Speculations for General Conference

[rockpond]

14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I apologize if this was already discussed but I read the last few pages of this thread and not everything. 

I talked to my sister today and she has a friend who was told to not to submit her sons mission papers until after conference. Interesting....

I know it's hearsay but that is still interesting.

We've talked about types of mission (service, proselyting) and mission age changes but I don't think we've every discussed the possibility of a change to the length of a mission.  Could they be considering returning to 18 month missions for all?

[rockpond]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

Besides, the 3 hour block is only 1.8% of our week. While I recognize there is time spent in the temple and doing our callings and scriptures, 1.8% is not a lot of time to renew the covenants and help each other to face the rest of the week and encourage each other to grow and serve others. That isn't too say we can't be more effective - I just don't think it takes enough time to mean we can't do service as well at another time.

I agree... it's important to remember that for many, some of that 3-hour block is service (granted it is usually confined to serving members of our own ward/stake) but that's still service.

And, we can also use part of our Sunday in community service.  JustServe.org is worth taking a look at and if someone can't find anything on there, they might have JustServe missionaries called in their area (we do) and they're a great resource.

[ksfisher]

39 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I apologize if this was already discussed but I read the last few pages of this thread and not everything. 

I talked to my sister today and she has a friend who was told to not to submit her sons mission papers until after conference. Interesting....

We had a sister in our ward put in her papers last month and received her call a last week. 

[rongo]

On 9/11/2018 at 10:42 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

As I stated above, overwhelmingly our best missionaries over the past few years have been those who came to us at age 18 (or 19 for Sisters). I know it's somewhat fashionable on this board to engage in hand-wringing over the age change. I personally love it!

I think your experience has two reasons: 1) the relative quality of missionaries sent to to your part of Oceania, and 2) the missionary program in your neck of the woods. I can guarantee that your area isn't having them spend their downtime hanging out at the church, or mandating the equivalent of days every week in meetings or online missionary work. It makes a big difference. I think a lot of the younger missionaries I haven't been impressed with have unfairly been given orders that set them up to be unimpressive, and they would have been different under different circumstances. I think your circumstances (and many foreign countries, for that matter) are inherently better for bringing out the best in them in a way that many stateside missions are not. Mileage varies according to mission presidents, too, but the coddling and "it's not missionary work, it's missionary fun!" approach in many stateside areas does them a disservice, in my experience. 

[rongo]

47 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I apologize if this was already discussed but I read the last few pages of this thread and not everything. 

I talked to my sister today and she has a friend who was told to not to submit her sons mission papers until after conference. Interesting....

Told by whom? A bishop or stake president? Higher than that? 

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

but the coddling and "it's not missionary work, it's missionary fun!" approach in many stateside areas does them a disservice, in my experience.

I have a son preparing for a mission and one of the things I've tried to stress with him is that missionary work is work.  It's not easy.  Hopefully when he enters the field he'll be prepared for, and not surprised by, how difficult a mission can be sometimes.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think your experience has two reasons: 1) the relative quality of missionaries sent to to your part of Oceania, and 2) the missionary program in your neck of the woods. I can guarantee that your area isn't having them spend their downtime hanging out at the church, or mandating the equivalent of days every week in meetings or online missionary work. It makes a big difference. I think a lot of the younger missionaries I haven't been impressed with have unfairly been given orders that set them up to be unimpressive, and they would have been different under different circumstances. I think your circumstances (and many foreign countries, for that matter) are inherently better for bringing out the best in them in a way that many stateside missions are not. Mileage varies according to mission presidents, too, but the coddling and "it's not missionary work, it's missionary fun!" approach in many stateside areas does them a disservice, in my experience. 

I agree with this... it breaks my heart when we sit in ward council meeting and talk about 1) sending our missionaries back to the house of the family we've been trying to reactivate for 6 years and 2) decide that we need our active member families to sign up to hear discussion every night of the week so that the elders have teaching opportunities.  I wish we could be giving them a better experience than that!

[e-eye]

3 hours ago, changed said:

 

I'm pretty inactive at this point in time  - do not hold a temple recommend because I no longer trust the priesthood (abuse issues).  My baptism covenants involved something about service - I find more service opportunities outside the walls of the church...  dressing up, putting on makeup - pretending to be good and holy for 3 hours... I do not like it.  It does not feel genuine or real.  

That's hard.  Probably not something I can understand.   Church is what you make it and unfortunately what others make of it for you.  You don't have to hold a temple recommend to keep the covenants you made.  I know it's not as simple as just going to church but, spending an hour or so to at least renew your covenants is a wonderful thing.  Imagine if you could be baptized again and again and again - that's what the sacrament does although it's not a start over it's an increase in spiritual power.   

I do think it's awesome you are serving on Sunday - I still think it's better for you to renew your covenants and serve - it's a win win.  Service is good - that's what the Savior did, but he also took the time to fast, pray, teach and even learn.  Yes, members put on a happy face at church but there are also many who truly are happy at church and share that with others.   Though I am selfish in my desires for the sacrament the rest of the time is either to learn or to teach others so we can all go out and be better people.  Sure I could learn a lot on my own but there is something special about gathering as saints/sinners and trying to be better. 

[e-eye]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

Besides, the 3 hour block is only 1.8% of our week. While I recognize there is time spent in the temple and doing our callings and scriptures, 1.8% is not a lot of time to renew the covenants and help each other to face the rest of the week and encourage each other to grow and serve others. That isn't too say we can't be more effective - I just don't think it takes enough time to mean we can't do service as well at another time.

Agreed - In the self reliance classes we learn that there is no separation of temporal and spiritual.  We should be a light to others at all times, work, play etc.  

[rongo]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I have a son preparing for a mission and one of the things I've tried to stress with him is that missionary work is work.  It's not easy.  Hopefully when he enters the field he'll be prepared for, and not surprised by, how difficult a mission can be sometimes.

It is work, and the work is so rewarding. But the top-down "shield them from any negative experiences and ensure that they only have positive ones" approach (told our stake by a GA) has the opposite effect from what is intended. I think we have a lot of bored, listless missionaries who are not collecting their mission adventure stories (and most of my adventures came about from day-to-day work, not necessarily romantic, adventurous situations). When they're told to be at the church when they don't have appointments (not to door knock in down time) and to teach active families if they don't have appointments, or to do indexing (Duncan's home mission), I can empathize with depression, anxiety, and dissatisfaction coming from that. 

My son is having a great experience his freshman year in an honors dorm at a university. It has been so good for him to juggle 15 credit hours of honors classes, work 30 hours a week, deal with roommate/personality problems, actively participate in the YSA ward, etc. He was stressed because on paper it doesn't look possible, but we promised him that he will gain his own testimony through experience that God can work miracles with time and space, and you can have more than 24 hours in a day such that it will boggle your mind. And he's experiencing that.

It's especially valuable working through roommate issues. He and his roommate get along and are friends, but he was very concerned last week in his letter because he has been vaping (illegal) in the room and had a girl over for the night (they were doing homework but she was still there when my son woke up in the morning). He had addressed the vaping before, and his reaction was kind of "run interference for me so that I don't get caught." He was almost sick with worry, and we counseled him that a) we were praying for him, b) have a heart to heart with him, firm but "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" and c) leave the roommate a lifeline and make sure he can save face (make sure he knows that your friendship is "stronger than the bands of death," even though you are having to talk about hard things; D&C 121). It actually went great, and his roommate committed to behave better. He let him know, in a friendly and diplomatic but firm way that a) girls aren't going to be there overnight again, and b) he would go up the chain of command over house rules if needed, but it would be best if they could settle it themselves first. This experience, looking ahead to mission companionship dynamics, is 1000 x valuable pre-mission, since he's never had to deal with things like that before. Later, as a boss or church leader, he will also have to have hard conversations with people and be firm but diplomatic. 

My parents, now in the MTC en route to the Czech Republic and having served in Poland in the mission office, are adamant that the best missionaries they had were those with college and significant work experience, and the one's who struggled the most were the 18 year-olds straight out of high school. Our son would have done great straight out of high school, but we're really glad he has this experience first. 

Another thing is that it seems to us like our son is the only one who will actually pay for his mission any more. The straight out of high school kids have their mission paid for by someone else (obviously, there are exceptions, but I don't think there are very many).

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I can guarantee that your area isn't having them spend their downtime hanging out at the church

Our missionaries don't have 'downtime'. We overwhelm them with things to do.

Quote

... or online missionary work ...

Our missionaries got smartphones back in June. What a fantastic resource! They were told by the person from the Missionary Department who trained them that he didn't know everything they could or even should be doing with them, but they should be creative and use them to do all kinds of good and then report back on it. I've watched them do this. As a start, it's been fantastic to have them belong to the ward and elders quorum Facebook pages. They're able to interact with new members, struggling members, and investigators in low-key but high-frequency ways. They post inspiring things that all of the above really respond to. We local members are able to be involved too. It's really unified our efforts.

Quote

I think your circumstances (and many foreign countries, for that matter) ...

Just by the way, I don't live in a 'foreign country'. You do ...

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, rockpond said:

I wish we could be giving them a better experience than that!

So why aren't you giving them a better experience? Deadly serious question.

We get our fulltime missionaries involved in pretty much all our ministering efforts. That alone is almost enough to overwhelm them. Then our members also have the Elders in their homes in the evenings, but when they do so, they always have a) a non-member friend, b) a recent convert, c) a less-active person, d) a part-member family, or c) a prospective elder present.

I and one of my housemates have both had friends be baptised this year because we did simple things like that. In my case, it was the sister of one of my best mates. He's a Muslim, and she used to be as well, but she told him she wanted to explore Christianity. So he recommended 'Hamba’s church' because he's been before and really enjoyed it; he also really likes our missionaries, whom I've made sure he's met. She came with me for a few months before letting me know she was ready for the lessons. The change in her has been visible. She's radiant now!

In my housemate's case, it was one of his former clients. He actually invited two of them, brothers, to come for dinner and a message the first time, but only one of the brothers was interested enough to come back. Again, the change has been visible. He says he's never felt this at-peace before in his entire life.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

We promised him that he will gain his own testimony through experience that God can work miracles with time and space, and you can have more than 24 hours in a day such that it will boggle your mind. And he's experiencing that.

I think that is one of the blessings that I have most experienced from trying to put God first in my life. I have literally said on numerous occasions that He can bend both time and space! (And resources too, on many occasions! I'm certain that my budget wouldn't reconcile on paper.)

[rockpond]

On 9/12/2018 at 6:02 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I can confirm the temple policy, which has been in place for a very long time. When I was living in America, I attended a temple that was open for a half day on Mondays. I was just at the recommend desk on my way to the last session of the day when a man half-walked through the front door and asked if the temple really was open. This brother had arrived from interstate for a business meeting and had seen the cars in the temple car park. The worker said yes and invited the visitor in. He said he would run to his hotel and change first. The worker told him he didn't have time, that the last session was due to begin in 15 minutes. The poor brother -- dressed in jeans, cowboy boots, and a casual shirt -- was reluctant to do so, so the worker asked, 'What do you think matters most to the Lord today, how you're dressed or whether you're in His house?' The brother came in and did the session with me.

As far as 'dress codes' go, everyone else is right. There is real value in dressing up, but the Church certainly doesn't require specific colours or styles. In my ward, we have men wearing all colours of shirts, and a number of them wear skirts. At the same time, a number of our sisters wear nice pants, including the wife of our patriarch and our organist. One of the counsellors in our bishopric often does the all-black thing. I don't love it, but he's a cop, and it seems to suit him.

Thanks for sharing this!

[rockpond]

59 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Our missionaries got smartphones back in June. What a fantastic resource!

The smartphone rollout here in Colorado, USA was also in June.

[rockpond]

55 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So why aren't you giving them a better experience? Deadly serious question.

Yeah, I knew I was opening myself up to that question when I responded to that post.

We do much of what you've described but we don't have many less active members (we average around 80% activity here) and many of the less actives are not willing to have any church contact.  Very few recent converts (I don't remember the last convert baptism we had).  So, it ends up being active members having the missionaries teach them the lessons... which I don't feel is a great mission experience for these kids.  But maybe they feel differently.

We have them to our house regularly for dinner or lessons.  But before I get asked the next obvious question of why I don't invite non-member friends over, I'll just remind you that I am not in a good enough spot with the church right now to be recommending other people join.  It takes everything we've got to keep attending and serving ourselves.  It's tough to invite someone to church when we regularly return home from church with one of our kids in tears (from feeling alone and ostracized by the other kids).

I do what I am comfortable with in terms of missionary work and right now that means teaching a weekly Sunday devotional at a senior living home.  It's a non-denominational Christian "congregation" but I'm still teaching the Restored Gospel since that's all I know.  I figure I'm paving the way for their acceptance of proxy baptisms on the other side. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by rockpond

[Hamba Tuhan]

32 minutes ago, rockpond said:

But before I get asked the next obvious question of why I don't invite non-member friends over, I'll just remind you that I am not in a good enough spot with the church right now to be recommending other people join.

Many thanks for the honest and rather vulnerable response!

And thanks for all that you currently do.

Speaking generally (i.e., trying to avoid any comment on your personal circumstances), I hope you can see why I'd prefer members to be in good enough spots that they can indeed be recommending the Restored Gospel to other people.

Our stake hosted a YSA convention a couple of summers ago, and they asked me to do a workshop on missionary work. I had three simple recommendations:

1. Live up to your privileges so that you actually have something to share. (On this point, I asked participants to remember the last clear revelation, answer to prayer, insight from the Book of Mormon, life-changing temple experience, etc. that they'd experienced.)
2. Do good things. (We talked about things like camping, bushwalks, FHEs, simple dinners at home, etc.)
3. Invite other people (and not just non-members) to do them with you. (And then, as inspired, share something good from number 1, realising that this may not happen at first.)

As I've pointed out to our missionaries many times, they are not the sole (or necessarily even the main) factor in missionary work. If members can and will do the above, the work just happens. If they can't or won't, the world's best missionaries will struggle in an area.

Quote

I figure I'm paving the way for their acceptance of proxy baptisms on the other side.  

When I was a fulltime missionary, we referred to these as 'Spirit World referrals'! I think there's something to it, for certain. It's all just a single continuum really.

At the same time, we've had a fair few older converts the last few years (in their 60s, 70s and even 80s). One of them came to church the first Sunday on the urging of a close friend. He introduced himself to everyone by name and then added, in each case, 'and I'm never going to join your church'.

But he did. This past Sunday, I got to drive one of the priests (and my ministering companion, whom I adore) to his house to provide him with the sacrament. He just had open-heart surgery for a valve replacement, and he's home but barely able to move. He wouldn't let us go until he'd shared with us his experiences of receiving very clear and immediate answers to prayers in the first few days after the surgery, when the pain was so intense that it was causing him to hallucinate. It was one of those personal witnesses that simply can't be ignored. I'm so glad that we get to share what we have with others so that they too can enjoy the wonder and power of it all!

Edited September 14, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[rockpond]

29 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Speaking generally (i.e., trying to avoid any comment on your personal circumstances), I hope you can see why I'd prefer members to be in good enough spots that they can indeed be recommending the Restored Gospel to other people.

I'd prefer that as well and am doing all I can.  But right now there is a gap that seems un-bridgeable. (Is that a word?)

25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Our stake hosted a YSA convention a couple of summers ago, and they asked me to do a workshop on missionary work. I had three simple recommendations:

1. Live up to your privileges so that you actually have something to share. (On this point, I asked participants to remember the last clear revelation, answer to prayer, insight from the Book of Mormon, life-changing temple experience, etc. that they'd experienced.)
2. Do good things. (We talked about things like camping, bushwalks, FHEs, simple dinners at home, etc.)
3. Invite other people (and not just non-members) to do them with you. (And then, as inspired, share something good from number 1, realising that this may not happen at first.)

These are great suggestions!

25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

At the same time, we've had a fair few older converts the last few years (in their 60s, 70s and even 80s). One of them came to church the first Sunday on the urging of a close friend. He introduced himself to everyone by name and then added, in each case, 'and I'm never going to join your church'.

But he did. 

For those among my little Senior Living congregation who are able to leave the facility (most don't drive but there is a shuttle that will take them places), I have invited them to certain church events:  Christmas, Easter, etc.  But those who attend our Sunday devotional mostly do so because they aren't able to get to church elsewhere.

[changed]

15 hours ago, ksfisher said:

 

Other churches hold non-denominational scripture study classes open to all... while LDS holds things like seminary that only teach Mormon doctrine which is not as inviting to a wider audience.

Out of all of your critiques of the church in your post this one stood out to me the most.  Are you saying that the church should change it's doctrine, it's core beliefs, in order to be more popular?

(And I'm not sure what you mean by "things like seminary."  The church does actually hold seminary.)

Seminary, relief society, gospel doctrine - it is all dictated with no room for personal exploration and expression.  You cannot question, or disagree with, anything the "prophet" has said... this is soooo wrong.  

We all have free agency.  We all hold slightly different beliefs, have had different experiences which have formed those beliefs.  We all must gain our own personal testimony without relying on the light of others.  Other organizations recognize this, do not try to dictate beliefs, allow everyone personal inquiry and expression.  Other churches allow everyone to find their own light, celebrate individual light, rather than dictating everyone's beliefs.    

Do not trust the arm of flesh = do not trust anyone (even if they are a prophet).  Judas was a prophet, what are we to learn from that?  Doubting Thomas was a prophet.  

• 16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? 
• And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
• Peter then denied again: and immediately the **** crew.
• And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
• Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

We are supposed to trust and follow....  apostles???  I think the scriptures teach very clearly we cannot fully trust or rely on prophets and apostles - they are a rather incompetent bunch.  

It comes down to personal testimonies, not trusting in and following in the arms of flesh.  

Christianity is built on personal inquiry, personal revelation, personal relationship with God.  When any person tries to dictate personal beliefs, tries to take away agency - "trust me, I know better than you" prideful stuff → this is the stuff the dark ages was made from.  

If the Mormon church really wants to be Christian, really wants to be the "Church of Jesus Christ" and not the "Church of Joseph Smith and other prophets", they need to allow everyone their own personal testimony, their own free agency, their own beliefs without trying to dictate every last little thing.  

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by changed

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Seminary, relief society, gospel doctrine - it is all dictated with no room for personal exploration and expression.  You cannot question, or disagree with, anything the "prophet" has said... this is soooo wrong.  

We all have free agency.  We all hold slightly different beliefs, have had different experiences which have formed those beliefs.  We all must gain our own personal testimony without relying on the light of others.  Other organizations recognize this, do not try to dictate beliefs, allow everyone personal inquiry and expression.  Other churches allow everyone to find their own light, celebrate individual light, rather than dictating everyone's beliefs.    

Do not trust the arm of flesh = do not trust anyone (even if they are a prophet).  Judas was a prophet, what are we to learn from that?  Doubting Thomas was a prophet.  

• 16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? 
• And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
• Peter then denied again: and immediately the **** crew.
• And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
• Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

We are supposed to trust and follow....  apostles???  I think the scriptures teach very clearly we cannot fully trust or rely on prophets and apostles - they are a rather incompetent bunch.  

It comes down to personal testimonies, not trusting in and following in the arms of flesh.  

Christianity is built on personal inquiry, personal revelation, personal relationship with God.  When any person tries to dictate personal beliefs, tries to take away agency - "trust me, I know better than you" prideful stuff → this is the stuff the dark ages was made from.  

If the Mormon church really wants to be Christian, really wants to be the "Church of Jesus Christ" and not the "Church of Joseph Smith and other prophets", they need to allow everyone their own personal testimony, their own free agency, their own beliefs without trying to dictate every last little thing.  

 

Of course personal testimony is paramount.

Your characterization of the church and prophets, I believe, is untrue and unfair.

 

A few scriptures to consider:

 

Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

(Amos 3:7)

 

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(Matthew 16:18-19)

 

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

(Ephesians 4:11-12)

 

Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you...

(Doctrine & Covenants 21:4-6)

 

The Lord seems to place importance on His children following prophets and apostles.

Edited September 14, 2018 by ksfisher

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Seminary, relief society, gospel doctrine - it is all dictated with no room for personal exploration and expression.  You cannot question, or disagree with, anything the "prophet" has said... this is soooo wrong.  

 

Why is it so wrong?  

Quote

 

We all have free agency.  We all hold slightly different beliefs, have had different experiences which have formed those beliefs.  We all must gain our own personal testimony without relying on the light of others.  Other organizations recognize this, do not try to dictate beliefs, allow everyone personal inquiry and expression.  Other churches allow everyone to find their own light, celebrate individual light, rather than dictating everyone's beliefs.    

 

Free agency does not mean we get to decide what it true and what isn't, though.  It means we have the freedom to choose to accept what is true or to reject it.  

And other organizations definitely don't allow people to express whatever beliefs they want.  Try going into a Baptist or Catholic church and openly teaching that the trinity is false and that God is an exalted man and see how far you get.  Try teaching in a buddhist or Hindu temple that everyone must accept Christ to be saved and that reincarnation false and worshipping multiple gods is a sin.  You'll be asked to leave (kindly but they'll still want you to go).

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, changed said:

Seminary, relief society, gospel doctrine - it is all dictated with no room for personal exploration and expression.  You cannot question, or disagree with, anything the "prophet" has said... this is soooo wrong.  

We all have free agency.  We all hold slightly different beliefs, have had different experiences which have formed those beliefs.  We all must gain our own personal testimony without relying on the light of others.  Other organizations recognize this, do not try to dictate beliefs, allow everyone personal inquiry and expression.  Other churches allow everyone to find their own light, celebrate individual light, rather than dictating everyone's beliefs.    

I'm going totally disagree with you.  Yes, there are core doctrines, but we each sing in our own voice and there are a variety of views on non-core things.  Each person needs to study, learn, and have their own relationship with Christ.  Out of the 100's of different churches I've been too and studied, I find that no church stresses this as much as LDS.  Most other Christian churches are actually really take a hard stance of "these are the core doctrines, this is Truth, I told you it, now swallow it."   There's not that stress on personal agency or revelation.  

 

5 hours ago, changed said:

Christianity is built on personal inquiry, personal revelation, personal relationship with God.  When any person tries to dictate personal beliefs, tries to take away agency - "trust me, I know better than you" prideful stuff → this is the stuff the dark ages was made from.  

If the Mormon church really wants to be Christian, really wants to be the "Church of Jesus Christ" and not the "Church of Joseph Smith and other prophets", they need to allow everyone their own personal testimony, their own free agency, their own beliefs without trying to dictate every last little thing.  

 

If that's your metric, LDS are already way more Christian in that regard than non-denominational, Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox, Methodist, etc.  

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Avatar4321]

On 9/13/2018 at 4:07 PM, rockpond said:

I know it's hearsay but that is still interesting.

We've talked about types of mission (service, proselyting) and mission age changes but I don't think we've every discussed the possibility of a change to the length of a mission.  Could they be considering returning to 18 month missions for all?

Or it’s time to call all missionaries home and let the Lord preach His own sermons

[carbon dioxide]

11 hours ago, changed said:

If the Mormon church really wants to be Christian, really wants to be the "Church of Jesus Christ" and not the "Church of Joseph Smith and other prophets", they need to allow everyone their own personal testimony, their own free agency, their own beliefs without trying to dictate every last little thing.  

 

Everyone is allowed their own agency, testimony, beliefs.  The problem is some people decide that their own beliefs and testimony should be the doctrines of the Church and demand that the Church submit to their demands.  Kate Kelly for example was not exed for her belief in woman having the priesthood.  She was exed for taking the next step for starting an organization demanding the Church comply with her views or campaigning for change.  I am sure I have some unorthodox views but I keep those views to myself or a small group of people.  They don't come out on Sunday.

[Avatar4321]

20 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'd prefer that as well and am doing all I can.  But right now there is a gap that seems un-bridgeable. (Is that a word?)

These are great suggestions!

For those among my little Senior Living congregation who are able to leave the facility (most don't drive but there is a shuttle that will take them places), I have invited them to certain church events:  Christmas, Easter, etc.  But those who attend our Sunday devotional mostly do so because they aren't able to get to church elsewhere.

How is your study of the Book of Mormon?

talk to the Lord. Christ has a way of bridging gaps