The Name of the Church

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Just how long ago was the “I’m a Mormon” campaign?  I feel it wasn’t that long ago.

I am going to do my best to make this change, but it is going to be difficult to always remember.

It doesn't matter how long ago it was. The guidelines never forbade referring to members of the Church as Mormons until now.

 

[JulieM]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It doesn't matter how long ago it was. The guidelines never forbade referring to members of the Church as Mormons until now.

 

“Forbade”?

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, JulieM said:

“Forbade”?

Past tense of to forbid.

Did I get it wrong? What's it supposed to be?

Edited to add:

Nope. I just looked it up. From Dictionary,com:
 

Quote

 

forbade: a simple past tense of forbid.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Exiled]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yeah, that's a really unfortunate picture. You can tell a lot about a person/organization's point of view by the pictures they choose. If you doubt this, look at pictures Fox News uses of Hillary or CNN uses of Trump.

That was a strange one for me to wrap my head around. Legally, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't exist as an organization. The name is a trademark. The legal entity is the Corporation of the President, but like you say, we're not members of that. The question of legal standing is interesting. I wonder if the only legal standing is as donor or if a court would take into account a person's 'membership' in the trademark name.

The idea is to ensure that usurpers and other malcontents can't get at the organization. So, rights are limited.

[Exiled]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It doesn't matter how long ago it was. The guidelines never forbade referring to members of the Church as Mormons until now.

 

I don't know but maybe come out with something better than a fight over the name? Is this just signaling to the faithful to go back to old time values? It seems like a rally around the flag thing that he's doing.

[JulieM]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Past tense of to forbid.

Did I get it wrong? What's it supposed to be?

Edited to add:

Nope. I just looked it up. From Dictionary,com:
 

 

That’s not the word President Nelson used.  Forbid sounds more like “force” and is something someone else would say, not the Prophet.

“Encouraged” and “preferred”?  Yes

But not “forbid”.  That’s your word.

Edited August 18, 2018 by JulieM

[Thinking]

40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You are forgetting -- or perhaps you never knew or understood -- that under the old policy, it was OK to use the word "Mormon" in reference to the members of the Church, just not the name of the Church itself. The big change happening now, the name Mormon is forbidden even in reference to the members.

So no, there has been no walking back.

Does discouraged = forbidden?

 

 

 

[sunstoned]

59 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You are forgetting -- or perhaps you never knew or understood -- that under the old policy, it was OK to use the word "Mormon" in reference to the members of the Church, just not the name of the Church itself. The big change happening now, the name Mormon is forbidden even in reference to the members.

So no, there has been no walking back.

 

Forbidden?  I don't recall that term being used in the press release.  This isn't North Korea. 

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Yeah, this wasn't so well thought out. The word "Mormon" is baked into everything. You can't extricate it by fiat.

Plus, Mormon is recognizable and is widely used by the press, media and the general public.  I just did a quick Google on "mormon".  I got 36,400,00 hits.  A Google on "church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints" returned 10,200,00 hits.  That is less than one third of the hits Mormon got.

The church has really got it's work cut out for them on this one.  But if it is a revelation to Elder Russ Nelson, then I'm sure the Lord will provide a way.

[Duncan]

Just came back from hearing Elder Andersen of the Twelve and President Russell M. Nelson, not one word about the name of the Church. Elder Andersen talked about the gathering of Israel and President Nelson talked about the Temple, he read it and parts he's used before but it was great! They showed us the new exterior design of our yet to be built Temple, so that was cool!

[sunstoned]

30 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I don't know but maybe come out with something better than a fight over the name? Is this just signaling to the faithful to go back to old time values? It seems like a rally around the flag thing that he's doing.

To me it sounds like it is a pet project with Nelson.  He pushed this a number of years ago (1990) with his conference talk.  No one took him serious.   GBH even walked it back.  Then later the PR department rolled out the "I'm a Mormon" campaign. That had to of been frustrating.  Now that Nelson is the one in charge,  he is giving it another try.

[ksfisher]

15 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

To me it sounds like it is a pet project with Nelson.  He pushed this a number of years ago (1990) with his conference talk.  No one took him serious.   GBH even walked it back.  Then later the PR department rolled out the "I'm a Mormon" campaign. That had to of been frustrating.  Now that Nelson is the one in charge,  he is giving it another try.

Perhaps instead of speculation we could take President Nelson at his word

“The Lord has impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He has revealed for His Church, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

He says that the Lord has impressed it upon his mind.

Edited August 18, 2018 by ksfisher

[Exiled]

10 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

To me it sounds like it is a pet project with Nelson.  He pushed this a number of years ago (1990) with his conference talk.  No one took him serious.   GBH even walked it back.  Then later the PR department rolled out the "I'm a Mormon" campaign. That had to of been frustrating.  Now that Nelson is the one in charge,  he is giving it another try.

It's too long of a name. Try saying it in another language as a door knocking intro. We needed advice on how to cheerfully say the complete name ...

Mormon was soooo much easier ... and it means "more good" .....

Please remember the missionaries ....👍

[Avatar4321]

17 minutes ago, Exiled said:

It's too long of a name. Try saying it in another language as a door knocking intro. We needed advice on how to cheerfully say the complete name ...

Mormon was soooo much easier ... and it means "more good" .....

Please remember the missionaries ....👍

We always used the name of the Church as missionaries. I don't remember ever calling ourselves the Mormon church

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

What reason is there to be unhappy with the changes? I suspect the bigger problem will be indifference 

“Mormonism” is deeply engrained in my heritage, my culture, my beliefs, my faith, and my identity.  Naturally, I have a deep rooted emotional attachment to the the term.   On top of that, I can’t think of a useful term to replace the word with.  How do I express that “Mormonism” is part of my identity without using the word? My identity is more than “the church”, it is “Mormonism”, which I have already expressed means so much more.

Some of you may remember Ezra Taft Benson singing “I am a Mormon boy” from the pulpit in conference in his quivering, warm, and completely out-of-tune voice in 1989.  That was a brave and touching expression of his emotional ties with his identity as an “honest Mormon boy”.  I feel the same.

I find it hard to believe that any long-term member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (formerly known as “Mormon”) would be really genuine if they didn’t feel an emotional connection with that identity as a Mormon...and a sadness with its loss.  I am not really a college football fan, but I imagine that it would be like changing the BYU mascott to something...anything other than a cougar.  For an alumni super fan who always rooted for “the cougars” and identified as a “cougar” - there would be a sense of loss.

I am willing to try on something new, but I would not be genuine if I said that I like it yet.

Edited August 18, 2018 by pogi

[Rajah Manchou]

14 minutes ago, Exiled said:

It's too long of a name. Try saying it in another language as a door knocking intro. We needed advice on how to cheerfully say the complete name ...

Mormon was soooo much easier ... and it means "more good" .....

Please remember the missionaries ....👍

Door approaches back in my day went something like "Hi. We're missionaries for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", using the full name, which in French comes across kinda apocalyptic: "The Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Last Days". But still, we wouldn't introduce ourselves as Mormons. We avoided the term Mormon because there was an infamous local splinter cult that called themselves Mormons, and they did their baptisms in the nude.

Either way, door approaches were always awkward.

[pogi]

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

That’s not the word President Nelson used.  Forbid sounds more like “force” and is something someone else would say, not the Prophet.

“Encouraged” and “preferred”?  Yes

But not “forbid”.  That’s your word.

 

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Forbidden?  I don't recall that term being used in the press release.  This isn't North Korea. 

 

 

Here's the official statement:

 

Quote

President Russell M. Nelson of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made the following statement regarding the name of the Church:

The Lord has impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He has revealed for His Church, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We have work before us to bring ourselves in harmony with His will. In recent weeks, various Church leaders and departments have initiated the necessary steps to do so. Additional information about this important matter will be made available in the coming months.

See the updated Newsroom style guide, which provides direction on how to properly refer to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In the coming months, Church websites and materials will be updated to reflect this direction from President Nelson.

 

The word "encouraged" doesn't appear here. Neither does "preferred."

They do in the updated Newsroom style guide, but that is directed primarily to outside mass media. Internally, as it pertains to Church leaders and departments (and, to the extent they are expected to adhere to Church doctrines, policies and guidelines, Church members), it seems this is pretty much mandatory.  So no, in that context, I don't believe forbid (or its past tense, forbade) is too strong a word.

And by the way, why is it being continually referred to here as a "press release"? It is designated as an "official statement."

But how about we all just cease the silly quibbling over terminology?

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Thinking]

Quote

Additional information about this important matter will be made available in the coming months.

Well, it didn't take long for the additional information to become available.

Quote

President Russell M. Nelson has released a new statement related to the proper use of the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As members of His church, each of us will also adapt into our daily routine the proper use of our original given name. To lead the way, all general authorities will use their birth names as follows: first name, middle initial, last name. For example, M. Russell Ballard will now be known as Melvin R. Ballard.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

“Mormonism” is deeply engrained in my heritage, my culture, and my identity.  Naturally, I have a deep rooted emotional attachment to the the term.   On top of that, I can’t think of a useful term to replace the word with.  How do I express that “Mormonism” is part of my identity without using the word? My identity is more than “the church”, it is “Mormonism”, which I have already expressed means so much more.

Some of you may remember Ezra Taft Benson singing “I am a Mormon boy” from the pulpit in conference in his quivering, warm, and completely out-of-tune voice in 1989.  That was a brave and touching expression of his emotional ties with his identity as an “honest Mormon boy”.  I feel the same.

I find it hard to believe that any long-term member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (formerly known as “Mormon”) would be really genuine if they didn’t feel an emotional connection with that identity as a Mormon...and a sadness with its loss.  I am not really a college football fan, but I imagine that it would be like changing the BYU macott (Cougar) to something...anything else, for an alumni super fan who always rooted for “the cougars” and identified as a “cougar”.  There would be a sense of loss.

"Mormon" was originally a term of hatred and derision applied to the Church by its enemies. Even after it was eventually accepted by Church members into common usage, it never did have any deep spiritual or symbolic significance.

Perhaps we should bear that in mind before getting too sentimentally attached to the term.

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Well, it didn't take long for the additional information to become available.

If you're going to do this, you ought not carry it on too long. Some here are apt to take you seriously.

[Rajah Manchou]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

"Mormon" was originally a term of hatred and derision applied to the Church by its enemies. Even after it was eventually accepted by Church members into common usage, it never did have any deep spiritual or symbolic significance.

Perhaps we should bear that in mind before getting too sentimentally attached to the term.

 

Growing up in the middle of the Bible Belt, the Joseph F. Smith story was one of those that always stuck with me:

"One day when the company had stopped to camp and rest, a group of troublemakers came storming through. Most of the men ran and hid, but [Joseph F. Smith] decided he had nothing to be afraid of, so he continued the task of piling firewood in the camp. As he did so, one of the men approached him with a pistol, declaring that it was his duty to exterminate every Mormon he came in contact with. As he pointed his pistol at Joseph, he demanded, “Are you a Mormon?” Without fear or hesitation, Joseph answered, “Yes siree; dyed in the wool; true blue, through and through.”

I don't know, the term has always held spiritual and symbolic significance for me.
Spinning things now to make it seem as if it never did, is too awkward.

[Thinking]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you're going to do this, you ought not carry it on too long. Some here are apt to take you seriously.

Just trying to add a little humor. I dropped the appropriate emoticon as a hint for those who don't share my poor sense of humor.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

I don't know but maybe come out with something better than a fight over the name? Is this just signaling to the faithful to go back to old time values? It seems like a rally around the flag thing that he's doing.

Weren’t we called “Brighamites” at one time?

Maybe that’s better than the word Mormon, but I love saying that “I’m a Mormon”....it makes me proud.  

I hate it becoming a dirty, “forbidden” term that describes a big part of who I am.

Edited August 18, 2018 by JulieM

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

"Mormon" was originally a term of hatred and derision applied to the Church by its enemies. Even after it was eventually accepted by Church members into common usage, it never did have any deep spiritual or symbolic significance.

Perhaps we should bear that in mind before getting too sentimentally attached to the term.

 

I am aware of the history.  I am sure President Benson was aware too as he sung his overtly sentimental expression in song of his pride in being a “Mormon boy”.  Perhaps I shouldn’t feel sentimental at my identity as a “Christian” for the same reasons.  But alas, I do.