Speculations for General Conference

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

The worst thing is when the electric company starts referring people facing shutoff to the local bishops because they have seen so many Zion's Bank checks from the Church used to pay bills.

I've never seen that, but I had heard that one landlord in the ward would give people the bishop's phone number when they moved in.

[ksfisher]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But, if nothing changes, that's o.k. too.  Church is never going to work perfectly for everyone all the time.  We are all different and have different needs. 

This is a good observation.  The church can never be all things to all people.  With the church becoming more global it would seem as if this will only become more of a challenge.

[Rain]

50 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The conversation on this big 2-hour block speculation/gossip keeps circling around to how 3-hour church is difficult.

I want to just want to put it out there (again) that a two hour block has the ability to solve a very real building shortage problem in my area.

I don't look at this as we've become too lazy or our attention spans are too short so we need 2-hour church.  It does, however, push more of the gospel instruction responsibility back on the parents/family.  That  makes me a little nervous because even though I am committed to teaching the gospel to my children, I also know how easy it can get brushed aside when other, more urgent, concerns arise (as they often do).

I understand the concern.  We have FHE nearly every week. We study the scriptures together. We have many gospel discussions and still a couple of weeks ago we discovered a key doctrine or teaching that my 17yo did not know and he loves seminary, is a great youthing leader, reads on his own and has wisdom beyond his years.  I kept going over and over in my mind trying to figure out how we missed teaching him that.

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What was this supposed to link to?

Click on it a second time.  I got nothing the first time, but it came up the second.

[pogi]

This just in - take it for what it’s worth.  This is coming from the gossip queen (my wife’s grandma), who heard it from a church architect.   She says that the 2 hour block is a for sure thing this conference.  The idea is to fit 4 wards into one building in order to open up funds for new temples.  She said that RS/EQ will rotate every other week with Sunday school.

This is the second person who has confirmed this to me.  The other person is my wife’s aunt who claims that her friends ward has been piloting the program in Pleasant Grove, UT.  

We’ll see.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I agree that leaders need to be sensitive to individual circumstances and needs. When I was called the first time, we had one week to call everyone in the ward and have it up and running the next week (brand new ward). During that week, I thought that we had been unfair in criticizing paid clergy ---- it would have been nice to be able to work full time on that during the week instead of after hours.  

Amen, and amen. I just never had a problem being the one to do that with people (sometimes assisted by the RS president or HPGL, but usually me). 

Amen, Amen, and AMEN. Most who abuse it do so knowingly; others because they have been conditioned to because leaders have just paid for everything. 

I was a very good bishop at teaching and enforcing welfare principles. This meant that the chronicly needy people needed to move after a couple of months because assistance is temporary and has to lead to progress (i.e., it has to put them in a position to be able to be self-reliant. If it actually won't help them, and they're just going to continually need assistance, then they are going to have to make drastic changes. These come out in the wash in the Needs and Resource Analysis). When I was called a second time, I inherited a more than $30,000 fast offering deficit. The Sunday I was set apart, I had seven "regular customer" families waiting to meet with me after church. Cutting them off (which is what ultimately needed to be done --- they weren't serious about being self-reliant) was painful, not fun, and time-consuming. There were a lot of bad feelings and even some death threats. All moved out of the area. But it wouldn't have been fair, appropriate, or best for me to have punted them to ward auxiliary leaders, especially that very first Sunday. That's why the bishop makes the big bucks.  

I find that frontloading the "not fun" teaching and enforcing of welfare principles pays dividends long-term. 

I agree, but most people won't turn to family until the bishop makes them. I find that every time people have insisted that they have exhausted their family resources, when the church doesn't offer assistance, family is magically able to help (if not always happily or willingly).

Thing is, that it is almost by design that it is an emergency when people need help. They need to meet with you NOW! because the electric or water is being disconnected today, or the house is being foreclosed on tomorrow, or the car is being repo'd at any time if they aren't paid NOW! I can't tell you how many times people frantically schedule to meet with you on the day of the disconnect at 5:00, and you say, "Why did you let this get to this point?" It is usually, consciously or subconsciously, because it is leverage to have it be that imminent. It's a form of forcing your hand. Which means, even when meeting with an auxiliary president, they're going to have to meet with the bishop, anyway. And, it should be the bishop who is the ultimate "bad cop" if they need to be told that no help is going to be given. I think leaving that to auxiliary presidents is cowardly.

Bishops can certainly delegate, and more and more are delegating more and more. I don't believe that the EQP's keys include making long-term help decisions. 

I fully agree with all of this. There used to be a quote from J. Reuben Clark the Church used in its welfare materials, along the lines of the whole point being rescuing what is finest in all of us and restoring dignity. The "evils of a dole" do the exact opposite. 

We agree on much more than we differ, e-eye. You're a good man!

Can we fly you in to handle our welfare for a month? We might lose a quarter of the ward but I think it would be the part we can afford to lose.

[Gapper]

No, no hard evidence on the 2 hour block, just the speculation. Personally I am fine with it staying the way it is but agree that there the time could be more spent more effectively.  

In terms of the EQP and the Bishop, I took my ideas from One Coordinate Effort Video in Ministering site LINK (watch the 2:47 video or skip to about 2:00 min and see the chart laid out there) where it explains how the EQP, the RSP and the Auxiliary leaders are responsible for missionary work, temple and family history work, the quality of teaching in the ward and the ministering effort. Per the handbook the EQP works under the direction of the Bishop as the Presiding HP of the Ward. I am just saying that the model where a Bishop presides over those areas, but lets his EQP, RSP and Auxiliary leaders carry the work of those areas is critical to allow the Bishop to handle the Young Men and Young Woman organizations, finances, temporal and building items, caring for the poor and needy and being a common judge which are all items he cannot delegate to anyone because he owns the keys to them. Several of those are very spiritual in nature, such as working with the youth, caring for the poor and needy, the common judge which the bishop solely retains the keys to handle. 

However, as a former Bishop I had a great HPGL and EQP and RSP who did do this. If and when in the course of their calling,  they found out a welfare need for a family, they went and accessed the need, found out where the family was in terms of money, bills and food, made no promises, and then reported back to me with that information and often made suggestions of what they thought could be done. Often after I interviewed, about 99% of the time I concurred with their plan and was blessed by their efforts to do the leg work and research and make a recommendation so that I could then review and meet, interview and confirm or amend the plan they had recommended.  The keys were mine to make that call, but it was nice that they did the leg work and made our response to need quicker and more timely. A current EQP and RSP working together can do similar work as they identify need or under the direction of a Bishop. To me it seems quite clear that the Savior is wanting a lesser load on his Bishops, who retain the keys and are the Presiding High Priest by a more actively involved EQP.  So say the work load of a Bishop has been 9.75 and a EQP  and Auxiliary Leaders in the past was 7.25, now we can take 1.25 off the Bishop and transfer that load to the EQP and Auxiliary Leaders so the number goes 8.5 work load for the Bishop and 8.5 for the EQP and Auxiliary Leaders. It will never be a perfect balance and a Bishop will always put in more time, but a wise Bishop uses his leaders to build capacity in their organizations and areas they are responsible for so that the "STP" or the Bishopric are not doing all the work as in the past.  The model is there, it is just if it can be followed and adapted in practice. Don't know if I am making any sense, evidently not and I don't think this is a rumor, but the information in the video I link above could be covered more in depth in this conference, or a talk on roles. We'll see. 

 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Gapper said:

In terms of the EQP and the Bishop, I took my ideas from One Coordinate Effort Video in Ministering site LINK (watch the 2:47 video or skip to about 2:00 min and see the chart laid out there) where it explains how the EQP, the RSP and the Auxiliary leaders are responsible for missionary work, temple and family history work, the quality of teaching in the ward and the ministering effort. Per the handbook the EQP works under the direction of the Bishop as the Presiding HP of the Ward. I am just saying that the model where a Bishop presides over those areas, but lets his EQP, RSP and Auxiliary leaders carry the work of those areas is critical to allow the Bishop to handle the Young Men and Young Woman organizations, finances, temporal and building items, caring for the poor and needy and being a common judge which are all items he cannot delegate to anyone because he owns the keys to them. Several of those are very spiritual in nature, such as working with the youth, caring for the poor and needy, the common judge which the bishop solely retains the keys to handle. 

The responsibilities in the video "One Coordinated Effort" are consistent with what is currently in the handbook (replacing home and visiting teaching with ministering).

https://www.lds.org/ministering/effective-ministering?lang=eng

[Avatar4321]

Been listening to Nephi and thinking about Conference and it occurred to me that there might seeing this conference that isn’t on our radar.

what if we are getting new scripture?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Nacho2dope said:

Sorry its the New Testament 2019 Come Follow Me: For Individuals and Families, its not for sale yet but Wards/Branches/Stakes will automatically receive copies December 2018 for their members. I think it has already been discussed on here.

Cool, thanks!

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The idea is to fit 4 wards into one building in order to open up funds for new temples.

That would seem to be a solution that would really only work along the Wasatch Front.  Church member density doesn't seem to be so high that 4 wards would need to meet in a building over most of the globe (or even 2 for that matter).

Edited September 28, 2018 by ksfisher

[Judd]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

That would seem to be a solution that would really only work along the Wasatch Front.  Church member density doesn't seem to be so high that 4 wards would need to meet in a building over most of the globe (or even 2 for that matter).

This is true, but with how much building could be saved in the Wasatch Front alone, it would enable more chapels and temples to be built where previously they may have not qualified, and where there are much greater distances.

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

That would seem to be a solution that would really only work along the Wasatch Front.  Church member density doesn't seem to be so high that 4 wards would need to meet in a building over most of the globe (or even 2 for that matter).

 

2 hours ago, Judd said:

This is true, but with how much building could be saved in the Wasatch Front alone, it would enable more chapels and temples to be built where previously they may have not qualified, and where there are much greater distances.

I live in Colorado and if I draw a one mile radius around my church building it touches four wards.  A two mile radius from my building touches 6 wards.  There is high density membership outside of the Wasatch Front.

[rockpond]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

This just in - take it for what it’s worth.  This is coming from the gossip queen (my wife’s grandma), who heard it from a church architect.   She says that the 2 hour block is a for sure thing this conference.  The idea is to fit 4 wards into one building in order to open up funds for new temples.  She said that RS/EQ will rotate every other week with Sunday school.

This is the second person who has confirmed this to me.  The other person is my wife’s aunt who claims that her friends ward has been piloting the program in Pleasant Grove, UT.  

We’ll see.

My wife's friend's mother (seriously) is also in a ward that is piloting the two hour block with alternating SS and RS/EQ.  

But, a pilot test can also make them decide NOT to do it. 

[Judd]

27 minutes ago, rockpond said:

 

I live in Colorado and if I draw a one mile radius around my church building it touches four wards.  A two mile radius from my building touches 6 wards.  There is high density membership outside of the Wasatch Front.

There are many places in Utah, Idaho, Arizona, California, Washington, Nevada, and a number of other places such as places in Colorado, Texas, DC area, etc., that it would free up a lot of money to be used elsewhere, while not compromising any of those locations from being close to a building.

[MiserereNobis]

Would it take a revelation from God to change to the two hour block? Or could that just be an administrative decision? 

[rockpond]

25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Would it take a revelation from God to change to the two hour block? Or could that just be an administrative decision? 

I’m not sure there is a difference these days.  We’ve been told that a unanimous decision by the Brethren is “the will of God”.  

[strappinglad]

Where I am, a 1 mile radius will touch 10 wards. We already have one building with 4 wards in it. We are building a new building now ( our oldest was built in 1939) so IF the 2 hour block happens , we should be good for several decades. We are a bee hive of activity ( deseret allusion  )

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/24/2018 at 12:05 PM, clarkgoble said:

The idea that every policy or plan the President implements is dictated in detail by God seems a deeply problematic position. One can respect their authority without assuming everything is revealed completely.

Then there’s this...

Quote

She explained, “He keeps a lined yellow pad of paper beside his bed.” Then she declared, “In the morning he holds up a half page to one and a half pages of notes with joy.”

Although she said that sometimes she remains close to him when this process is happening, sometimes she does not. She recounted a night in January when “I got the prompting, ‘move out of bed now.’”

“Two hours later he emerged from the room. ‘Wendy, you won’t believe what’s been happening. The Lord has given me detailed instruction on what I am to do.’”

https://www.mormonlight.org/2018/08/21/when-sister-nelson-received-the-prompting-to-move-out-of-bed-now/

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Would it take a revelation from God to change to the two hour block? Or could that just be an administrative decision? 

I would say a decision made after study and prayer for confirmation.