Are More People Leaving the Church: Study

[hope_for_things]

23 minutes ago, blueglass said:

As far as I know right now there is no encouragement from an official communication for church leaders to learn about the essays "like the back of their hand" as Ballard advised CES teachers.  Just the word "essays" gives it a spooky feel of interest to academics, "not pertinent to my salvation".  As Emily Harris said in her MS interview when asking her bishop about "essays", "Why would I read the essays if they could damage my faith?" 

I've used the Ballard CES talk with my leaders because personally I think as leaders that they should follow that counsel, even if Ballard wasn't giving it directly to them. 

I do think some leaders view the essays with suspicion though.  When I finally meet with my new Bishop, I will be bringing this topic up to see if he's read the essays.  He's a former Mission President, and quite orthodox, so it will be interesting to see what he says.  

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Oh, I've been the ward project. I was talking about people who have been your friend and how sometimes it's easy to withdraw. If a friend reaches out, it's less likely to be a "project" than if a relative stranger does it. 

True.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

He actually was my SP when I was at BYU

I wasn't at BYU, but he was my SP around 2000 when I lived at Belmont. Never really got an opportunity to talk to him beyond my recommend interview.

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I've used the Ballard CES talk with my leaders because personally I think as leaders that they should follow that counsel, even if Ballard wasn't giving it directly to them. 

I do think some leaders view the essays with suspicion though.  When I finally meet with my new Bishop, I will be bringing this topic up to see if he's read the essays.  He's a former Mission President, and quite orthodox, so it will be interesting to see what he says.  

Hope you post what happens.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Hope you post what happens.  

Gotta get up the gumption to set something up, it feels a little complicated right now, but I'll try and remember to share.  

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Are you suggesting that there are resources to assist these people as well?  Is this multi-stake family support meeting a resource for discussing challenges like I'm talking about? 

The trauma and chaos experienced by loved ones of addicts can parallel that of someone experiencing a faith crisis. I have done both. The principles taught in the addiction recovery program, IMO, are equally beneficial to both. It focuses on our personal relationship with the Lord and works through the repentance process at the nitty-gritty level wher it makes a real difference. What? I need to repent? It’s my loved one (or the Church) that caused my problems, not me. That train of thought has to be derailed and replaced with humility and self-examination for recovery to occur, whether it be the addict or the loved one in crisis.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If not, talk with the bishop or stake president and ask about starting something.

I've done this multiple times with multiple leaders.  I plan on doing it again in the future as well (isn't this the definition of insanity).  So far, nothing.  I've suggested starting alternate Sunday school classes, 5th Sunday meetings, firesides, training for Sunday School teachers, special ministering to those struggling, including assigning people like myself who are familiar with faith crisis and versed on the history, educating for local church leaders, talks in special meetings addressing the topic, etc.  There are only so many things I can offer and suggest to so many people before I start to get discouraged.  

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I've done this multiple times with multiple leaders.  I plan on doing it again in the future as well (isn't this the definition of insanity).  So far, nothing.  I've suggested starting alternate Sunday school classes, 5th Sunday meetings, firesides, training for Sunday School teachers, special ministering to those struggling, including assigning people like myself who are familiar with faith crisis and versed on the history, educating for local church leaders, talks in special meetings addressing the topic, etc.  There are only so many things I can offer and suggest to so many people before I start to get discouraged.  

 

Sorry....see my EDIT. It’s more responsive.

[Meerkat]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Gotta get up the gumption to set something up, it feels a little complicated right now, but I'll try and remember to share.  

Hope for things, I am apparently blocked from commenting on your last question to me.  I can't even send it through the private message part.  Would you mind pm me your email address and I'll send it over?   If not, I understand.

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

He actually was my SP when I was at BYU

Do tell!!!!! what was that like? 

[cinepro]

39 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I've done this multiple times with multiple leaders.  I plan on doing it again in the future as well (isn't this the definition of insanity).  So far, nothing.  I've suggested starting alternate Sunday school classes, 5th Sunday meetings, firesides, training for Sunday School teachers, special ministering to those struggling, including assigning people like myself who are familiar with faith crisis and versed on the history, educating for local church leaders, talks in special meetings addressing the topic, etc.  There are only so many things I can offer and suggest to so many people before I start to get discouraged.  

 

How about an adults-only early morning seminary class that starts at 5:30am?

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

The trauma and chaos experienced by loved ones of addicts can parallel that of someone experiencing a faith crisis. I have done both. The principles taught in the addiction recovery program, IMO, are equally beneficial to both. It focuses on our personal relationship with the Lord and works through the repentance process at the nitty-gritty level wher it makes a real difference. What? I need to repent? It’s my loved one (or the Church) that caused my problems, not me. That train of thought has to be derailed and replaced with humility and self-examination for recovery to occur, whether it be the addict or the loved one in crisis.

I'd push back on this a little as I don't think the language of "addition" is accurate or useful in this case with all the negative stigma that goes along with it.  Of course self-examination is important, for everyone, especially those who are comfortable in their faith (all is well in Zion mentality).  And focusing on a relationship with God, however someone defines that, can be helpful as well.  Crisis is just one of the many challenges we all experience in life, I would expect that all of us need to learn to cope with it in healthy ways.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

How about an adults-only early morning seminary class that starts at 5:30am?

Hmm...  adults-only, that's where we read Song of Solomon, right? 

[stemelbow]

4 hours ago, mnn727 said:

You failed to account for Deaths.

I don't think so.  I assumed death rates stayed about the same over the past couple of decades.  

[Meerkat]

7 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm really not familiar with the addiction recovery programs, and I'm speaking about crisis of faith issues over learning about church history or struggling with the church's social positions, everything that causes serious questioning of belief in the church.  Are you suggesting that there are resources to assist these people as well?  Is this multi-stake family support meeting a resource for discussing challenges like I'm talking about? 

That's a fair point.  The family support program may not help those in faith crisis directly.  But it helps those who love them  learn how to recognize that their intellect and process are as worthy and valid as anyone's. They will figure out what is best for them.  And it's okay if it isn't Mormonism.  Hopefully, it will be.  But that's up to them to decide.  

Too often, we take the easy route and give pat answers without really listening or seeking inspiration, or considering the possibility they may be right on some of the controversial issues.    We (all members of the Church, in my opinion,) must learn how to discuss issues with a sincere listening ear.  We can't help them (or enlighten ourselves) if we keep slamming the door on their thought processes.  They are the ones who need to figure it out.  And that's as it MUST be.  We just can't tell people what they need to do or believe.  We don't want them doing that to us.  That has to come from within.  After all, our eleventh Article of Faith states: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."  If that's what we want for ourselves, we must be willing to give that respect to everyone.

Many in faith crisis have been shaken by historical and other issues the Church was slow to respond to-- people, like you, who had no other issues other than wading through the apparent conflicts. I remember reading the anti literature back in the 70's. It was devastating, and sickening. Fortunately, I had much of their source material they amply footnoted, and found they would quote an LDS source, then explain what it meant. In most cases, I found their commentary was dishonest or they deeply misunderstood the context. Still, it was sickening and hard to disregard.  Thankfully, I had a powerful testimony of the Book of Mormon that got me through it.

My experience with two family members over the past five years (and many others I saw when serving in a prior calling,) is different from that.  I believe their issues play a part in at least half, and probably more, of those suffering a faith crisis today. 

WHY I RESPONDED TO YOUR EARLIER POST AS I DID: 

Our two loved ones left the Church and our family for several years, due to a faith crisis exacerbated by addiction.  We handled it all wrong because we didn't know any better.  

Estrangement from adult children, and the separation from their divorced spouses and grandchildren, is heart breaking.  We have found two things are helping us mend our relationships with our loved ones.  First is the spiritual fortification we receive in the family support meetings.  Another is remembering that many or most of us had our own path to faith that once included doubt and confusion.  (The world is, imo, more confusing today than in Joseph Smith's day.) We need to remember that and learn how to listen rather prescribe.  Those meetings help with that for parents and friends of addicted, estranged or faith challenged loved ones.  We need to allow people to have a faith crisis and love them through it, no matter how long it takes.  It may take longer that this life. 

When we are so strident in our views, we can actually cause contention and push our loved ones into the arms of others who WILL listen to them.  People with sincere empathy and answers that initially satisfy.  In the case of many Anti-Mormons, the result for our loved ones is not another Christian church.  It is athiesm, coupled with debauchery.  If, by loving communication, they can be encouraged to live the values of the Church for awhile, the Spirit will help them sort things out for the best.  Their life.  Their decision.

Your idea of a help group specific to faith crisis sounds like a good one.  Sharing answers, opinions and perspectives on what they are going through, and how they might find their way through it seems like it would be helpful. You may get a better showing than the family support groups do.  Probably most of us are impacted initially by embarrassment or pride attending a family addiction recovery support group.  That, in my experience, lasts about a month when the benefit of participating in that group sinks in. Realizing the seriousness of the issues you would be discussing, I understand why some Church leaders may take their time before providing enthusiastic support.  It is probably a beta program somewhere in the Church.  Or maybe you could be the first.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Meerkat

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, Meerkat said:

The family support program may not help those in faith crisis directly.  But it helps those who love them  learn how to recognize that their intellect and process are as worthy and valid as anyone's. They will figure out what is best for them.  And it's okay if it isn't Mormonism.  Hopefully, it will be.  But that's up to them to decide.  

Can you clarify what you just said.  Are you saying this multi stake family support program is setup to address family members who have had loved ones leave the church or who's loved ones are struggling with faith crisis?  I've never heard of this before, and I would be interesting in learning more.  Can you share more information, I would love to direct my current leaders to this as a resource.  I've have multiple people in my ward and stake come to me because they have a child or loved one in faith crisis, and they don't know how to respond.  If the church has an official mechanism of support for these people, this is the first time I'm hearing about it. 

4 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Too often, we take the easy route and give pat answers without really listening or seeking inspiration, or considering the possibility they may be right on some of the controversial issues.    We (all members of the Church, in my opinion,) must learn how to discuss issues with a sincere listening ear.  We can't help them (or enlighten ourselves) if we keep slamming the door on their thought processes.  They are the ones who need to figure it out.  And that's as it MUST be.  We just can't tell people what they need to do or believe.  We don't want them doing that to us.  That has to come from within.  After all, our eleventh Article of Faith states: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."  If that's what we want for ourselves, we must be willing to give that respect to everyone.

This is excellent and I completely agree.  This is what it means to love our neighbor and love our enemies.  We have to listen and learn from them, that is how we love them, through empathy and understanding and learning how we can be better through our interactions with others who have differences of opinion.  I ran across a quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln that I really liked the other day.  "I don't like that man. I must get to know him better."  

9 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

WHY I RESPONDED TO YOUR EARLIER POST AS I DID: 

Our two loved ones left the Church and our family for several years, due to a faith crisis exacerbated by addiction.  We handled it all wrong because we didn't know any better.  

Estrangement from adult children, and the separation from their divorced spouses and grandchildren, is heart breaking.  We have found two things are helping us mend our relationships with our loved ones.  First is the spiritual fortification we receive in the family support meetings.  meetings.  Another is that most of us had our own path to faith that once included doubt and confusion.  (The world is, imo, more confusing today than in Joseph Smith's day.) We need to remember that and learn how to listen rather prescribe.  Those meetings help with that for parents and friends of addicted, estranged or faith challenged loved ones.  We need to allow people to have a faith crisis and love them through it, no matter how long it takes.  It may take longer that this life. 

When we are so strident in our views, we can actually cause contention and push our loved into the arms of others who WILL listen to them.  People with sincere empathy and answers that initially satisfy.  In the case of many Anti-Mormons, the result for our loved ones is not another Christian church.  It is athiesm, coupled with debauchery.  If, by loving communication, they can be encouraged to live the values of the Church for awhile, the Spirit will help them sort things out for the best.  Their life.  Their decision.

Your idea of a help group specific to faith crisis sounds like a good one.  Sharing answers, opinions or perspectives on what they are going through, and how they might find their way through it seems like it would be helpful. You may get a better showing than the family support groups do.  Probably most of us are impacted initially by embarrassment or pride attending a family addiction recovery support group.  That, in my experience, lasts about a month when the benefit of participating in that group sinks in.

Thanks for the additional information.  I try to stay engaged with those struggling with Mormon faith crisis through support groups.  And while I see some struggle with finding grounding after losing their faith in Mormonism, perhaps they get caught up in excessive experimentation with substances or other behaviors that can have some negative impact on their relationships, I think to generalize that this is always the case or even a frequent outcome is an inaccurate negative stereotype.  Atheism is not coupled with debauchery, that is a horrible prejudiced trope that is akin to saying Mormonism is coupled with cultish automaton behavior. 

I'm pretty much an atheist and I'm probably more orthoprax Mormon than most active Mormons are today.  Love my wife and kids, don't even drink caffeinated drinks (never really cared for them), very conservative in most of my personal behaviors.

If we are to truly learn from one another, we have to put down these preconceived notions about what the other side is like.  Actual interactions with people is the solution.  

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Can you clarify what you just said.  PLEASE SEE BRO. GUI'S COMMENT BELOW.  We have experienced the same thing in our family addiction recovery support group and learned much about how to relate to our loved ones who are addicted, estranged and in the midst of a faith crisis.  Your group may be a better solution.  But the existing framework works well for my wife and me.

Are you saying this multi stake family support program is setup to address family members who have had loved ones leave the church or who's loved ones are struggling with faith crisis? 

I don't believe it was set up for that.  But it has certanly taught us how to engage regarding that issue.  They are still out of the Church, but we are in a loving family relationship that is getting stronger all the time.  We gladly accept them and their process.  We don't know if they will ever return to our faith.  Frankly, we focus on our own salvation in those meetings.  And we aren't overly concerned about what they choose.  We just want them to know we love them.  And they do.

I've never heard of this before, and I would be interesting in learning more.  Can you share more information, I would love to direct my current leaders to this as a resource.  I've have multiple people in my ward and stake come to me because they have a child or loved one in faith crisis, and they don't know how to respond.  If the church has an official mechanism of support for these people, this is the first time I'm hearing about it. See my comment above.

(Regarding 11th Article of Faith) This is excellent and I completely agree.  This is what it means to love our neighbor and love our enemies.  We have to listen and learn from them, that is how we love them, through empathy and understanding and learning how we can be better through our interactions with others who have differences of opinion.  I ran across a quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln that I really liked the other day.  "I don't like that man. I must get to know him better."  

Thanks for the additional information.  I try to stay engaged with those struggling with Mormon faith crisis through support groups.  And while I see some struggle with finding grounding after losing their faith in Mormonism, perhaps they get caught up in excessive experimentation with substances or other behaviors that can have some negative impact on their relationships,

I think to generalize that this is always the case or even a frequent outcome is an inaccurate negative stereotype.  Atheism is not coupled with debauchery, that is a horrible prejudiced trope that is akin to saying Mormonism is coupled with cultish automaton behavior. 

I'm not suggesting Athiesm is coupled with debauchery.  The information I shared here is from my loved ones and what they have explained to me.  When they left the Church, they left their community.  In our area, there is a strong Anti-Mormon group that organizes for dating and family activities, etc.  It is sizable, and many Exmo's (their word) we know belong to it.  They, as a group, have no problem experimenting with pot or harder drugs or substances.  Drinking is part of their culture, as is promiscuity.  Athieism is the common faith.  One of them moved to Arizona and picked up the group down there, but found they had an even more active alternate lifestyle than the Exmo's here, and realized it wasn't a mentally healthy place for him to be.  Since that realization, our relationship seems to be improving somewhat.  I apologize for generalizing, especially if you know of such groups that are not predominantly involved in those things.  That's been my experience with those I know here. You may be right!  I was wrong once before. 😉

I'm pretty much an atheist and I'm probably more orthoprax Mormon than most active Mormons are today.  Love my wife and kids, don't even drink caffeinated drinks (never really cared for them), very conservative in most of my personal behaviors.

That's excellent and I usually enjoy your comments and insights here.

If we are to truly learn from one another, we have to put down these preconceived notions about what the other side is like.  Actual interactions with people is the solution.  

I agree.  If I knew my loved ones were involved with that group, and did not consider that, I may be subject to false expectations.  But you are right, actual interactiom with prople is the solution.  I didn't intend my comment to be pejorative to you or anyone else, only enlightening to me.  I guess the saying is true: "When I open my mouth, my mind is on parade."  

I agree with Bernard Gui on this (see bolded):

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The trauma and chaos experienced by loved ones of addicts can parallel that of someone experiencing a faith crisis. I have done both. The principles taught in the addiction recovery program, IMO, are equally beneficial to both. It focuses on our personal relationship with the Lord and works through the repentance process at the nitty-gritty level wher it makes a real difference. What? I need to repent? It’s my loved one (or the Church) that caused my problems, not me. That train of thought has to be derailed and replaced with humility and self-examination for recovery to occur, whether it be the addict or the loved one in crisis.

I wish you the very best, Hope_for_Things!

Edited August 6, 2018 by Meerkat

[mnn727]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think so.  I assumed death rates stayed about the same over the past couple of decades.  

Yeah? really? show us all the figures you used. then.

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, Meerkat said:

I've never heard of this before, and I would be interesting in learning more.  Can you share more information, I would love to direct my current leaders to this as a resource.  I've have multiple people in my ward and stake come to me because they have a child or loved one in faith crisis, and they don't know how to respond.  If the church has an official mechanism of support for these people, this is the first time I'm hearing about it. See my comment above.

I can't tell if what you're saying about these multi stake groups is that they have an official mechanism in place to help support people who've had family members in faith crisis, or if just your has been dealing with this issue because many members have this situation in common.  Can you say if any specific resources have been provided by the group to help, or are you saying that just having others to talk to has been helpful.  

Also, is there an official name for this group as I'd like to find out if my stake has one in place.  

 

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I can't tell if what you're saying about these multi stake groups is that they have an official mechanism in place to help support people who've had family members in faith crisis, or if just your has been dealing with this issue because many members have this situation in common.  Can you say if any specific resources have been provided by the group to help, or are you saying that just having others to talk to has been helpful.  

Also, is there an official name for this group as I'd like to find out if my stake has one in place.  

 

This is the manual we use: 

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/spouses-and-families?lang=eng

It is the official support program for spouses, parents and loved ones dealing with addictions or the other issues we discussed.  It is a private, confidential meeting.  We don't discuss who attended or what was discussed outside the meeting.

The instructions are in the manual.  We read a section per week, and discuss the questions asked.  The questions lead to some wonderful and interesting discussions.  Sometimes we branch off.  For this to work, it needs to be a group setting.  My wife and I have had fruitful discussions when we have been out of town.  We have been at it nearly five years and love it.  Others have been there longer.  Still others come and go.

Maybe you and your wife would enjoy it at home or in the group.  We do talk a lot about faith in the Savior though, and the healing power of Christ's Atonement.  And we experience it.  We attend Church on Sunday and are uplifted.  We have this meeting in the middle of the week and are lifted up again.  So we function at a consistently higher level of spirituality and happiness throughout the week.  

In answer to your question, we don't segregate by the reasons people want to attend.  It just seems to work out fine for us.  You make some pretty good friends.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Meerkat