RevTestament Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, ALarson said: That's fine. As far as I knew, there was nothing recorded in the New Testament where Christ stated what you claimed ( that "Christ Himself commanded that His Church be called by His name").and I was correct. I understand your bringing in more modern scripture (and I'm aware of what they contain.) I believe the earliest followers of Yeshua called themselves The Way. The term Christian came about in Antioch - probably by non-members. There was a definite organization set up. There were 12 apostles who began to replace themselves. There were "other seventy." There were bishops. To seriously believe that Yeshua did not set up any organization just does not comport with the evidence. Did Christ suggest a specific name at that time? Apparently not in Galilee. Do you think He approves of "Lutheran Church" though? I don't. 1
MiserereNobis Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I am curious then about what a Czech translation of the Bible would do with the term saints. It uses the plural adjective. Czech uses a Latinate grammar of gendered numbered declensions for nouns and adjectives.
ALarson Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, RevTestament said: I believe the earliest followers of Yeshua called themselves The Way. The term Christian came about in Antioch - probably by non-members. There was a definite organization set up. There were 12 apostles who began to replace themselves. There were "other seventy." There were bishops. To seriously believe that Yeshua did not set up any organization just does not comport with the evidence. Did Christ suggest a specific name at that time? Apparently not in Galilee. Yes, I agree (no commandment as Scott stated). And thanks for the additional information!
Scott Lloyd Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) On 8/17/2018 at 12:00 PM, ALarson said: There is nothing in the New Testament regarding what your claim was (that "Christ Himself commanded that His Church be called by His name") and that was why I asked the question. I was interested to see what you had or if I'd missed anything (and I haven't). We agree on that (from what I can tell...unless you have the quote from "Christ himself" commanding this). But even if there’s nothing about it recorded, that doesn’t mean he never taught it. And we know He did teach it to the Nephites (which is what my “claim” pertained to). And He taught it in latter days. That is sufficient to the moment, so I don’t get why you are making an issue of this. Do you not accept latter-day scripture? Do you think the New Testament contains all of Christ’s teachings (even though it says it doesn’t)? Have you become an advocate for the sola scriptura dogma? Edited November 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 2
Tacenda Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: Because most Christian church's self-designation as being Christian are accepted, even if the person doing the accepting doesn't know anything specific about that religion other than that they are Catholic or protestant. That's not true for the church. We call ourselves Christian and other church's reply 'no, you're not, I don't care what you say.' Were you really not aware of this? Yes, but wished it weren't so I guess, it did enter my mind. But don't you think those that think that way will still think that? By looking at our doctrine? And it not matching to what they think is in the bible? Or them not being aware of information that scholars in our church have said about our doctine lining up? I don't mind that Pres. Nelson has reiterated what has been said in the past and feels inspired to say so. I do believe he has a good reason for it. I just wish we didn't have to continually say we believe in Christ or we are Christians too. I wish it was a given, and wish the outsiders didn't look at us like they do. I hadn't realized the dislike of my religion until a few years ago. I lived in a bubble. Now I read polls and it mentions that we are the third from the bottom of the most disliked religions just above Atheists and Muslims. I can see why the leaders worry, and fight for freedom of religion. Sometimes the world or our country seems to be going backwards and we're still seeing people attacked for their beliefs, the color of their skin etc.
Popular Post bluebell Posted August 17, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, Tacenda said: Yes, but wished it weren't so I guess, it did enter my mind. But don't you think those that think that way will still think that? By looking at our doctrine? And it not matching to what they think is in the bible? Or them not being aware of information that scholars in our church have said about our doctine lining up? I don't mind that Pres. Nelson has reiterated what has been said in the past and feels inspired to say so. I do believe he has a good reason for it. I just wish we didn't have to continually say we believe in Christ or we are Christians too. I wish it was a given, and wish the outsiders didn't look at us like they do. I hadn't realized the dislike of my religion until a few years ago. I lived in a bubble. Now I read polls and it mentions that we are the third from the bottom of the most disliked religions just above Atheists and Muslims. I can see why the leaders worry, and fight for freedom of religion. Sometimes the world or our country seems to be going backwards and we're still seeing people attacked for their beliefs, the color of their skin etc. From my experience, those who are determined that we are not Christian will not change their mind for any reason. For others, they almost always eventually admit that individual members are indeed Christian once they sincerely get to know one of us, even while they still admit that they disagree with some of our doctrine. I agree it's annoying that people won't let us self-identify, but it is what it is. Prejudice often runs deep, regardless of the subject. 5
RevTestament Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, ALarson said: Yes, I agree (no commandment as Scott stated). And thanks for the additional information! I don't think you are being fair to Scott who merely stated: Furthermore, as I have repeatedly pointed out, Christ Himself commanded that His Church be called by His name. We are not talking about some name He commanded in Galilee here on this thread. Scott's statement is accurate. Yeshua made a suggestion in 3 Nephi, and a commandment in D&C for His restored Church. That is patently what Scott was talking about. You have been dogging after him for over an hour on some frankly irrelevant point imho. And you lose on the point whether Christ organized a church. And you are welcome on the additional information. 3
Scott Lloyd Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 25 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It uses the plural adjective. Czech uses a Latinate grammar of gendered numbered declensions for nouns and adjectives. It's the same with Swedish. Heliga is the plural adjective for "holy." It also means "saints," as in the holy, or the holy ones. So Latter-day Saints is translated to Sista Dagars Heliga. But there is no problem in Swedish with anything being lost in the translation of that term.
Scott Lloyd Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 24 minutes ago, ALarson said: Yes, I agree (no commandment as Scott stated). And thanks for the additional information! Again, you cannot say there was no commandment, as you don't know all the things Christ said and did in those times.
ALarson Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, RevTestament said: We are not talking about some name He commanded in Galilee here on this thread. Scott's statement is accurate. Yeshua made a suggestion in 3 Nephi, and a commandment in D&C for His restored Church. That is patently what Scott was talking about. Once again, that's fine and I understand. My question was specifically regarding what was contained in the records from the New Testament (and I was correct regarding what I'd remembered). I know what's in the more modern scriptures and agree.
ALarson Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Again, you cannot say there was no commandment, as you don't know all the things Christ said and did in those times. I haven't stated that "there was no commandment", have I? I asked if there was anything recorded in the New Testament that supported your very specific statement. And there isn't. I agree there's more to support this in our modern scriptures. But I asked about the New Testament. I'm not sure what is so difficult for you to grasp regarding what I was asking. I didn't remember from my reading the NT that it contained anything attributed or quoted by "Christ himself" regarding him "commanding" that "His Church be called by His name", but asked if you knew of anything recorded. Pretty simple question and it appears we agree on the answer. Edited August 17, 2018 by ALarson
rongo Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It uses the plural adjective. Czech uses a Latinate grammar of gendered numbered declensions for nouns and adjectives. Are you of Czech descent, or Czech yourself? My parents are leaving for their second mission in September. They're going to the Czech Republic. Their first mission was in Warsaw. ETA: I've asked them to get me an old Czech Book of Mormon. We had them in Germany in the mid-1990s, but I never thought to bring one home. They were small, red with red-edged pages, and had KM on the cover. Kniega Mormona (or something like that) means "Book of Mormon," but clearly the small red book with KM on the cover was meant to also "hide" as state-approved reading during the Cold War. Edited August 17, 2018 by rongo 2
RevTestament Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: From my experience, those who are determined that we are not Christian will not change their mind for any reason. For others, they almost always eventually admit that individual members are indeed Christian once they sincerely get to know one of us, even while they still admit that they disagree with some of our doctrine. I agree it's annoying that people won't let us self-identify, but it is what it is. Prejudice often runs deep, regardless of the subject. My experience on Christian and Religion forums has been frustrating. If they allow LDS to post in a particular forum, this can change if that LDS poster begins to draw attention. They seem to like to feel that they are doing us some kind of religious favor by allowing us on their site which may lead to our conversion or at least allow them to show how "wrong" we are. If that doesn't happen, it seems imho that they then become defensive and clamp down. They may force LDS out of a particular forum by claiming we are not Christian. I have experienced this first-hand. Even if the owner is more liberal, individual moderators often are not. I have observed a certain prejudice that other Christians do not want "Mormons" posting on forums they frequent - so yeah, the prejudice is deep. 1
bluebell Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, RevTestament said: My experience on Christian and Religion forums has been frustrating. If they allow LDS to post in a particular forum, this can change if that LDS poster begins to draw attention. They seem to like to feel that they are doing us some kind of religious favor by allowing us on their site which may lead to our conversion or at least allow them to show how "wrong" we are. If that doesn't happen, it seems imho that they then become defensive and clamp down. They may force LDS out of a particular forum by claiming we are not Christian. I have experienced this first-hand. Even if the owner is more liberal, individual moderators often are not. I have observed a certain prejudice that other Christians do not want "Mormons" posting on forums they frequent - so yeah, the prejudice is deep. I had similar experiences on my mission when tracting. Occasionally we would tract into someone who was very nice but adamantly wanted us to come in and speak with them. We were not allowed to talk about our beliefs but we would just be listening to them tell us about theirs and especially why our's were wrong. Those were always quick "thanks no thanks!" kind of doors.
MiserereNobis Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, rongo said: Are you of Czech descent, or Czech yourself? My parents are leaving for their second mission in September. They're going to the Czech Republic. Their first mission was in Warsaw. Awesome for them. It is a wonderful country with wonderful people. Too bad they won't be able to enjoy the good beer I'm not Czech but I did make it my home base for a couple of years in the 90s when I was young and exploring Europe. I've been back a few times to visit friends. Your parents are lucky. Poland is nice, but something about the Czech people grabbed my heart and hasn't let go. 1
Tacenda Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/08/16/if-lds-church-wants-drop/ Maybe this is the reason as well. Read to the bottom, it mentions sites such as MormonStories, MormonLeaks, exMormon Reddit. I can add more, how about... Ex Mormon Files, Mormon Matters, Naked Mormonism...
kllindley Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, bluebell said: I had similar experiences on my mission when tracting. Occasionally we would tract into someone who was very nice but adamantly wanted us to come in and speak with them. We were not allowed to talk about our beliefs but we would just be listening to them tell us about theirs and especially why our's were wrong. Those were always quick "thanks no thanks!" kind of doors. I honestly can't relate. That would have been the highlight of most weeks on my mission. Right or wrong, I would never have turned down a chance to have more than a two-phrase conversation. 2
SouthernMo Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t believe the opinion I expressed was well thought out. I think you are trying to engage in gotcha type questioning. As I said, I don’t have time for that today I don't mean to engage in any 'gotcha' questioning. Sometimes my opinions aren't well thought out, either. I just try to fully understand others' thoughts because it helps shape mine (for the better) - especially from people like you. You and I have a very different approach to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. How naive would I be if I thought I was 'right' and you were 'wrong' in our approaches? I think our church needs thoughts/perspectives/and approaches of all kinds to function best. I would not be happy in our church if everyone thought like I do. So, even though I see you annoy some people on here with what seems to be a more traditionalist/conservative/orthodox/TBM/(whatever you want to call it) perspective - please keep at it. You force us on the other end of the spectrum to rethink our assumptions IF we consider your ideas seriously, and don't write them off as 'Lloydisms.' I just hope that from time to time, you'll consider our ideas, too. 2
MiserereNobis Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 10 minutes ago, rongo said: ETA: I've asked them to get me an old Czech Book of Mormon. We had them in Germany in the mid-1990s, but I never thought to bring one home. They were small, red with red-edged pages, and had KM on the cover. Kniega Mormona (or something like that) means "Book of Mormon," but clearly the small red book with KM on the cover was meant to also "hide" as state-approved reading during the Cold War. Cool! Book of Mormon in Czech would be "Kniha Mormona" or "Kniha Mormonova" depending on how the LDS church wanted it translated.
rongo Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: Awesome for them. It is a wonderful country with wonderful people. Too bad they won't be able to enjoy the good beer I'm not Czech but I did make it my home base for a couple of years in the 90s when I was young and exploring Europe. I've been back a few times to visit friends. Your parents are lucky. Poland is nice, but something about the Czech people grabbed my heart and hasn't let go. They loved Poland. They are fervent Catholics, whom their church means a lot to. And, they love their Pope! My parents lived right across the street from a big church monument to John Paul II that is being built. They were amazed at how observant the Polish Catholics were (Mass attendance, etc.). compared to many other places. They were the mission secretary and the mission finance missionary, and while they loved it, it was very taxing. This time, they are simply assigned to a branch in Liberic (really close to Germany and Poland, in the Sudetenland. Pretty close to Prague, too). On paper, the LDS Church is stronger in the Czech Republic than in Poland. Poland is solely under the mission president, which means it has districts and branches. CR has a stake, which is under a stake president. While they are learning Czech, my dad is really hoping that there is still a lot of German spoken there.
rongo Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Cool! Book of Mormon in Czech would be "Kniha Mormona" or "Kniha Mormonova" depending on how the LDS church wanted it translated. It was Mormona. It looks close to Polish (and other Slavic languages). "Book" in Polish is "Ksiega." I think "God" is "bog" in all of them, and I think "ja" means "I" in Polish.
stemelbow Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 The positive is hopefully the term anti-Mormon will go the way of the dinosaurs now.
cinepro Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 Thank you NBC News for my biggest laugh of the week: Quote Don't use 'Mormon' or 'LDS' as church name, president says Both terms have been used for decades to refer to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. SALT LAKE CITY — The faith has the famous Mormon Tabernacle Choir, recently made a documentary about its members called "Meet the Mormons" and uses "Mormon" in its official website addresses. But on Thursday Mormon church President Russell M. Nelson said he wants people to stop using "Mormon," or "LDS" as substitutes for the full name of the religion: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/don-t-use-mormon-or-lds-church-name-president-says-n901491 2
california boy Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, SouthernMo said: I know, I was making a tongue-in-cheek point. Those who don't support/endorse the authority of President Nelson aren't going to change their language, which makes me think (hope?) that this is somehow directed at members of the church less so than those outside the faith. This is definitely the case. The amount of money time and effort it would take to change what people call the church is huge. Perhaps the most the church could hope for is that the media may at times follow this directive, but I doubt that will happen in a way the church would like it to happen. Publications have to write articles that people know what church they are referring to. Perhaps in the western United States, where the church is better known it could somewhat work, but for most of the world, not going to happen by wishing it so. But hey, the church has billions. If they want to rebrand the church bad enough, it could happen. In any event, I have no problem adjusting to their request.
RevTestament Posted August 17, 2018 Posted August 17, 2018 40 minutes ago, Tacenda said: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/08/16/if-lds-church-wants-drop/ Maybe this is the reason as well. Read to the bottom, it mentions sites such as MormonStories, MormonLeaks, exMormon Reddit. I can add more, how about... Ex Mormon Files, Mormon Matters, Naked Mormonism... I really think Pres. Nelson is trying to direct the Church to follow the admonition of our Savior, but if those sites get left behind, it certainly won't hurt my feelings. The reality is though that most non-members know of the Church as the Mormon Church, and simply aren't going to stop using this custom because the Church stops. The Church was branded this name my non-members for a reason - they didn't want to recognize the Christian status of the Church. So people who feel this way, aren't going to stop. Because of the Book of Mormon, the name will always be at least somewhat associated with the Church. But that very book tells us what we should do in this regard. I am not offended if someone asks if I am Mormon. I believe a fair number of people put explicit trust in me, because they know I am LDS. I just respond, yes, I am LDS Christian. Sometimes that gives me an additional opportunity to respond to further inquiries.
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