Speculations for General Conference

[ksfisher]

Just now, Calm said:

 

Then there is the problem when both parents have Sunday callings.

Been there.

Although service in Church callings requires sacrifice, it should not compromise a member’s ability to fulfill family and employment responsibilities (see 17.2.1). Before calling a married person to an assignment that requires a significant time commitment, Church leaders consider the effect of the calling on the marriage and family.

Handbook 2, 19.1.1

[rongo]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's rough on the mom or dad, especially if they live far from the church (which means they have to take two cars to church or the parent has to go back and pick everyone else up) 

We've been a one-car family most of our life, and when I was bishop of one ward, we lived a half-hour south of the city on unincorporated county land. Our ward covered like 200 square miles, and my wife had to drop me off at the Church and come get me many times. We also had to bring two very young children to ward council with us at one time (I was EQP, and she was primary president). 

We actually have very fond memories of this time in our lives. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

We've been a one-car family most of our life, and when I was bishop of one ward, we lived a half-hour south of the city on unincorporated county land. Our ward covered like 200 square miles, and my wife had to drop me off at the Church and come get me many times. We also had to bring two very young children to ward council with us at one time (I was EQP, and she was primary president). 

We actually have very fond memories of this time in our lives. 

I never have fond memories of having to take toddlers to meetings.  

[e-eye]

23 hours ago, rongo said:

The above is what I don't like. A conscious building of layers and barriers, like the touch tone phone menu trees we hate navigating --- their sole purpose is to throw up layers and barriers to weed out people before they have to be transferred to a live person. 

Good bishops can, and should, be the first contact for people in need, I think. It's hard enough to go to the bishop, without the bishop having them call the EQP or RP first before he will talk to them. 

You may not like it but I am also thinking you don't understand this situation or how bishops work.  A bishop has wife, kids, job and life.  I have seen some bishops do there calling so much they destroy their marriage and family.  You look at the system as barriers I look at it as assistance.  Handing out cash doesn't fix long term problems, budgeting and helping out does.

There are a lot of people out there who abuse the church welfare system - some knowingly and some unknowingly.  The welfare system is a short term program to get you back on your feet.    The problem with most welfare situation is that people need way more help than the bishop has time or skills to offer.  That is why systems are put in place.   For my friend who is bishop he was spending over 12 + hours a week just meeting with people who had welfare problems (It was a poor area).  The bishop before him was so nice he just said yes to everyone so my friend was left with a job to work with these people to stop becoming reliant on the church.  

The first person someone should call when they are in need is not the bishop.  They should call family first, and then if that falters they should reach out to the bishop.  Like I mentioned the bishop would meet with them for emergencies but if they needed longer term assistance they needed to work with the Elders Quorum president "who has keys to help" or assigned person who could do this under delegation of the bishop.  

The whole idea of the self reliance program is to become self reliant so that instead of asking for help we can be able to help others.  People will always have bad times regardless of what they do and for those difficult times the church can help out "as much as possible" but we are expected to do everything we can.  I believe my friend was inspired to put in a system where he actually helped people.  The way I see it is if people won't jump through a couple hoops for welfare there is a good chance they didn't need it as bad as they thought.  Oh and trust me I have been there needing assistance before - I hated it - it's a humbling situation.   

[ksfisher]

Just now, e-eye said:

You may not like it but I am also thinking you don't understand this situation or how bishops work.  A bishop has wife, kids, job and life.

Rongo has served as a bishop.  Twice if I recall.

[e-eye]

19 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Been there.

Although service in Church callings requires sacrifice, it should not compromise a member’s ability to fulfill family and employment responsibilities (see 17.2.1). Before calling a married person to an assignment that requires a significant time commitment, Church leaders consider the effect of the calling on the marriage and family.

Handbook 2, 19.1.1

This can be harder in smaller wards.  Just not enough people to go around sometimes. 

I was in the bishopric and the bishop came to me and said.  Oh, I am calling your wife as the relief society president and releasing you.  I was like... Oh okay.   Happened a couple months later and we both did the callings for about 6 weeks - I loved being in ward council together with her.   After having Sunday callings for 10 or so years I am now the young men's secretary - I get the kids ready for church when she goes to meetings (luckily they are a little older now) and it's been a good switch for us.  Lucky for us we have a large ward with plenty of people to take care of callings.  

[Rain]

38 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's assuming close proximity to the church. In areas like mine where distances are vast, it's very expensive to take multiple vehicles to church so that one can leave early.

Good point.  In Grenada 1 side of the island meets in a home or building most weeks. Then once every month or two the group will pull together and go to the other side to attend the official branch.  The "buses" just don't run on Sunday, most people don't have cars and taxis are expensive for their income. 

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, e-eye said:

This can be harder in smaller wards.  Just not enough people to go around sometimes.

Yup.  It can be really limiting at times, but the families need to come first.

[rongo]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I never have fond memories of having to take toddlers to meetings.  

Not quite meetings, but this from Orson Scott Card's "Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary" is pretty funny:

Chapel To children, the worst place in the world from which they endeavor to escape at any cost. To teenagers, a place where they can talk endlessly without anyone yelling for them to get off the phone. To fathers, a place of refuge from the world where they may sleep. To mothers, the exact equivalent of a nightmare amusement park, where they must tend the children without rides, refreshments, or relief.

---

We were lucky. Our children were very good, and could sit at a very young age for long periods quietly occupied with books, toys, etc. We fenced them in on the floor with the diaper bag, etc., and it wasn't bad at all. I realize that other people's kids could be more of a handful, and mileage varies. 

Sacrament meeting wasn't always a cakewalk, of course, and my wife rode solo with them for most of our four kids' growing up. We were really, really fortunate --- our kids were really easy. 

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Not quite meetings, but this from Orson Scott Card's "Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary" is pretty funny:

Chapel To children, the worst place in the world from which they endeavor to escape at any cost. To teenagers, a place where they can talk endlessly without anyone yelling for them to get off the phone. To fathers, a place of refuge from the world where they may sleep. To mothers, the exact equivalent of a nightmare amusement park, where they must tend the children without rides, refreshments, or relief.

---

We were lucky. Our children were very good, and could sit at a very young age for long periods quietly occupied with books, toys, etc. We fenced them in on the floor with the diaper bag, etc., and it wasn't bad at all. I realize that other people's kids could be more of a handful, and mileage varies. 

Sacrament meeting wasn't always a cakewalk, of course, and my wife rode solo with them for most of our four kids' growing up. We were really, really fortunate --- our kids were really easy. 

My kids are 8 to 16 right now and they are reverent... very reverent... so reverent that our challenge is keeping them awake during 1:00 sacrament meeting.    

[ksfisher]

Just now, rongo said:

We fenced them in on the floor with the diaper bag, etc., and it wasn't bad at all.

We always sat on a bench against a wall and my role was to act as gatekeeper at the other end. 

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

Sacrament meeting wasn't always a cakewalk, of course, and my wife rode solo with them for most of our four kids' growing up. We were really, really fortunate --- our kids were really easy

I've observed in a couple different wards that there are always ward members willing to help mothers with children when the husband isn't able to sit with the family.

[Rain]

53 minutes ago, Judd said:

I’ll qualify my statement by saying I only listened to 15 minutes, but they had moved past that subject into something else. They mentioned nothing new, just that it had been circulating in their wards, in conjunction with the new curriculum not saying anything about RS and EQ, and also that apparently every family will get a personal copy of Come Follow Me, or something, come January. That was pretty much it.

I hope that doesn't mean they will print a paper copy. I am trying to avoid paper as much as I can and still it piles up. Love my gospelling library and lds tools apps for those reasons.

[rockpond]

The conversation on this big 2-hour block speculation/gossip keeps circling around to how 3-hour church is difficult.

I want to just want to put it out there (again) that a two hour block has the ability to solve a very real building shortage problem in my area.

I don't look at this as we've become too lazy or our attention spans are too short so we need 2-hour church.  It does, however, push more of the gospel instruction responsibility back on the parents/family.  That  makes me a little nervous because even though I am committed to teaching the gospel to my children, I also know how easy it can get brushed aside when other, more urgent, concerns arise (as they often do).

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

I hope that doesn't mean they will print a paper copy. I am trying to avoid paper as much as I can and still it piles up. Love my gospelling library and lds tools apps for those reasons.

I don't think they would... that's a colossal expense.  Maybe in other countries.  Here in the United States (and other countries where technology/internet is relatively inexpensive and ubiquitous) they must realize that many prefer digital versions.

[ksfisher]

Just now, rockpond said:

I don't look at this as we've become too lazy or our attention spans are too short so we need 2-hour church.

I think there are more an more members who want to spend as little time in church as possible and then do nothing church related until the next Sunday morning.

Just now, rockpond said:

It does, however, push more of the gospel instruction responsibility back on the parents/family

As it should be.

 

Just now, rockpond said:

That  makes me a little nervous because even though I am committed to teaching the gospel to my children, I also know how easy it can get brushed aside when other, more urgent, concerns arise (as they often do).

Growing up, the only gospel instruction I received was at church.  Even though we went to church every Sunday we didn't have any gospel instruction at home.  I think there are many children and youth like this in the church, and less time at church won't be of any benefit them.  In fact just the opposite.

[rongo]

47 minutes ago, e-eye said:

You may not like it but I am also thinking you don't understand this situation or how bishops work.  A bishop has wife, kids, job and life.  I have seen some bishops do their calling so much they destroy their marriage and family.  You look at the system as barriers I look at it as assistance. 

I agree that leaders need to be sensitive to individual circumstances and needs. When I was called the first time, we had one week to call everyone in the ward and have it up and running the next week (brand new ward). During that week, I thought that we had been unfair in criticizing paid clergy ---- it would have been nice to be able to work full time on that during the week instead of after hours.  

Quote

Handing out cash doesn't fix long term problems, budgeting and helping out does.

Amen, and amen. I just never had a problem being the one to do that with people (sometimes assisted by the RS president or HPGL, but usually me). 

Quote

There are a lot of people out there who abuse the church welfare system - some knowingly and some unknowingly.  The welfare system is a short term program to get you back on your feet. 

Amen, Amen, and AMEN. Most who abuse it do so knowingly; others because they have been conditioned to because leaders have just paid for everything. 

Quote

The problem with most welfare situation is that people need way more help than the bishop has time or skills to offer.  That is why systems are put in place.   For my friend who is bishop he was spending over 12 + hours a week just meeting with people who had welfare problems (It was a poor area).  The bishop before him was so nice he just said yes to everyone so my friend was left with a job to work with these people to stop becoming reliant on the church. 

I was a very good bishop at teaching and enforcing welfare principles. This meant that the chronicly needy people needed to move after a couple of months because assistance is temporary and has to lead to progress (i.e., it has to put them in a position to be able to be self-reliant. If it actually won't help them, and they're just going to continually need assistance, then they are going to have to make drastic changes. These come out in the wash in the Needs and Resource Analysis). When I was called a second time, I inherited a more than $30,000 fast offering deficit. The Sunday I was set apart, I had seven "regular customer" families waiting to meet with me after church. Cutting them off (which is what ultimately needed to be done --- they weren't serious about being self-reliant) was painful, not fun, and time-consuming. There were a lot of bad feelings and even some death threats. All moved out of the area. But it wouldn't have been fair, appropriate, or best for me to have punted them to ward auxiliary leaders, especially that very first Sunday. That's why the bishop makes the big bucks.  

I find that frontloading the "not fun" teaching and enforcing of welfare principles pays dividends long-term. 

Quote

The first person someone should call when they are in need is not the bishop.  They should call family first, and then if that falters they should reach out to the bishop. 

I agree, but most people won't turn to family until the bishop makes them. I find that every time people have insisted that they have exhausted their family resources, when the church doesn't offer assistance, family is magically able to help (if not always happily or willingly).

Quote

Like I mentioned the bishop would meet with them for emergencies

Thing is, that it is almost by design that it is an emergency when people need help. They need to meet with you NOW! because the electric or water is being disconnected today, or the house is being foreclosed on tomorrow, or the car is being repo'd at any time if they aren't paid NOW! I can't tell you how many times people frantically schedule to meet with you on the day of the disconnect at 5:00, and you say, "Why did you let this get to this point?" It is usually, consciously or subconsciously, because it is leverage to have it be that imminent. It's a form of forcing your hand. Which means, even when meeting with an auxiliary president, they're going to have to meet with the bishop, anyway. And, it should be the bishop who is the ultimate "bad cop" if they need to be told that no help is going to be given. I think leaving that to auxiliary presidents is cowardly.

Quote

but if they needed longer term assistance they needed to work with the Elders Quorum president "who has keys to help" or assigned person who could do this under delegation of the bishop. 

Bishops can certainly delegate, and more and more are delegating more and more. I don't believe that the EQP's keys include making long-term help decisions. 

Quote

The whole idea of the self reliance program is to become self reliant so that instead of asking for help we can be able to help others.  People will always have bad times regardless of what they do and for those difficult times the church can help out "as much as possible" but we are expected to do everything we can.  I believe my friend was inspired to put in a system where he actually helped people.  The way I see it is if people won't jump through a couple hoops for welfare there is a good chance they didn't need it as bad as they thought.  Oh and trust me I have been there needing assistance before - I hated it - it's a humbling situation.   

I fully agree with all of this. There used to be a quote from J. Reuben Clark the Church used in its welfare materials, along the lines of the whole point being rescuing what is finest in all of us and restoring dignity. The "evils of a dole" do the exact opposite. 

We agree on much more than we differ, e-eye. You're a good man!

Edited September 28, 2018 by rongo

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

Thing is, that it is almost by design that it is an emergency when people need help. They need to meet with you NOW! because the electric or water is being disconnected today, or the house is being foreclosed on tomorrow, or the car is being repo'd at any time if they aren't paid NOW!

Our current bishop will only meet with people for welfare needs on Thursday night.  I think I can only remember him making one exception to that in the year he has served.

[Nacho2dope]

https://store.lds.org/lds/ProductDisplay?top_category5=&top_category4=&top_category3=&urlRequestType=Ajax&productId=3074457345616725618&catalogId=3074457345616676768&top_category2=&categoryId=3074457345616678785&errorViewName=ProductDisplayErrorView&urlLangId=-1&langId=-1&top_category=3074457345616678768&parent_category_rn=3074457345616678776&storeId=10151

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The conversation on this big 2-hour block speculation/gossip keeps circling around to how 3-hour church is difficult.

I want to just want to put it out there (again) that a two hour block has the ability to solve a very real building shortage problem in my area.

I don't look at this as we've become too lazy or our attention spans are too short so we need 2-hour church.  It does, however, push more of the gospel instruction responsibility back on the parents/family.  That  makes me a little nervous because even though I am committed to teaching the gospel to my children, I also know how easy it can get brushed aside when other, more urgent, concerns arise (as they often do).

I know for me, I'm not interested in a 2 hour block because I want to spend less time on church stuff on Sundays.  I'm interested in a church block that works smarter, not harder.  One that is set up so that it's easier to get more spiritual nourishment out of 2 hours of church than it is right now to get it out of 3 hours.  I don't see our current 3 hour block as being that efficient at gospel teaching/learning/worshipping.  

But, if nothing changes, that's o.k. too.  Church is never going to work perfectly for everyone all the time.  We are all different and have different needs.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

https://store.lds.org/lds/ProductDisplay?top_category5=&top_category4=&top_category3=&urlRequestType=Ajax&productId=3074457345616725618&catalogId=3074457345616676768&top_category2=&categoryId=3074457345616678785&errorViewName=ProductDisplayErrorView&urlLangId=-1&langId=-1&top_category=3074457345616678768&parent_category_rn=3074457345616678776&storeId=10151

What was this supposed to link to?

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Our current bishop will only meet with people for welfare needs on Thursday night.  I think I can only remember him making one exception to that in the year he has served.

Well, I'd like to be able to make a case-by-case determination. If power is going to be shut off, and it's a heat wave and it's forecast to be 120 for a high and 95 for a low (that's the worst about summer in Arizona --- it just doesn't cool off), I would be inclined to keep the power on but install firm and stern strictures on what is going to take place over that next month to ensure they are more self-reliant. I think having a hard and fast rule ignores valid exceptions. 

Your bishop's policy *does* prioritize family/personal time, and is good training and teaching for the ward, outside of bona fide emergencies. 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said:

https://store.lds.org/lds/ProductDisplay?top_category5=&top_category4=&top_category3=&urlRequestType=Ajax&productId=3074457345616725618&catalogId=3074457345616676768&top_category2=&categoryId=3074457345616678785&errorViewName=ProductDisplayErrorView&urlLangId=-1&langId=-1&top_category=3074457345616678768&parent_category_rn=3074457345616678776&storeId=10151

Store links don't work.  They start fresh each time in my experience.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Calm

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, rongo said:

Well, I'd like to be able to make a case-by-case determination. If power is going to be shut off, and it's a heat wave and it's forecast to be 120 for a high and 95 for a low (that's the worst about summer in Arizona --- it just doesn't cool off), I would be inclined to keep the power on but install firm and stern strictures on what is going to take place over that next month to ensure they are more self-reliant. I think having a hard and fast rule ignores valid exceptions. 

Your bishop's policy *does* prioritize family/personal time, and is good training and teaching for the ward, outside of bona fide emergencies. 

My observation has been that after the bishop has said no to an emergency meeting that people have been able to find other resources.  With the previous bishop it seemed like there was an emergency every week.

Guidance by the Spirit in paramount in dealing with any welfare situation and I have great faith in and respect for bishops as the follow the Spirit.

[Nacho2dope]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What was this supposed to link to?

Sorry its the New Testament 2019 Come Follow Me: For Individuals and Families, its not for sale yet but Wards/Branches/Stakes will automatically receive copies December 2018 for their members. I think it has already been discussed on here.

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

My observation has been that after the bishop has said no to an emergency meeting that people have been able to find other resources.  With the previous bishop it seemed like there was an emergency every week.

Guidance by the Spirit in paramount in dealing with any welfare situation and I have great faith in and respect for bishops as the follow the Spirit.

This is very true. Cooling off periods almost always result in people figuring things out. I mean, what would people do if there were no Church? They would do something, right? Too often, members see the Church (fast offering funds) as a backstop or a safety net. People outside of the Church don't have that, and have to figure things out. 

The worst thing is when the electric company starts referring people facing shutoff to the local bishops because they have seen so many Zion's Bank checks from the Church used to pay bills.  We went through a period where the seven local bishops were flooded by people whom the electric company referred. Tons and tons of non-members.