Are More People Leaving the Church: Study

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, blueglass said:

What about the gospel library app, lds tools?  We saw some weird things in the user agreement for the seminary app they were asking our daughter to install.  We turned down the agreement, and had to register for seminary via paper, and track attendance and other things by email.  

I have no idea. Heck, I have the gospel library app on my phone, so I'm sure they know what I'm up to when I'm there. 

[clarkgoble]

18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that church wifi was blocked during meetings, but I could be wrong. But yes, if you're using someone's wifi, they can find out what sites you've visited.

Nope. In fact it's so heavily used some people that it may appear like it's blocked because all the channels are full. They do block some ports and some sites, including Twitter.

3 minutes ago, blueglass said:

What about the gospel library app, lds tools?  We saw some weird things in the user agreement for the seminary app they were asking our daughter to install.  We turned down the agreement, and had to register for seminary via paper, and track attendance and other things by email.  

On iOS they can't access anything. Android is different although it does prompt but I can't see them doing that.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, clarkgoble said:

Nope. In fact it's so heavily used some people that it may appear like it's blocked because all the channels are full. They do block some ports and some sites, including Twitter.

Thanks for the clarification. When I go to church, I'm usually pretty engaged in the meetings, so I'm never on my phone (except to look up scriptures). Of course, my wife would kill me if I was surfing the web during church.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

My guess is that people in places like Asia, Africa, and Latin America have less access to the information that is prompting people in North America and Europe to have faith crises. So, I'm pretty sure you're right about the dynamics in those parts of the world.

I was talking to a friend yesterday, who lives in the Midwest, who said one of the young men he had as YM president years ago is now in his thirties and is on his way out of the church. This young man had contacted my friend for advice as to how to leave the church without doing too much damage to his family relationships, so my friend referred him to my "Expert Ex-Mormon" piece from several years ago. He said that he knows a lot of people in his stake who are closet unbelievers, including his elders quorum president and a member of their high council, and he estimated that for every openly unbelieving person, there are 3 closet unbelievers. My friend was invited last week to a gathering for ex-Mormons, and though he normally stays away from such stuff, he went to support the young man he knew. He said that there were about 40 people at the gathering, and they all said the same thing about closet unbelievers. I certainly have met my share of such people, as they tend to open up to me when they realize I'm a safe person to talk to, though I couldn't possibly estimate the number of closet unbelievers.

Obviously, this is just anecdotal evidence, so it's not something that can be extrapolated to the church as a whole, but I think there are at least as many unbelievers still participating in the church as there are people who formally remove their names. 

As I pointed out, the OP is US-centric in its focus and Elder Cook’s talk is global. Your anecdote fits with the former.

Given that less access to information is typically a disadvantage in general, “[more] access to information” creates as much a problem when it is not used well (3 Nephi 6:12*, 2 Nephi 9: 28-29**). Of course both the informed and less-informed can still hearken to the counsels of God through various means and thus develop charity and wisdom by living their religion. In that sense we are all on an even playing field. The Book of Mormon is good at advising us about human nature.

* And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches.

** O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, CV75 said:

As I pointed out, the OP is US-centric in its focus and Elder Cook’s talk is global. Your anecdote fits with the former.

Given that less access to information is typically a disadvantage in general, “[more] access to information” creates as much a problem when it is not used well (3 Nephi 6:12*, 2 Nephi 9: 28-29**). Of course both the informed and less-informed can still hearken to the counsels of God through various means and thus develop charity and wisdom by living their religion. In that sense we are all on an even playing field. The Book of Mormon is good at advising us about human nature.

* And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches.

** O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

I agreed with your assessment that the OP is US-centric, which makes sense because most of the posters here are North Americans. I don't think it's fair to suggest that everyone who leaves the church over the clear issues is guilty of pride (thinking they are wise) and not listening to the counsel of God. Some of us received clear answers to our prayers.

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I agreed with your assessment that the OP is US-centric, which makes sense because most of the posters here are North Americans. I don't think it's fair to suggest that everyone who leaves the church over the clear issues is guilty of pride (thinking they are wise) and not listening to the counsel of God. Some of us received clear answers to our prayers.

By "OP" I was referring to the information in the Opening Post, not the indiidual who posted it or the participants in this thread.

I'm not saying people who leave the Church are guilty of pride. I'm saying that where people have more access to information they have more opportunity to unwisely misuse it as well, which undermines faith. The counsel given in the Book of Mormon is to take heed of that vulnerability and balance an increase in opportunities for information and learning with faithfulness. People who abandon their faith over information have simply placed that over faith. People with the same information stay as well. Not judging; it's just how the equation works.

I think people who find themselves stuck with more information than they can handle faithfully need to remember what they know about their faith, assuming they have enough of that kind of knowledge as well. And sometimes it's not about information alone; that is the focus area you brought up. It's often much more complicated than that.

Edited August 3, 2018 by CV75

[jkwilliams]

Just now, CV75 said:

By "OP" I was referring to the information in the Opening Post, not the indiidual who posted it or the participants in this thread.

I understand that and was agreeing with you. I don't see anywhere that I was referring to any posters as to the validity of the OP, just noting it shouldn't surprise us to see such a post on board that is largely North America-centric.

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've had personal interaction with him in a church leadership meeting in which he was rude, dismissive, inaccurate in his statements despite his lawyerly attempts to obfuscate a very reasonable question. Throughout the entire meeting he came off as more of a politician than a man of God. I was as TBM to the max at the time but I was heartbroken. Devastated. I couldn't even stand to stay for my next meeting. Maybe he was just having a bad day. But even when I have a bad day, I still don't treat people the way he did. I saw nothing godly in him. 

The odds are pretty good that anyone can and will have a bad day. However, this part of your post made me revisit a very painful experience I had with a general authority (an apostle) while I was in the MTC. His behavior was so negative and self absorbed that in my eyes, he fell from the pedestal fast and hard. I could never look at him or listen to him again and think of him as godly. I think general authorities need to keep it together at all times when speaking to members and if they are feeling too poorly or too negative, they need to call in sick. Its a tall order, yes, but they are special witnesses of Christ. I don't know if a select few even realize the power of their words and actions and I think that every time they speak in public they should do so as if they are speaking in General Conference (very carefully). Sorry for the OT post, but this dredged up a bad memory for me.   (I think most of the general authorities are great and very classy, but I've seen a few bad apples)

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I understand that and was agreeing with you. I don't see anywhere that I was referring to any posters as to the validity of the OP, just noting it shouldn't surprise us to see such a post on board that is largely North America-centric.

Well, when you say something like, "I agreed with your assessment that the OP is US-centric, which makes sense because most of the posters here are North Americans," you are referring to the poster(s). The OP is Us-centric because that is the scope of the research. Elder Cook's talk is referred to as well, and his reference point is not US-centric but global, which makes sense because it was referred to irrespective of the nationality of the posters here.

I see no conflict between these and Elder Cook's talk (as some have suggested), because they are apples and oranges. That doesn't invalidate the survey and studies in the OP.

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Well, when you say something like, "I agreed with your assessment that the OP is US-centric, which makes sense because most of the posters here are North Americans," you are referring to the poster(s). The OP is Us-centric because that is the scope of the research. Elder Cook's talk is referred to as well, and his reference point is not US-centric but global, which makes sense because it was referred to irrespective of the nationality of the posters here.

I see no conflict between these and Elder Cook's talk (as some have suggested), because they are apples and oranges. That doesn't invalidate the survey and studies in the OP.

I guess I don't understand your point. I'm not disputing your (and apparently Elder Cook's) point, just noting that it's difficult to extrapolate from North American data to a worldwide church. I'm not sure why you think I am validating one over the other. 

[Bernard Gui]

Elde Maxwell continued....

Quote

Your discipleship may see the time come when religious convictions are heavily discounted. M. J. Sobran also observed, “A religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it” (Human Life Review, Summer 1978, p. 58). This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people’s opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

In its mildest form, irreligion will merely be condescending toward those who hold to traditional Judeo-Christian values. In its more harsh forms, as is always the case with those whose dogmatism is blinding, the secular church will do what it can to reduce the influence of those who still worry over standards such as those in the Ten Commandments. It is always such an easy step from dogmatism to unfair play—especially so when the dogmatists believe themselves to be dealing with primitive people who do not know what is best for them. It is the secular bureaucrat’s burden, you see.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I agreed with your assessment that the OP is US-centric, which makes sense because most of the posters here are North Americans. I don't think it's fair to suggest that everyone who leaves the church over the clear issues is guilty of pride (thinking they are wise) and not listening to the counsel of God. Some of us received clear answers to our prayers.

How true.  Pride...I had to kneel down many times during the year before my resignation to make sure..on my part that I was NOT succumbing to the evil one.  The tears then were just as humble as the testimony I had received.  Things like this are a journey for the individual...not a group..so sometimes you do it alone  I wish that I could explain this better but sometimes pride has nothing to do with anything..especially if it is a certain peace and knowledge you are seeking.

[blueglass]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 the secular church will do what it can to reduce the influence of those who still worry over standards such as those in the Ten Commandments

What do you think of these new 10 commandments designed by secular atheists?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/the-new-ten-commandments/

First Commandment: Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.

Second Commandment: In all things, strive to cause no harm.

Third Commandment: Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.

Fourth Commandment: Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted

Fifth Commandment: Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.

Sixth Commandment: Always seek to be learning something new.

Seventh Commandment: Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.

Eighth Commandment: Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.

Ninth Commandment: Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.

Tenth Commandment: Question everything.

[blueglass]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. 

Secular pro-life group claims 12.8M adherents

https://www.secularprolife.org/

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My guess is that people in places like Asia, Africa, and Latin America have less access to the information that is prompting people in North America and Europe to have faith crises. So, I'm pretty sure you're right about the dynamics in those parts of the world.

I was talking to a friend yesterday, who lives in the Midwest, who said one of the young men he had as YM president years ago is now in his thirties and is on his way out of the church. This young man had contacted my friend for advice as to how to leave the church without doing too much damage to his family relationships, so my friend referred him to my "Expert Ex-Mormon" piece from several years ago. He said that he knows a lot of people in his stake who are closet unbelievers, including his elders quorum president and a member of their high council, and he estimated that for every openly unbelieving person, there are 3 closet unbelievers. My friend was invited last week to a gathering for ex-Mormons, and though he normally stays away from such stuff, he went to support the young man he knew. He said that there were about 40 people at the gathering, and they all said the same thing about closet unbelievers. I certainly have met my share of such people, as they tend to open up to me when they realize I'm a safe person to talk to, though I couldn't possibly estimate the number of closet unbelievers.

Obviously, this is just anecdotal evidence, so it's not something that can be extrapolated to the church as a whole, but I think there are at least as many unbelievers still participating in the church as there are people who formally remove their names. 

We should not be surprised. Jesus understood this and gave a parable to explain. The parable of the sower is about the membership of the Church (those who receive the seed).

Quote

Matt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Also, in the vision of the Tree of Life, Lehi and Nephi saw those who joined the Church and what would happen when they found themselves on the path to the Tree of Life.

Quote

1Nephi 8:19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.
20 And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.
21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

Things happen to all of us. We are free to choose the path we take. 

[blueglass]

2 hours ago, Nevo said:

Fully half of the adults in our ward are single. Most of the women are active; most of the men aren't.

What if we sent a survey to the men who are not active?  A few years back before speaking at a singles ward I read through this book by Kinnaman, "You lost me" https://www.amazon.com/You-Lost-Me-Christians-Rethinking/dp/0801015898

He goes through millenial exodus from christianity and classifies three paths, "nomads", "exiles" and "prodigals" and most effective efforts of reaching out to them.  

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, blueglass said:

What do you think of these new 10 commandments designed by secular atheists?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/the-new-ten-commandments/

First Commandment: Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.

Second Commandment: In all things, strive to cause no harm.

Third Commandment: Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.

Fourth Commandment: Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted

Fifth Commandment: Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.

Sixth Commandment: Always seek to be learning something new.

Seventh Commandment: Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.

Eighth Commandment: Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.

Ninth Commandment: Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.

Tenth Commandment: Question everything.

Wonderful. Most can be found within the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the precepts taught by the major religions. We would all be better if we lived them. The irony is that this authoritatively presents moral imperative while at the same time it rejects the concepts of authority and moral imperatives.

Some sound like the internet memes that have a photo of a butterfly on a flower or a child on the beach. Nice sentiment, but what does it mean? What are the facts in Comment 7? Not many keep the Eighth Commandment any more. 

I question Commandment 10.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, blueglass said:

Secular pro-life group claims 12.8M adherents

https://www.secularprolife.org/

I applaud their efforts; however, I think you are misreading their membership numbers. 

Quote

There are 12.8 million non-religious pro-lifers in the United States.....As of 2017, there were 55.8 million Americans with no religious affiliation. The Pew Research Center Forum on Religion and Public Life reports that among the unaffiliated, 23% say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases. 55.8 million times 0.23 is 12.8 million.

That's their estimation of the number of non-religion-affiliated people who oppose abortion. People can be religious but not be affiliated with an organized religions. The number of their membership is less.

Quote

When Secular Pro-Life first got started in 2009, it consisted of little more than a 19-year-old with an ambitious idea. Today, Secular Pro-Life has thousands of members across the United States and around the world. 

Their Facebook page has about 21,000 followers. Whatever the numbers or however they arrived at their moral position, I'm glad they oppose abortion. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, blueglass said:

What do you think of these new 10 commandments designed by secular atheists?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/the-new-ten-commandments/

First Commandment: Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.

Second Commandment: In all things, strive to cause no harm.

Third Commandment: Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.

Fourth Commandment: Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted

Fifth Commandment: Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.

Sixth Commandment: Always seek to be learning something new.

Seventh Commandment: Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.

Eighth Commandment: Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.

Ninth Commandment: Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.

Tenth Commandment: Question everything.

These are nice things but there is one problem.  The 10 commandments according to Jews, LDS and other Christians is that they are accountable to God for keeping them.  Without accountability, what really is the incentive to even try to follow most or all of them since if one does not follow all or any of them, so what.   Without real accountability and judgement, there are not as much commandments as suggestions.

Edited August 3, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[CV75]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I guess I don't understand your point. I'm not disputing your (and apparently Elder Cook's) point, just noting that it's difficult to extrapolate from North American data to a worldwide church. I'm not sure why you think I am validating one over the other. 

My point, in this narrow, specific instance, is that you concluded that it makes sense that the OP is US-centric because most of the posters here are North Americans. But that would have been the case no matter where the posters are from. Such is the narrow scope of the research, having nothing to do with the posters on this thread or their origins.

Now my broader point is to challenge your point that saints in Asia and Africa aren’t having the same issues extrapolated from the OP merely because they have less access to the same information you say is prompting people in North America and Europe to have faith crises. My point is about the application of faith, no matter how much (or how little) information one has. Each hearer of the word can possess the baseline information (which I see as the doctrine and the ordinances) introduced to us by the Doctrine and Gospel of Christ. In this way we all have the same “chances for learning” and “counsels of God.”

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

My point, in this narrow, specific instance, is that you concluded that it makes sense that the OP is US-centric because most of the posters here are North Americans. But that would have been the case no matter where the posters are from. Such is the narrow scope of the research, having nothing to do with the posters on this thread or their origins.

Now my broader point is to challenge your point that saints in Asia and Africa aren’t having the same issues extrapolated from the OP merely because they have less access to the same information you say is prompting people in North America and Europe to have faith crises. My point is about the application of faith, no matter how much (or how little) information one has. Each hearer of the word can possess the baseline information (which I see as the doctrine and the ordinances) introduced to us by the Doctrine and Gospel of Christ. In this way we all have the same “chances for learning” and “counsels of God.”

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. I stand by my point that exposure to troubling issues tends to correlate to faith crises. 

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying. I stand by my point that exposure to troubling issues tends to correlate to faith crises. 

Exposure to pathogens tends to be correlate with more illness.  The problem is not exposure but how one deals with it.  If one chooses to let the troubling issues overwhelm them and beat them down, then a "faith crisis" is more likely to emerge.  If one takes a more measured approach and not expect or demand answers to everything, it is possible to avoid such a crisis and actually have ones faith make stronger. 

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Exposure to pathogens tends to be correlate with more illness.  The problem is not exposure but how one deals with it.  If one chooses to let the troubling issues overwhelm them and beat them down, then a "faith crisis" is more likely to emerge.  If one takes a more measured approach and not expect or demand answers to everything, it is possible to avoid such a crisis and actually have ones faith make stronger. 

Not arguing with you. My point is that faith crises don’t happen in a vacuum, just as illness often requires exposure to pathogens. 

ETA: You seem to be saying that a faith crisis is the same as loss of faith, which is clearly not the case. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by jkwilliams

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Not arguing with you. My point is that faith crises don’t happen in a vacuum, just as illness often requires exposure to pathogens. 

ETA: You seem to be saying that a faith crisis is the same as loss of faith, which is clearly not the case. 

No I do not associate "faith crisis" with "loss of faith."  To get back to the disease analogy a faith crisis is like being sick. One can get better or worse.  Loss of faith is more like death.  

The real point I wanted to draw on but my ADHD son was bugging me to go to Gamestop and so I could not get my thoughts complete is that exposure to troubling issues can lead to faith issues like you said in a vacuum but it does not have to be the case.  I believe exposure to these things can be a positive thing.  Like a parent who allows their kids to go out and play in dirt.  Too often the Church treats the members like a parent who treats their child in a way that they purposely keep them from getting dirty.  They try to keep things as sterile as possible so they don't get sick.  Not only does this not work but if anything it can be more harmful the the child in the long run.    In both cases they might have good intentions but the results do not work out well.  The Church needs to allow the members to get "dirty" by exposing them to this stuff.  Not all at once but by raising members to learn how to deal with issues, search for answers, ect it will help the members more in the long run. Dealing with troubling issues can be handled better if one has experience in dealing with them.  For many members, they don';t have that experience so they might feel overwhelmed by issues with little place to turn.  Sort of expecting a person to go on a 50 mile bike ride after years of sitting on the couch.  Better to prepare for the 50 mile ride first by taking a bunch of shorter bike rides of 2 or 3 miles and work up. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Dealing with troubling issues can be handled better if one has experience in dealing with them. For many members, they don';t have that experience so they might feel overwhelmed by issues with little place to turn. 

This has been our experience with family support for the addiction recovery program. So many of us avoid conflict at all costs, try to insulate each other from adversity, and expect everything to be perfect if we just do the family prayers, scripture study, attend meetings, go to the temple, etc. But when something goes sideways such as a loved one choosing poorly and going into addiction, self-destruction, and family disruptions. we aren’t equipped to deal with the chaos that ensues. Doing those spiritual things is critical, but we should also be prepared for the Lamans, Lemuels, Almas, and Coriantons who come into our lives.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Bernard Gui