Are More People Leaving the Church: Study

[CV75]

9 hours ago, kllindley said:

I can't help but wonder how much of this is US versus international dynamics. 

Your Utah experiences certainly don't convince me that the data and experiences in Asia and Africa are wrong. 

Amen! Posted 10 hours ago

[blueglass]

8 hours ago, Nevo said:

From where I sit, I'm not seeing much of an exodus. Over the past five years exactly two families in my ward have stopped attending church over historical/doctrinal issues. Since 2014 there has been a slight decline in the percentage of endowed members with recommends but no dramatic change.

Currently, 100 out of 178 endowed adults in our ward hold temple recommends. All things considered, I think that's still pretty high (especially since we're in one of the more godless regions of Canada). Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence...

Thanks for sharing.  How are the youth, single adults, prospective elders doing?  

[HappyJackWagon]

10 hours ago, kllindley said:

I can't help but wonder how much of this is US versus international dynamics. 

Your Utah experiences certainly don't convince me that the data and experiences in Asia and Africa are wrong. 

I can understand why you would hope that.

In any case, it seems clear to me that Elder Cooks primary purpose in making his statements was to fortify the illusion that All is well in Zion. Nothing to worry about folks. I simply don't think that is the case and I think he knows it.

ETA- I admit I'm not an Elder Cook fan. I don't trust him. I've had personal interaction with him in a church leadership meeting in which he was rude, dismissive, inaccurate in his statements despite his lawyerly attempts to obfuscate a very reasonable question. Throughout the entire meeting he came off as more of a politician than a man of God. I was as TBM to the max at the time but I was heartbroken. Devastated. I couldn't even stand to stay for my next meeting. Maybe he was just having a bad day. But even when I have a bad day, I still don't treat people the way he did. I saw nothing godly in him. So yeah, I'm naturally skeptical of anything he says, especially when it seems counter to common sense.

Edited August 3, 2018 by HappyJackWagon

[blueglass]

22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

As for church leaders not getting training and resources to help those with faith crisis, this has been one of my biggest concerns and complaints in recent years.  I've met with a number of leaders in my ward and stake on this topic directly, asking for them to address this concern at a local level, expressing how isolating and difficult a faith crisis is to go through, and offering my services to help support people in need.  But unfortunately, I haven't had success getting engagement.  I get empathy from the leaders, but at the end of the day, I don't think they dare take initiative without marching orders from above.  I think they are more fearful of spreading the disease, than they are willing to make any substantive attempts to help.  

One experience I had a number of years ago, bishopric received a letter from a member who wanted to resign.  The letter and information was treated like a monster's inc hazard alert 2319.  There was certainly fear on how to deal with the member, and a degree of disdain - "fine if that's how she/he feels about it let's get the name removal process going".  Less about pastoral care to listen and try to respond to the concerns in the letter.  I suppose it could go both ways, in which some do not want to have to talk to a leader about it they already don't trust and just processing quickly would be best.  Our stake leaders felt differently, they wanted a lot of intervention to interview, and respond.  Warning were given about how the spirit would go completely dark, and the artificial happiness this person and family was portraying was fake.  This was a talk at ward conference, so it was a downer to end the meeting. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by blueglass

[blueglass]

21 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I can understand why you would hope that.

In any case, it seems clear to me that Elder Cooks primary purpose in making his statements was to fortify the illusion that All is well in Zion. Nothing to worry about folks. I simply don't think that is the case and I think he knows it.

ETA- I admit I'm not an Elder Cook fan. I don't trust him. I've had personal interaction with him in a church leadership meeting in which he was rude, dismissive, inaccurate in his statements despite his lawyerly attempts to obfuscate a very reasonable question. Throughout the entire meeting he came off as more of a politician than a man of God. I was as TBM to the max at the time but I was heartbroken. Devastated. I couldn't even stand to stay for my next meeting. Maybe he was just having a bad day. But even when I have a bad day, I still don't treat people the way he did. I saw nothing godly in him. So yeah, I'm naturally skeptical of anything he says, especially when it seems counter to common sense.

Did anyone here know him or interact with Elder Cook when he orchestrated the church efforts on prop 8 in CA?   I think it was his first major assignment as a new member of the quorum of 12. 

 

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Amen! Posted 10 hours ago

My guess is that people in places like Asia, Africa, and Latin America have less access to the information that is prompting people in North America and Europe to have faith crises. So, I'm pretty sure you're right about the dynamics in those parts of the world.

I was talking to a friend yesterday, who lives in the Midwest, who said one of the young men he had as YM president years ago is now in his thirties and is on his way out of the church. This young man had contacted my friend for advice as to how to leave the church without doing too much damage to his family relationships, so my friend referred him to my "Expert Ex-Mormon" piece from several years ago. He said that he knows a lot of people in his stake who are closet unbelievers, including his elders quorum president and a member of their high council, and he estimated that for every openly unbelieving person, there are 3 closet unbelievers. My friend was invited last week to a gathering for ex-Mormons, and though he normally stays away from such stuff, he went to support the young man he knew. He said that there were about 40 people at the gathering, and they all said the same thing about closet unbelievers. I certainly have met my share of such people, as they tend to open up to me when they realize I'm a safe person to talk to, though I couldn't possibly estimate the number of closet unbelievers.

Obviously, this is just anecdotal evidence, so it's not something that can be extrapolated to the church as a whole, but I think there are at least as many unbelievers still participating in the church as there are people who formally remove their names. 

[jkwilliams]

34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I can understand why you would hope that.

In any case, it seems clear to me that Elder Cooks primary purpose in making his statements was to fortify the illusion that All is well in Zion. Nothing to worry about folks. I simply don't think that is the case and I think he knows it.

ETA- I admit I'm not an Elder Cook fan. I don't trust him. I've had personal interaction with him in a church leadership meeting in which he was rude, dismissive, inaccurate in his statements despite his lawyerly attempts to obfuscate a very reasonable question. Throughout the entire meeting he came off as more of a politician than a man of God. I was as TBM to the max at the time but I was heartbroken. Devastated. I couldn't even stand to stay for my next meeting. Maybe he was just having a bad day. But even when I have a bad day, I still don't treat people the way he did. I saw nothing godly in him. So yeah, I'm naturally skeptical of anything he says, especially when it seems counter to common sense.

I don't know much about Elder Cook, but his behavior as attorney for a hospital system give me pause.

http://www.smartvoter.org/2000/11/07/ca/mrn/vote/severinghaus_j/paper2.html

[Nevo]

16 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Thanks for sharing.  How are the youth, single adults, prospective elders doing?  

Here's the graph for YM/YW attendance (red line is YW, purple line is YM):

There are 95 prospective elders out of 186 adult males. Most of those haven't been to church in decades. At least three are genuine "prospective elders": two recent converts and a man who recently returned to activity. All of them have callings and have been attending regularly for several months. Another convert who was baptized last summer was ordained an elder last month.

Fully half of the adults in our ward are single. Most of the women are active; most of the men aren't.

[hope_for_things]

19 minutes ago, blueglass said:

One experience I had a number of years ago, bishopric received a letter from a member who wanted to resign.  The letter and information was treated like a monster's inc hazard alert 2319.  There was certainly fear on how to deal with the member, and a degree of disdain - "fine if that's how she/he feels about it let's get the name removal process going".  Less about pastoral care to listen and try to respond to the concerns in the letter.  I suppose it could go both ways, in which some do not want to have to talk to a leader about it they already don't trust and just processing quickly would be best.  Our stake leaders felt differently, they wanted a lot of intervention to interview, and respond.  Warning were given about how the spirit would go completely dark, and the artificial happiness this person and family was portraying was fake.  This was a talk at ward conference, so it was a downer to end the meeting. 

I have this strange vision that has been developing in my head for the last few years.  Its odd, and I don't feel like I'm the right person to take a leadership role in making this vision real at all, I'm not nearly courageous and outgoing enough.  But my vision includes walking the streets of Utah and getting in contact with everyone and trying to get to know their story, what brought them to Utah, how they've been impacted by the dominant Mormon culture here, finding out how their lives have been impacted by Mormonism, good and bad, and then just listening and loving and supporting them.  At the end of these conversations, I'd like to bring everyone together, honor their journey and make everyone feel a part of a larger group. 

Mormonism is amazing, I think I'll always love and appreciate my pioneer heritage and my Mormon upbringing.  I'd love to get the community more united by considering everyone in our midst part of that broader community.  

[FearlessFixxer]

I don't know the rate of people leaving but I can offer some additional anectdotal evidence of closet non-believers.

I have several COB employee sources I that communicate with regularly....some very high up.  I also have several former employee sources who spent entire careers there.

Every single one of them tell me they know tons of people faking it there are there is a whole bunch of winking and nodding going on in the hallways among those that know of each other.

Edited August 3, 2018 by FearlessFixxer

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Nevo said:

Here's the graph for YM/YW attendance (red line is YW, purple line is YM):

There are 95 prospective elders out of 186 adult males. Most of those haven't been to church in decades. At least three are genuine "prospective elders": two recent converts and a man who recently returned to activity. All of them have callings and have been attending regularly for several months. Another convert who was baptized last summer was ordained an elder last month.

Fully half of the adults in our ward are single. Most of the women are active; most of the men aren't.

Just out of curiosity, do you think there are any closet unbelievers in your ward? Well, other than you (just kidding). 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, FearlessFixxer said:

I don't know the rate of people leaving but I can offer some additional anectdotal evidence of closet non-believers.

I have several COB employee sources that communicate with regularly....some very high up.  I also have several former employee sources who spent entire careers there.

Every single one of them tell me they know tons of people faking it there are there is a while bunch of winking and nodding going on in the hallways among those that know of each other.

I made friends with a guy in College Station, Texas, who was in grad school at the time. My girls babysat their kids, and we went out to dinner with him and his wife a few times. After we moved to Utah, I ran into him at a barbecue for exmos that I'd been invited to. We had been socializing in Texas for 3 years, and neither one of us knew that the other was an unbeliever. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I have this strange vision that has been developing in my head for the last few years.  Its odd, and I don't feel like I'm the right person to take a leadership role in making this vision real at all, I'm not nearly courageous and outgoing enough.  But my vision includes walking the streets of Utah and getting in contact with everyone and trying to get to know their story, what brought them to Utah, how they've been impacted by the dominant Mormon culture here, finding out how their lives have been impacted by Mormonism, good and bad, and then just listening and loving and supporting them.  At the end of these conversations, I'd like to bring everyone together, honor their journey and make everyone feel a part of a larger group. 

Mormonism is amazing, I think I'll always love and appreciate my pioneer heritage and my Mormon upbringing.  I'd love to get the community more united by considering everyone in our midst part of that broader community.  

Agreed. There is a lot of good in the church, and I have nothing but honor and respect for my LDS pioneer ancestors and my living LDS relatives. 

[Nevo]

15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Just out of curiosity, do you think there are any closet unbelievers in your ward? Well, other than you (just kidding). 

I expect there are. None have confided in me, though.

BTW, I think of myself as more of a doubter than an unbeliever. I am skeptical of Book of Mormon historicity, which is a big problem to have, but I am otherwise pretty believing when it comes to priesthood authority, ordinances, etc.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Nevo said:

I expect there are. None have confided in me, though.

BTW, I think of myself as more of a doubter than an unbeliever. I am skeptical of Book of Mormon historicity, which is a big problem to have, but I am otherwise pretty believing when it comes to priesthood authority, ordinances, etc.

I know. I was just teasing you. What I've found in every ward I've been in is that people keep their unbelief close to the vest unless they find someone like me who they feel they can open up to. I'm always happy to listen, but I almost never give advice beyond telling people they should do what they feel is right and put their family relationships first. 

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My guess is that people in places like Asia, Africa, and Latin America have less access to the information that is prompting people in North America and Europe to have faith crises. So, I'm pretty sure you're right about the dynamics in those parts of the world.

I was talking to a friend yesterday, who lives in the Midwest, who said one of the young men he had as YM president years ago is now in his thirties and is on his way out of the church. This young man had contacted my friend for advice as to how to leave the church without doing too much damage to his family relationships, so my friend referred him to my "Expert Ex-Mormon" piece from several years ago. He said that he knows a lot of people in his stake who are closet unbelievers, including his elders quorum president and a member of their high council, and he estimated that for every openly unbelieving person, there are 3 closet unbelievers. My friend was invited last week to a gathering for ex-Mormons, and though he normally stays away from such stuff, he went to support the young man he knew. He said that there were about 40 people at the gathering, and they all said the same thing about closet unbelievers. I certainly have met my share of such people, as they tend to open up to me when they realize I'm a safe person to talk to, though I couldn't possibly estimate the number of closet unbelievers.

Obviously, this is just anecdotal evidence, so it's not something that can be extrapolated to the church as a whole, but I think there are at least as many unbelievers still participating in the church as there are people who formally remove their names. 

My husband and I have a close friend that we would never think could be in the closet with belief issues. In fact it was while on vacation several years ago with he and his wife that the show "Heart of the Matter" with Shawn McCraney came on the TV and I had never heard of it before. He told us he watched it a couple of times. A funny thing...after he told me about the show I started watching and on one of the shows our friend was a call-in and had a question for Shawn, he didn't seem anti, more like an apologist, so who knows. Although he has brought some stuff up about church history to my husband. He and his wife don't know the extent of my doubts, they are still very active but his calling is a good one, he is in the Nursery. So I totally believe there are many that have had their testimonies turned upside down.

Another friend of ours went to Dallas, TX recently to see her new baby grandson. And her son, who is a good friend of my son, both went on missions etc. but her son married in the temple. While visiting her son and daughter in law he came out carrying a cup of coffee and had a new tattoo on his wrist. It totally devasted my friend or I should say, old neighbor because we just go to dinner now and then. If this wasn't bad enough, several years ago her brother found out things about the church and became anti, in fact both her sister and brother became anti. She was also my visiting teacher at the time. And I remember her telling me about them and then soon after her brother took his life. I guess he totally went down-hill afterward and starting drinking heavily, he just couldn't handle the disbelief since his parents were devastated about it. I believe she may see her own son turning into how her brother was, perhaps. I know this would sound odd with non members, but to a stalwart LDS like my old neighbor, it's pretty heart breaking because it means her son isn't following the WoW and won't be able to renew their temple recommend. Very devasting to a family, too bad some things in our church has to come in-between like that. 

 

[blueglass]

38 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

I don't know the rate of people leaving but I can offer some additional anectdotal evidence of closet non-believers.

I have several COB employee sources I that communicate with regularly....some very high up.  I also have several former employee sources who spent entire careers there.

Every single one of them tell me they know tons of people faking it there are there is a whole bunch of winking and nodding going on in the hallways among those that know of each other.

Do you think one reason the church provides free wifi at the chapels is to log the websites visited?  Does anyone know if the "gospel library" app can pull search strings entered in google and send to the COB IT guys?   The reason I ask is we attended a stake high council meeting and a member of the stake presidency said they met with the regional stake council, and the area authority seventy listed off the top 10 websites visited by members while sitting in the pews.  He was really put off by the list. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My husband and I have a close friend that we would never think could be in the closet with belief issues. In fact it was while on vacation several years ago with he and his wife that the show "Heart of the Matter" with Shawn McCraney came on the TV and I had never heard of it before. He told us he watched it a couple of times. A funny thing...after he told me about the show I started watching and on one of the shows our friend was a call-in and had a question for Shawn, he didn't seem anti, more like an apologist, so who knows. Although he has brought some stuff up about church history to my husband. He and his wife don't know the extent of my doubts, they are still very active but his calling is a good one, he is in the Nursery. So I totally believe there are many that have had their testimonies turned upside down.

Another friend of ours went to Dallas, TX recently to see her new baby grandson. And her son, who is a good friend of my son, both went on missions etc. but her son married in the temple. While visiting her son and daughter in law he came out carrying a cup of coffee and had a new tattoo on his wrist. It totally devasted my friend or I should say, old neighbor because we just go to dinner now and then. If this wasn't bad enough, several years ago her brother found out things about the church and became anti, in fact both her sister and brother became anti. She was also my visiting teacher at the time. And I remember her telling me about them and then soon after her brother took his life. I guess he totally went down-hill afterward and starting drinking heavily, he just couldn't handle the disbelief since his parents were devastated about it. I believe she may see her own son turning into how her brother was, perhaps. I know this would sound odd with non members, but to a stalwart LDS like my old neighbor, it's pretty heart breaking because it means her son isn't following the WoW and won't be able to renew their temple recommend. Very devasting to a family, too bad some things in our church has to come in-between like that. 

Well, coffee is a gateway drug. 

I think that's the hardest part, the fallout with family and friends. I didn't tell my parents for 2 years that I didn't believe in the church anymore for exactly that reason: I knew how much it would hurt my parents, especially my mother. Even now, my mother still talks to me as though she thinks I'm still an active, believing member. I don't know if it's denial or if she somehow thinks I've resolved my issues. But you're right. It's devastating to a believing parent when their child goes "astray."

[blueglass]

47 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I have this strange vision that has been developing in my head for the last few years.  Its odd, and I don't feel like I'm the right person to take a leadership role in making this vision real at all, I'm not nearly courageous and outgoing enough.  But my vision includes walking the streets of Utah and getting in contact with everyone and trying to get to know their story, what brought them to Utah, how they've been impacted by the dominant Mormon culture here, finding out how their lives have been impacted by Mormonism, good and bad, and then just listening and loving and supporting them.  At the end of these conversations, I'd like to bring everyone together, honor their journey and make everyone feel a part of a larger group. 

Mormonism is amazing, I think I'll always love and appreciate my pioneer heritage and my Mormon upbringing.  I'd love to get the community more united by considering everyone in our midst part of that broader community.  

"behold the seer, for he prophesieth, and there is a strange thing in the land; a wild man hath come among us."  Moses 6:38

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Do you think one reason the church provides free wifi at the chapels is to log the websites visited?  Does anyone know if the "gospel library" app can pull search strings entered in google and send to the COB IT guys?   The reason I ask is we attended a stake high council meeting and a member of the stake presidency said they met with the regional stake council, and the area authority seventy listed off the top 10 websites visited by members while sitting in the pews.  He was really put off by the list. 

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that church wifi was blocked during meetings, but I could be wrong. But yes, if you're using someone's wifi, they can find out what sites you've visited.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that church wifi was blocked during meetings, but I could be wrong. But yes, if you're using someone's wifi, they can find out what sites you've visited.

On some rare occasions I go on Mormon Dialogue, I can imagine some of our threads looking slightly anti to some people out there. So it can track who is looking up stuff as well? That might be a really dumb question. 

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Do you think one reason the church provides free wifi at the chapels is to log the websites visited?  Does anyone know if the "gospel library" app can pull search strings entered in google and send to the COB IT guys?   The reason I ask is we attended a stake high council meeting and a member of the stake presidency said they met with the regional stake council, and the area authority seventy listed off the top 10 websites visited by members while sitting in the pews.  He was really put off by the list. 

I don't know if it goes to the COB, and I'm not a computer guy, but I don't think it would be too hard for a stake clerk to pull history from the local network. I've heard similar stories in the past. The church does block some websites so there are ways for them to access info and block access.

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

On some rare occasions I go on Mormon Dialogue, I can imagine some of our threads looking slightly anti to some people out there. So it can track who is looking up stuff as well? That might be a really dumb question. 

Depends on the sophistication of the tracking system they have. As HappyJackWagon noted, it wouldn't be difficult at all for a stake clerk to get that information from the local network. When I was at my peak as a blogger, I was amazed at what I could see about visitors, including their IP address, where they were located, their operating system, browser version, how long they were on my site, what they read while they were there, and how they had found my site (links and even what they had searched on in what search engine).

[blueglass]

On 8/2/2018 at 10:42 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

sure, I'm in the cohort of 1971-1994. So the main questions would be, what has changed? Correlation? Access to information? End of days sifting?  But the short answer to the question of Are More People Leaving the Church? The answer seems to be an obvious yes.

one stat that really stands out for me is the disconnect and confidence the leaders have in themselves, "The church as a whole provides adequate information for leaders to help people who are in a faith crisis"  43% agree, whereas when asking those actually in faith crisis it flat lines to 0% "agree that the church as a whole provides adequate information for leaders to help people in a faith crisis".  

Also on an individual basis is the leadership confidence at 46% reporting "I can help", whereas those in faith crisis trust local leaders at 7.4%.  

[blueglass]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that church wifi was blocked during meetings, but I could be wrong. But yes, if you're using someone's wifi, they can find out what sites you've visited.

What about the gospel library app, lds tools?  We saw some weird things in the user agreement for the seminary app they were asking our daughter to install.  We turned down the agreement, and had to register for seminary via paper, and track attendance and other things by email.