Are More People Leaving the Church: Study

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This has been our experience with family support for the addiction recovery program. So many of us avoid conflict at all costs, try to insulate each other from adversity, and expect everything to be perfect if we just do the family prayers, scripture study, attend meetings, go to the temple, etc. But when something goes sideways such as a loved one choosing poorly and going into addiction, self-destruction, and family disruptions. we aren’t equipped to deal with the chaos that ensues. Doing those spiritual things is critical, but we should also be prepared for the Lamans, Lemuels, Almas, and Coriantons who come into our lives.

Eh, wot, you say?

You mean God Isn't Like Santa Claus, Who Gives "Presents" to His "Good" Children and "Lumps of Coal" to His "Bad" Ones?  Now you tell me?!  

  

[CV75]

14 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. I stand by my point that exposure to troubling issues tends to correlate to faith crises. 

That's fine, but it must be recognized that exposure to troubling issues tends to correlate to a growth in faith as well. And to both apathy and concern.

[Meerkat]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:51 AM, hope_for_things said:

I've met with a number of leaders in my ward and stake on this topic directly, asking for them to address this concern at a local level, expressing how isolating and difficult a faith crisis is to go through, and offering my services to help support people in need.  But unfortunately, I haven't had success getting engagement.  I get empathy from the leaders, but at the end of the day, I don't think they dare take initiative without marching orders from above.  I think they are more fearful of spreading the disease, than they are willing to make any substantive attempts to help.  

Actually, I think you are mistaken on this point.  Many leaders do encourage members to receive some excellent help the Church provides.  Addiction recovery, family support groups, LDS Social Services and local counselors are all available and often encouraged and occasionally supported with Fast Offering funds.  The marching orders from above are "Help Them!"  The Church also provides  legal help line for certain issues, and other resources.  The leaders are not oblivious.  Far from it.  They are doing their best to keep up with an avalanche of challenges that have arrived with technology, the breakup of the family and drug addiction.

I see two Church issues that would be helpful to address:

First, bishops and stake presidents do need more than LDS Social Services reps dropping by a packet of pamphlets.  They need eyeball to eyeball training on how to listen to these troubled people, and love them in the direction of available resources.  Such training would take time away from the mountain of their other responsibilities.  In my opinion, many are in a "too busy sawing" state that to take time to sharpen the saw.  Perhaps it would help if they could slow down the train long enough to get the needed training.  Their help would be more effectual, and lighten their load.

Second, family members, who put on their best face at Church, are often too embarrassed or proud to attend the weekly Family Support meeting when they finally realize a family member has a big challenge they are dealing with.  I understand.  We were embarrassed when we learned we had loved ones suffering from addiction.  I attended alone for months before my wife came along.  In the beginning, we came with tears and a broken heart.  Now, we have joy and have learned things that are helping to mend our relationships.  With the Lord's help obtained in those meetings, they are healing.  Maybe new people who attend wonder "How can you be happy with this family tragedy?"  Give it a chance.  You will see.

Illustrative of the pride and embarrassment issues is the wonderful and healing multi-stake family support meeting we attend each week.  It typically has 4 to 5 people in attendance, including the facilitators.  And they, as missionaries, go to the wards and stakes, taking time to speak in Sacrament meetings explaining the significant help that is available.  In my opinion, there could be at least 5 to twenty people in every ward who could benefit from this.  But regionally, we see 4 to 5.  You can't blame the Church for that.  Family members have some responsibility to be meek and lowly enough to accept the help, imo.  We need to learn how to encourage that without triggering embarrassment or other non productive emotions.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Meerkat

[Duncan]

On 8/3/2018 at 9:28 AM, Nevo said:

Here's the graph for YM/YW attendance (red line is YW, purple line is YM):

There are 95 prospective elders out of 186 adult males. Most of those haven't been to church in decades. At least three are genuine "prospective elders": two recent converts and a man who recently returned to activity. All of them have callings and have been attending regularly for several months. Another convert who was baptized last summer was ordained an elder last month.

Fully half of the adults in our ward are single. Most of the women are active; most of the men aren't.

I'm looking at our stats for our ward, we have endowed with recommend 78 and endowed without recommend is 56, I know some without a recommend but not 50 of them and obviously I am not privy to that info! I wonder too if it isn't older people who are endowed but just can't get to the Temple anymore and just don't bother renewing, I can see some those in our ward

[Bernard Gui]

58 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Actually, I think you are mistaken on this point.  Many leaders do encourage members to receive some excellent help the Church provides.  Addiction recovery, family support groups, LDS Social Services and local counselors are all available and often encouraged and occasionally supported with Fast Offering funds.  The marching orders from above are "Help Them!"  The Church also provides  legal help line for certain issues, and other resources.  The leaders are not oblivious.  Far from it.  They are doing their best to keep up with an avalanche of challenges that have arrived with technology, the breakup of the family and drug addiction.

I see two Church issues that would be helpful to address:

First, bishops and stake presidents do need more that LDS Social Services reps dropping by a packet of pamphlets.  They need eyeball to eyeball training on how to listen to these troubled people, and love them in the direction of available resources.  Such training would take time away from the mountain of their other responsibilities.  In my opinion, many are in a "too busy sawing" state that to take time to sharpen the saw.  Perhaps it would help if they could slow down the train long enough to get the needed training.  Their help would be more effectual, and lighten their load.

Second, family members, who put on their best face at Church, are often too embarrassed or proud to attend the weekly Family Support meeting when they finally realize a family member has a big challenge they are dealing with.  I understand.  We were embarrassed when we learned we had loved ones suffering from addiction.  I attended alone for months before my wife came along.  In the beginning, we came with tears and a broken heart.  Now, we have joy and have learned things that are helping to mend our relationships.  They are healing.  Maybe new people who attend the meeting wonder "How can you be happy with this family tragedy?"  Give it a chance.  You will see.

Illustrative of the pride and embarrassment issues is the wonderful and healing multi-stake family support meeting we attend each week.  It typically has 4 to 5 people in attendance, including the facilitators.  And they, as missionaries, go to the wards and stakes, taking time to speak in Sacrament meetings explaining the significant hel that is available.  In my opinion, there could be at least 5 to twenty people in every ward who could benefit from this.  But regionally, we see 4 to 5.  You can't blame the Church for that.  Family members have some responsibility to be meek and lowly enough to accept the help, imo.  We need to learn how to encourage that without triggering embarrassment or other non productive emotions.

As usual, you hit this nail squarely on the head. In the Church we have all kinds of resources available to help us, but we seem to be reluctant to tap them and gain the benefits. I wish your message could be broadcast all over... have you considered posting about your experiences on the Church addiction recovery pages?

Edited August 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Meerkat]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:14 AM, stemelbow said:

The Church is really bent in a not true place right now.  That is the stories and history they promote simply aren't true, all too often.  It's far too easy to see it as uninspired when it can't be trusted.  I'm not saying that 14 year olds are necessarily seeing these details, but I think they are feeling it--feeling it from parents, leaders and friends.  So parents, my age, who may have kids are influencing their kids with this idea that life is not black and white.  And that there are useful ideas to consider, useful courses to pursue outside the Church.  The church simply will continue to fail to meet the needs of it's members.  

Stemelbow, I have a different take on it.  The fruits of the Church in the lives of faithful members are, for the most part, wonderful, no matter what time period the study refers to.  Hence, the high percentage of those who remain loyal in every group.  It's remarkable.  Wouldn't you agree?

Consider this:

Before the 1970's, families could generally survive on one income.  Mothers were encouraged to stay home, start their families early and have large families.  They were raised on one income.  We don't hear this encouraged in the Church anymore.  It's more "Prepare.  Get an education.  Circle the wagons because the family is under attack." And it isn't the Church that has caused the breakdown of the family with it's attendant impact on society at large and Church membership.

Due to social engineering, many impactful things happened:

1.  The welfare state grew as government incentivized out of wedlock births.

2.   Easy No Fault divorce caused an ongoing breakdown of the family unit.  The nurturer was taken out of the home to help provide and latchkey kids were left on their own to figure things out.  Promiscuity, drug abuse and now video game and pornography addiction are tearing what remains of families apart.  We've got TROUBLE, right here in River City. 

3.  Life has combined against families these past four decades.  I remember when gasoline was rationed.  The price also went up, putting a financial strain on families, driving Mothers into the workplace too soon for vulnerable children.  Mortgage rates went up.  Down payments were lowered.  Real Estate demand and prices increased putting Real Estate out of reach for many or most families UNLESS Mom left the home to work, leaving children lonely and confused. That's real pressure on marriage and the family.  The divorce rate went from 17% in 1940 to 33% in 1970 to 50% in 2000 to 52% in 2010.  It would be higher today, but many people have given up on marriage in favor of cohabiting.  That isn't the Church's fault.

It's easy to take potshots at the Church for failing to "meet the needs of it's members."  Should the members look at their lives and make adjustments, or is that the Church's responsibility?  The family is the superstructure.  The church is the scaffolding.  I am amazed at the quantity and effectiveness of available Church resources.  It isn't the Church's job to force them upon anyone, in my opinion.   

Thankfully, with the new Teaching in the Savior's Way emphasis, we are learning how to increase our faithfulness so we can call down the powers of Heaven.  That is where our greatest hope lies.  Thankfully, we have a living prophet who is doing a great job, despite all detractors.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Meerkat

[hope_for_things]

8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Actually, I think you are mistaken on this point.  Many leaders do encourage members to receive some excellent help the Church provides.  Addiction recovery, family support groups, LDS Social Services and local counselors are all available and often encouraged and occasionally supported with Fast Offering funds.  The marching orders from above are "Help Them!"  The Church also provides  legal help line for certain issues, and other resources.  The leaders are not oblivious.  Far from it.  They are doing their best to keep up with an avalanche of challenges that have arrived with technology, the breakup of the family and drug addiction.

I see two Church issues that would be helpful to address:

First, bishops and stake presidents do need more than LDS Social Services reps dropping by a packet of pamphlets.  They need eyeball to eyeball training on how to listen to these troubled people, and love them in the direction of available resources.  Such training would take time away from the mountain of their other responsibilities.  In my opinion, many are in a "too busy sawing" state that to take time to sharpen the saw.  Perhaps it would help if they could slow down the train long enough to get the needed training.  Their help would be more effectual, and lighten their load.

Second, family members, who put on their best face at Church, are often too embarrassed or proud to attend the weekly Family Support meeting when they finally realize a family member has a big challenge they are dealing with.  I understand.  We were embarrassed when we learned we had loved ones suffering from addiction.  I attended alone for months before my wife came along.  In the beginning, we came with tears and a broken heart.  Now, we have joy and have learned things that are helping to mend our relationships.  With the Lord's help obtained in those meetings, they are healing.  Maybe new people who attend wonder "How can you be happy with this family tragedy?"  Give it a chance.  You will see.

Illustrative of the pride and embarrassment issues is the wonderful and healing multi-stake family support meeting we attend each week.  It typically has 4 to 5 people in attendance, including the facilitators.  And they, as missionaries, go to the wards and stakes, taking time to speak in Sacrament meetings explaining the significant help that is available.  In my opinion, there could be at least 5 to twenty people in every ward who could benefit from this.  But regionally, we see 4 to 5.  You can't blame the Church for that.  Family members have some responsibility to be meek and lowly enough to accept the help, imo.  We need to learn how to encourage that without triggering embarrassment or other non productive emotions.

I'm really not familiar with the addiction recovery programs, and I'm speaking about crisis of faith issues over learning about church history or struggling with the church's social positions, everything that causes serious questioning of belief in the church.  Are you suggesting that there are resources to assist these people as well?  Is this multi-stake family support meeting a resource for discussing challenges like I'm talking about? 

If so, I'm curious why I've never been referred to any of these resources?  I've been in two stakes in Utah since my faith journey started a little over five years ago and I've engaged my ward and stake leaders in both stakes.  In my current stake, I specifically asked that my concerns over the Nov 2015 policy be sent to and discussed with the presiding GA over our stake, and I was told by my Stake President that my concerns and the letter I wrote were shared and discussed at the GA level.  I've never once been pointed to any support groups or resources that could help me at a local level, and this is not for a lack of asking on my part, I ask for these kind of resources so much that people are sick of me asking. 

 

[jkwilliams]

19 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm really not familiar with the addiction recovery programs, and I'm speaking about crisis of faith issues over learning about church history or struggling with the church's social positions, everything that causes serious questioning of belief in the church.  Are you suggesting that there are resources to assist these people as well?  Is this multi-stake family support meeting a resource for discussing challenges like I'm talking about? 

If so, I'm curious why I've never been referred to any of these resources?  I've been in two stakes in Utah since my faith journey started a little over five years ago and I've engaged my ward and stake leaders in both stakes.  In my current stake, I specifically asked that my concerns over the Nov 2015 policy be sent to and discussed with the presiding GA over our stake, and I was told by my Stake President that my concerns and the letter I wrote were shared and discussed at the GA level.  I've never once been pointed to any support groups or resources that could help me at a local level, and this is not for a lack of asking on my part, I ask for these kind of resources so much that people are sick of me asking. 

It's been 5 years since I last spoke to a leader (my stake president in Utah) about my issues, so I don't know what's changed since then. My impression, which seems to be backed up by your experience, is that leaders are instructed to deal with these issues one on one, but I have no idea what kind of training they receive. When I was desperately trying to work things out, it was clear that my local leaders had no idea what I was talking about and couldn't respond other than to encourage me to pray, read my scriptures, and attend the temple.

[Tacenda]

23 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm really not familiar with the addiction recovery programs, and I'm speaking about crisis of faith issues over learning about church history or struggling with the church's social positions, everything that causes serious questioning of belief in the church.  Are you suggesting that there are resources to assist these people as well?  Is this multi-stake family support meeting a resource for discussing challenges like I'm talking about? 

If so, I'm curious why I've never been referred to any of these resources?  I've been in two stakes in Utah since my faith journey started a little over five years ago and I've engaged my ward and stake leaders in both stakes.  In my current stake, I specifically asked that my concerns over the Nov 2015 policy be sent to and discussed with the presiding GA over our stake, and I was told by my Stake President that my concerns and the letter I wrote were shared and discussed at the GA level.  I've never once been pointed to any support groups or resources that could help me at a local level, and this is not for a lack of asking on my part, I ask for these kind of resources so much that people are sick of me asking. 

 

They are basically putting their hands over their ears and singing a tune, speaking volumes saying they aren't going to listen to you Hope!  It's a very strange phenomenon that happens to TBM's. It also happens when someone quits coming to church as well, or someone that resigns, it's like they are afraid to know the reason. Or they assume it's because people want to sin possibly. They can't phathom that it could be something the church has done wrong. 

 

[jkwilliams]

On 8/4/2018 at 8:55 AM, CV75 said:

That's fine, but it must be recognized that exposure to troubling issues tends to correlate to a growth in faith as well. And to both apathy and concern.

Agreed. It just seems logical to me to note that faith crises tend to correlate to exposure to information that conflicts with what we are taught in church. There is usually a catalyst for faith crises, and from what I've seen, that catalyst is very often such exposure to information.

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

They are basically putting their hands over their ears and singing a tune, speaking volumes saying they aren't going to listen to you Hope!  It's a very strange phenomenon that happens to TBM's. It also happens when someone quits coming to church as well, or someone that resigns, it's like they are afraid to know the reason. Or they assume it's because people want to sin possibly. They can't phathom that it could be something the church has done wrong. 

All of them so far have been pretty kind and empathetic to me personally.  I think this is largely because I'm not coming at them aggressively, I recognize that the problems with the system aren't their fault.  But when I make recommendations from things I hear other wards are doing, or just from ideas that I have, that is when I get crickets for a response.  

Church leaders know about these issues, and have known about them for years, and publishing the essays is not a sufficient response.  

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

They are basically putting their hands over their ears and singing a tune, speaking volumes saying they aren't going to listen to you Hope!  It's a very strange phenomenon that happens to TBM's. It also happens when someone quits coming to church as well, or someone that resigns, it's like they are afraid to know the reason. Or they assume it's because people want to sin possibly. They can't phathom that it could be something the church has done wrong. 

I don't see it that way. I think local leaders just aren't equipped to give answers. They would if they felt they could. I am not surprised that hope_for_things didn't hear back from the GA about his concerns, as in my experience they prefer having local leaders deal with such things. That they haven't suggests that the local leaders don't have any answers.

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't see it that way. I think local leaders just aren't equipped to give answers. They would if they felt they could. I am not surprised that hope_for_things didn't hear back from the GA about his concerns, as in my experience they prefer having local leaders deal with such things. That they haven't suggests that the local leaders don't have any answers.

I guess I'm thinking of what happens in situations that no one asks why they left the church or quit coming, completely silent about it, from people that surround them.

And even these leaders that offer nothing to help those that even ask for it!

In my mind's eye, I see it that they just want these kinds of members to just go away, we're a thorn in their sides at this time. Not that I've ever had enough gumption to ask for a class or a support group yet, just know people on here basically that want it. 

And you're probably right, there are no answers, or at least no good answers because the truth speaks louder, the truth that the church was in the wrong to have withheld history transparency for so long, or the November 2015 policy and it's harmful affects, IMO (we'll see what happens on that one).

 

[Duncan]

19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't see it that way. I think local leaders just aren't equipped to give answers. They would if they felt they could. I am not surprised that hope_for_things didn't hear back from the GA about his concerns, as in my experience they prefer having local leaders deal with such things. That they haven't suggests that the local leaders don't have any answers.

I think you'd get a leadership roulette type of situation, let's face it seeing Truman G. Madsen when he was a BYU Stake President would be a different situation than seeing someone who couldn't care less about these things

[CV75]

39 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Agreed. It just seems logical to me to note that faith crises tend to correlate to exposure to information that conflicts with what we are taught in church. There is usually a catalyst for faith crises, and from what I've seen, that catalyst is very often such exposure to information.

The following was said in a FairMormon conference presentation on this specific topic (there's a thread in the News Forum about it) https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/elder-pearson-independent-voices-needed-sustain-faith :

“Elder Pearson has counseled with members struggling with their faith while serving as a general authority over the past decade. “In virtually every instance it began with an issue or concern about a Church policy, practice, leader or historical question. None of us is immune from this.”

“In fact, he shared his own faith journey when pondering questions about historical and doctrinal issues some years ago. “I have learned the importance of always looking through the lens of faith. I have learned the importance of staying focused on the primary questions and avoiding the distraction of lesser issues and concerns.”

So, I would say that information / intelligence is only the substrate from which faith and doubt, and the resulting faith crises and resolutions are generated (e.g. faith, Romans 10:17; e.g. doubt, Alma 39:11), and that faith is the inhibitor of a crisis reaction, and lack of faith is the catalyst of the crisis reaction.

If anything, getting the best information and intelligence out there, by example and precept is the best way for us to invite and facilitate faith from others. Elder Pearson’s talk is fairly limited in scope, but addresses this narrow point.

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess I'm thinking of what happens in situations that no one asks why they left the church or quit coming, completely silent about it, from people that surround them.

And even these leaders that offer nothing to help those that even ask for it!

In my mind's eye, I see it that they just want these kinds of members to just go away, we're a thorn in their sides at this time. Not that I've ever had enough gumption to ask for a class or a support group yet, just know people on here basically that want it. 

And you're probably right, there are no answers, or at least no good answers because the truth speaks louder, the truth that the church was in the wrong to have withheld history transparency for so long, or the November 2015 policy and it's harmful affects, IMO (we'll see what happens on that one).

I think a lot of people here would disagree that there are no answers. My point is that, in my experience, a lot of local leaders aren't familiar enough with the questions to give answers, so you can ask, ut. Yes, there are plenty of people who make assumptions about us wretched apostates (we wanted to sin, we never had testimonies, yada yada), but in my experience, if people avoid us, it's because they want to help but have no idea what to say. I guess I try to think the best of people rather than the worst. 

[HappyJackWagon]

24 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think you'd get a leadership roulette type of situation, let's face it seeing Truman G. Madsen when he was a BYU Stake President would be a different situation than seeing someone who couldn't care less about these things

He actually was my SP when I was at BYU

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think a lot of people here would disagree that there are no answers. My point is that, in my experience, a lot of local leaders aren't familiar enough with the questions to give answers, so you can ask, ut. Yes, there are plenty of people who make assumptions about us wretched apostates (we wanted to sin, we never had testimonies, yada yada), but in my experience, if people avoid us, it's because they want to help but have no idea what to say. I guess I try to think the best of people rather than the worst. 

bold mine

Good for you JK!  I was definitely in the category of not knowing how to approach someone about them leaving or not coming to church anymore, thanks for the reminder that the people out there don't know what to say or do, but do care. But the leaders should be better trained at being a good shepherd I would think. 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Tacenda

[jkwilliams]

27 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think you'd get a leadership roulette type of situation, let's face it seeing Truman G. Madsen when he was a BYU Stake President would be a different situation than seeing someone who couldn't care less about these things

Yup. About 7 years ago, our stake president in Provo gave a talk about the number of people in the stake who were undergoing faith crises. He encouraged anyone struggling to make an appointment with him, as he felt he could provide good answers. My wife said, "He was talking directly to you." I hadn't thought of taking him up on the offer because I figured I'd pretty much heard every apologetic argument, but I could tell my wife wanted me to talk to him, so I did. He basically said that he believed because he had a testimony, and if he hadn't had a testimony, he would have concluded the church was a "second-rate 19th-century hoax." But he did give me a list of names of people to contact. I emailed them and got links to apologetic stuff I'd already read, but I did have a really pleasant conversation with Spencer Fluhman over pho. 

But that stake president is the only local leader I've met who was familiar with the issues. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

bold mine

Good for you JK!  I was definitely in the category of not knowing how to approach someone about them leaving or not coming to church anymore, thanks for the reminder that the people out there don't know what to say or do, but do care. But the leaders should be better trained at being a good shepherd I would think. 

I discovered during my own period in the wilderness that what I was interpreting as "shunning" was just some people being at a loss as to what to say to me. They wanted to help, but they didn't know how, and they were afraid that they might make things worse by reaching out to me. So, they just stayed away. Yes, there were some people who went out of their way to be judgmental and unkind, such as a bishop in Provo, but most people weren't that way. 

My advice to believing members when they see friends, ward members, or family going through a faith crisis is to just put your arm around them and show your love without being judgmental. A few people did that for me, and it made all the difference.

[blueglass]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm really not familiar with the addiction recovery programs, and I'm speaking about crisis of faith issues over learning about church history or struggling with the church's social positions, everything that causes serious questioning of belief in the church.  Are you suggesting that there are resources to assist these people as well?  Is this multi-stake family support meeting a resource for discussing challenges like I'm talking about? 

If so, I'm curious why I've never been referred to any of these resources?  I've been in two stakes in Utah since my faith journey started a little over five years ago and I've engaged my ward and stake leaders in both stakes.  In my current stake, I specifically asked that my concerns over the Nov 2015 policy be sent to and discussed with the presiding GA over our stake, and I was told by my Stake President that my concerns and the letter I wrote were shared and discussed at the GA level.  I've never once been pointed to any support groups or resources that could help me at a local level, and this is not for a lack of asking on my part, I ask for these kind of resources so much that people are sick of me asking. 

 

As far as I know right now there is no encouragement from an official communication for church leaders to learn about the essays "like the back of their hand" as Ballard advised CES teachers.  Just the word "essays" gives it a spooky feel of interest to academics, "not pertinent to my salvation".  As Emily Harris said in her MS interview when asking her bishop about "essays", "Why would I read the essays if they could damage my faith?" 

[blueglass]

28 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

He actually was my SP when I was at BYU

I sent him (Madsen) a question after reading rough stone rolling about material from his Joseph Smith tapes.  He sent me a response via email.  This was a few years before he passed on.  his paper "Are Christians Mormon" from 1975 is a classic. 

[ksfisher]

29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My advice to believing members when they see friends, ward members, or family going through a faith crisis is to just put your arm around them and show your love without being judgmental.

This works for some people.  With others they seem to interpret any outreach by ward members as them being a "project."  It's difficult to know what to do and not make the situation worse.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

This works for some people.  With others they seem to interpret any outreach by ward members as them being a "project."  It's difficult to know what to do and not make the situation worse.

Oh, I've been the ward project. I was talking about people who have been your friend and how sometimes it's easy to withdraw. If a friend reaches out, it's less likely to be a "project" than if a relative stranger does it. 

[mnn727]

On 8/2/2018 at 11:35 AM, stemelbow said:

The biggest problem with Elder Cook's comment is how could the number of members removing names possibly be significantly less in recent years than past years?  I could buy it if we are talking as a percentage of the whole.  

 

If one takes the number of members year over year, number of converts and number of COR, add and subtract to find the difference, the biggest difference on record, that is the most members lost over a year's time, was from 2013-2014.  

 

 

You failed to account for Deaths.