keenly aware of how school (and school settings at church) is designed much more in favor of girls than boys, in general. There needs to be a balance between expecting boys to learn the rules of civilization (my phrase) and expecting boys to act like girls. In a lot of things --- church being one of them --- it is of great advantage for people (girls and boys) to learn to "sit still in a room." 

We have an epidemic now of all church members --- adults, teenagers, and kids --- generally not being able to make it through sacrament meeting without getting up several times to "get a drink," "use the restroom," or "just walk around a little." This is true, even when the speakers are good and engaging. When you sit on the stand, it is amazing to see how much getting up and walking around there is, and it isn't just the little kids. As a people (mirroring society), we are losing "the ability to sit still in a room," and sacrament meeting isn't that long. And even when it's mind-numbingly boring, people should still be able to sit and think their thoughts, try to apply what they're hearing, or even read other things. 

My last ward's second-to-last primary presidency was outstanding in many ways --- super outstanding. But, they had no discipline or control of sharing time at all, and their own children were the worst offenders (free-range parenting to an extreme). Addressing it with them did no good, and there was a lot of potential for offense on all of their part. They were dynamite in many ways that mattered most, and when they were released, the new president was a sharp, no-nonsense Brazilian, with my wife and a stake presidency member's wife as counselors. There was a new sheriff in town, and it was a real struggle at first. As we encouraged them through the dark times we emphasized the tangible improvement being made in the area of "the rules of civilization." The kids were learning to follow instructions, sit and participate, and contribute to a reverent atmosphere. After several months, huge improvement took place, and primary was much more conducive to growth, progress, and learning. 

This "rules of civilization" focus strongly favors girls' natural natures, as you pointed out, but I think it is very important for the boys to learn to sit, focus, and delay gratification, even if it is a struggle for them. It makes them successful in so many more areas down the road, including church, work, school, and life. 

4 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I've seen that play out in many other churches.  Frankly, it's trading short term comfort / laziness for disastrous results in the long term.  People need to learn to be engaged and even when not entertained.  Yes, that sucks to learn, but it doesn't stop sucking at any age.

Yeah, I'll take noisy and distracting sacrament meetings where parents and the ward try to teach the young ones "the rules of civilization" with varying degrees of success over doing what other churches do and not have them there at all. When our Austrian friend came to church with us (he visits us every summer), he was blown away by how loud sacrament meeting is from children. But he didn't automatically think they should "get rid of those kids!" either. He also commented that he had never seen so many pregnant women at one time in his life!  

My wife did a really good job solo, and my kids were really easy and made it look easy, but it wasn't always easy (I never sat with my family, having served in three bishoprics as a counselor and as a bishop twice while they were growing up). I remember my wife purposely taking one of my sons out of sacrament meeting, and he said loudly, "Don't spank me, mommy!"  We taught our kids to behave and listen during sacrament meeting, and if we had to take them out . . . they would wish we hadn't. There's not a lot of that, any more, either. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

There is a lot of truth to this, but I think there is great value (eternal value, too) in people who are not "that type of people" learning and improving. I think of the Blaise Pascal quote I like: "All human evils come from this: the inability of people to sit still in a room." 

This supposes though that the kind of person that church caters to (for lack of a better term) is the kind of person that God prefers.  I do agree that we all benefit from being able to sit still in a room, but is that the purpose of church?  Is God trying to mold us all to have one personality type?  I don't think He is.

Quote

We have an epidemic now of all church members --- adults, teenagers, and kids --- generally not being able to make it through sacrament meeting without getting up several times to "get a drink," "use the restroom," or "just walk around a little." This is true, even when the speakers are good and engaging. When you sit on the stand, it is amazing to see how much getting up and walking around there is, and it isn't just the little kids. As a people (mirroring society), we are losing "the ability to sit still in a room," and sacrament meeting isn't that long. And even when it's mind-numbingly boring, people should still be able to sit and think their thoughts, try to apply what they're hearing, or even read other things. 

I completely agree, but as I'm sure you know, when you have little kids, the bolded part is not always/usually an option.  And if you are expected to go years getting no spiritual nourishment out of Church, that can be really really hard and depressing.

Quote

 

This "rules of civilization" focus strongly favors girls' natural natures, as you pointed out, but I think it is very important for the boys to learn to sit, focus, and delay gratification, even if it is a struggle for them. It makes them successful in so many more areas down the road, including church, work, school, and life. 

 

 

 

I'm not even sure that it's the 'rules of civilization' that the boys, at least the ones that i interacted with, struggled with.  I never had problems in singing times with boys who could not sit still for the required time.  The problem was how much they detested singing time in general.  They could not relate to the songs, they viewed them as babyish and silly, and they saw no point to the whole endeavor.  I love primary songs and getting rid of singing time isn't an option as far as I'm concerned.  I just think that finding ways to engage boys (while still keeping the rules of civilization) should be one of the church's goals.

Edited September 6, 2018 by bluebell

[rongo]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This supposes though that the kind of person that church caters to (for lack of a better term) is the kind of person that God prefers.  I do agree that we all benefit from being able to sit still in a room, but is that the purpose of church?  Is God trying to mold us all to have one personality type?  I don't think He is.

It's not *the* purpose of church, but it's a significant benefit and skill church gives. A by-product or residual benefit. 

I think self-discipline, delayed gratification, etc. are hallmarks of a celestial person, so in that sense, I think God "prefers" people who have gained self-mastery. Not that he loves them better.

I completely agree, but as I'm sure you know, when you have little kids, the bolded part is not always/usually an option.  And if you are expected to go years getting no spiritual nourishment out of Church, that can be really really hard and depressing.

Many mothers really struggle with this. Hopefully, people are self-reliant on their own and can "fill their tanks" with personal study and personal interactions when the nightmare funhouse of sacrament meeting takes that off the table (hopefully very temporarily). 

I'm not even sure that it's the 'rules of civilization' that the boys, at least the ones that i interacted with, struggled with.  I never had problems in singing times with boys who could not sit still for the required time.  The problem was how much they detested singing time in general.  They could not relate to the songs, they viewed them as babyish and silly, and they saw no point to the whole endeavor.  I love primary songs and getting rid of singing time isn't an option as far as I'm concerned.

What's funny, or interesting, is that my wife and I have observed that it comes and goes in waves. Some of our kids have "great" kids in their cohort (school and church), and some lost the lottery with theirs. Some of my sons were the only ones singing, and some of them had lots of great boys their age who strengthened and helped each other. To some extent, it's just luck of the draw. 

I also think a lot of it shows what the level of family home evening (quality) and home life has been like. Boys with good upbringings don't usually make a big production out of hating singing primary songs. Many boys do this, though, and I think it shines a light on what was or was not done in their homes. 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think our main disagreement is in the idea that the purpose of church is to train kids to sit still in meetings

I wouldn't say, and don't think I have, that that is the "main" purpose.  But one of the things that is taught in church by adults, to children, is how to behave in church.

Edited September 6, 2018 by ksfisher

[Calm]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes it feels like church is set up to benefit a very specific kind of person (no or only older kids, enjoys sitting quietly for long periods of time, is ok with minimum or small-talk socializing, hears well in noisy environments, and can worship while being stressed with accomplishing a sunday calling) and that everyone who does not fit into that mold is kind of asked to just suffer in the name of "doing what you should be doing when you should be doing it".

I don't think that church has to be as hard for some of us as we've set it up to be.

Don't forget "and has no back problems".

I have hated pews all of my life except one very old ward that curved them to naturally fit.  Even all wood they were heaven compared to the usual right angle, can't put my feet flat on the floor, if only I could sprawl but instead I am going to die pews.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I think we're gravitating more and more towards a society that cannot sit still without being entertained. 

If God wants me to sit still, he should have given me a decent back and left out the tail bone.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Calm

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Don't forget "and has no back problems".

I have hated pews all of my life except one very old ward that curved them to naturally fit.  Even all wood they were heaven compared to the usual right angle, can't put my feet flat on the floor, if only I could sprawl but instead I am going to die pews.

This is so true.  My husband had a back issue for a couple of months and the pews were torture.

[Sunday21]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

A ward usually has several ward missionaries, one of which is the WML and presides over the others.

Thanks,

-Smac

I wish we had this! Our ward mission leader is often someone who rarely attends due to job issues. No ward missionaries. Oh well.

[Doctrine 612]

8 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Would you ever max out?  How do you balance your time (in this hypothetical) between group and personal worship?

Would you appreciate a 5-hour block?  6? 8? ...

Because of my Job I spend 6hours every Sunday at some type of church activity and leadership.

lds 4 hours

IBC 2 hours

7 hours ago, rockpond said:

I would bet that there are opportunities for you to add to your Sabbath experience:

Do you have a ward choir you could join?

Our Stake has Sunday evening classes that they are always encouraging people to attend. 

You could ask a bishopric member if there are committees you could serve on. 

Help the missionaries?

Offer to teach a Bible study class in a local assisted living home for those who aren’t able to get to church services. 

Just throwing out ideas.

I spend 4 hours every week going out with the missionary for less active and investigator.

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm guessing you wouldn't if you had to be the sole person responsible for 4 kids, two of them not yet old enough to go to nursery but old enough to walk, for those 4 hours.  

 

I have two boys under 10 who are very active and wiggly, at the LDS Church they are very respectful and play.

at the IBC they do the same.

but Iam also very blessed to have a wife that is understanding and supportive.

 

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

So true.  We don't know where @Doctrine 612 is in his/her life journey but I can almost guarantee that it's not the stage of having kids at church who are under 18 months.

For me, Sacrament meeting is often a struggle  Sometimes its great but sometimes my four kids are not behaving (or they think its nap time) and I'm not really able to focus.  Sunday school is nice because, at present, my wife and I are able to attend together (haven't been able to do that for a long time).  And then third hour I am in YM with one of my sons... so that's nice as well.  Not that you have to have family members in a class to make it enjoyable... I think it's that after many years of serving in callings that kept me away from my family on Sundays, it's a nice change to be with them.

We are not a typical lds family, my wife was raised in a have member home and served a mission.

i am convert as well as a RM.

we spend a lot of time reading scriptures as well as games.

we have a unusual sleep schedule where we practice second sleep, it has allowed us to spend time together and work on individual talents.

[Sunday21]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

If God wants me to sit still, he should have given me a decent back and left out the tail bone.

Hardware stores often sell a soft shell specifically for hard seats like pews. I lived in a city in which we held concerts in churches. The little soft seats were very popular and light to carry. 

[Calm]

I have a gel seat I take everywhere with me these days, but it is the angle as much as the hardness.  I need a recliner pew.