"Faith Crisis" support group?

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/26/2018 at 3:16 PM, Tacenda said:

I think it could help a lot of people stay in the church. I needed someone to talk to about my crisis, and ended up going to StayLDS.com. It was okay. Then I tried NewOrderMormon, and it was okay because it led me to be able to talk face to face to someone nearby in my hometown. I would have loved something in the church for this. I had not a soul I dared talk to. Because it might open the door for them to go into a crisis as well. But if we had some LDS that were aware of the situation and could help, why not?

It's the hardest thing I've ever had to go through in my life. People of faith, that have never experienced probably won't understand. So maybe someone that's been there done that? 

If you are in my area I would love to meet and talk! PM me if that works. 

 

How do you know that people of faith have never experienced a crisis of faith?

[RevTestament]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, I have heard that interpretation. I am not convinced that is what it means. Or maybe it is like the Temple and has multiple meanings. Not sure.

Scripture tells you what it means.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Let me know when you come up with another interpretation that fits - but I won't be holding my breath. It all fits like a glove. Anyway, it's no great mystery. Daniel and Revelation make perfect sense.

[Eek!]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Sorry, I wrote that badly. My fault. I meant how can you accept both Christ as the promised Messiah and the Restoration and then accept half of the restored gospel?

My response wouldn't change much:  Same way that someone could accept Jesus as the promised Messiah who founded the true Church, and still not be a Rpman Catholic.

Point being, no religion is immune to being corrupted.  Corruption is what eventually happened to every group in the scriptures that I can think of except for the City of Enoch.  Regardless of any claims their clergy may have made that the Lord would not allow them to be led astray. 

Let me take one example from LDS history:

Do you recall what happened at the dedication of the Kirkland Temple?   How the people who were present saw angels and the spirits of departed loved ones, and a divine light illuminated the temple so brightly at night that the local newspaper actually reported that the Temple had burned down?  This was arguably the most amazing independently documented miraculous event in American religious history, the documentation being said that newspaper article.  Not to mention Christ appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery a few days later and telling them that he accepted the Kirkland Temple as his house. 

After these events at the Kirkland Temple, to say that expectation ran high for the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple would be an extreme understatement. 

Do you recall what happened at the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple?  Probably not, because nothing happened.  Which is too bad, if you take D&C 97 at face value: 

"And inasmuch as my people build a house unto me in the name of the Lord, and do not suffer any unclean thing to come into it, that it be not defiled, my glory shall rest upon it; yea, and my presence shall be there, for I will come into it, and all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God. But if it be defiled I will not come into it, and my glory shall not be there; for I will not come into unholy temples."

Imo the second apostasy may have already been underway by the time the Nauvoo Temple was dedicated in April of 1846.   

Edited June 28, 2018 by Eek!

[changed]

6 hours ago, DBMormon said:

I wish such a thing existed.  It doesn't nor ever will for several reasons

- The rabbit hole goes forever.  meaning that anytime you get together with others to digest and reconcile the tough issues, the continued ongoing discovery of new issues that are problematic goes forever.  This means generally that if the church makes a safe space for the focus to be on discussing the issues, everyone is going to discover more and more issues. Seriously the rabbit hole never ends.  This means that the risk of creating a loss of Faith in Mormonism is much greater than the reward of reconciling folk's concerns.

- When one begins exploring a "Mormon Faith Crisis", it is not long before one sees or comes across "Faith development".  When one dives into this social science one learns that what was before defined as a "crisis of faith", is actually normal human growth.  The reason it feels like a crisis is because of the tension bvetween the new growth inside juxtaposed by the tribe one belongs to imposing that such growth is instead a falling away.  When one grasps the concepts within this growth, it becomes apparent quickly that institutional Mormonism has many mechanisms designed to squash such an awakening and to encourage one to stay in a more binary/outer authority paradigm.  It only takes one person to open the group up to information of such development before a whole room of folks sense that the Church is a barrier rather than fertile ground for such development.

- Apologetics works well one on one.  generally Apologetic answers to the tough questions requires you to make space for the less rational solutions (think book of abraham,  The most rationale answer is the critical one but we in making space for faith encourage each other to make space for a missing scroll or a catalyst theory or some other less reasonable answer) .  Because we want to believe badly, we accept these less rationale answers as possibilities that we will "place faith in".  But if in a room full of folks a discussion ensues around these answers and their level of rationale, logic, and plausibility, it only takes one person in the group to point out that such answers are weak/problematic/irrational for one to see the critics on many issues have the more reasonable answer.  Then compound that over a dozen issues or a 100 issues.  Before long one sees the silliness in investing in "less likely" answers when looking at the issues collectively.  This is why the Church suggests you keep your doubts between you and your Bishop rather than discuss openly in classes.   

-  The final issue is that the narrative the Church holds up as official (manuals and other correlated material) is very whitewashed while containing false faith promoting stories throughout.  There are at least 18 stories in last years primary manual for instance that have historical problems begging to be asked about, and the adult manuals are not much better.  If a class was spending their time trying to help each other dive into the sticky issues, it would become apparent quickly that the Church has only shared the most faithful 5% mixed in with false faith promoting stories.  The "doubter" would quickly realize the Church has not given them enough data to make truly informed choices and the anger and frustration would increase.  In a group setting this would have a lot of risk versus little reward so long as the church tells a deeply inaccurate, simplified, whitewashed version of itself
 

 

The Perry scheme does not end in a rabbit hole - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Perry  the upper levels return to commitment despite ambiguity and imperfection, with the added ability to continue evolving based on further input. 

If the faith journey, or any journey for that matter, starts with reliance on authority figures and ends when you become your own authority  - recognition of where that journey starts, that it starts with the need for mentors and the need for a prophet - perhaps you could support the organization, and go along with the program out of respect for what those in the earlier stages are needing.   

Let's say G-d wants to raise up other G-d's... which is pushing people to become their own authority - how would you go about doing this?  Give them a mentor to start them off, but give them an imperfect mentor that forces them to walk on their own two feet a bit too... why not.  

5 hours ago, rockpond said:

The information is available but what percentage of members will go find it on their own vs the percentage who might take advantage of a support group to discuss things. 

I agree with Bill... support groups will not be provided by the church.  For example, I am someone who has been through a faith crisis and has managed to stay actively engaged and even served in ward and stake leadership positions. But, if my bishop or SP asked me to lead such a support group I would have serious reservations and ask them to consider how they’d want me to accomplish such a task.  Because, I don’t know how to lead a group like that in a way that I think my ward/stake leadership would approve of.  A Bill explained, the rabbit hole goes to deep and leads to a place that church leadership does not want to go. 

 

Perhaps you are right, "unofficial" groups would be better than official groups.  Perhaps that is where the giant leap happens.

 

3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Part of the crisis is wondering if one still belongs.

 

You can say that again.   I have teenagers - they have grown up in the church, there are some god programs, friends there etc. that I do not want to remove them from.  They know their mom will drop them off... but will not really stay for the mtgs' - so they also have freedom to explore without "letting down mom".  I'm hoping that will give them a good mix of being part of a community, while also having the freedom of personal exploration.  

 

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Most who speak of being opposed to "organized religion", have never been  part of one.

 

My dad left organized religion after some... bad experiences... with nuns at a Catholic school :D.  

He won't go to church, but is a very religious man.  When I invite him to go - he retorts "You know church scares the hell out of me" - and I tell him "I know dad, that's the point" 

 

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

 Part of the solution is to stop looking for church leaders to have the answers to our faith crises.  

Another progression to consider:  Dependent → Independent → Interdependent  

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not understand that approach. One of the main logical realities of the gospel is that if Jesus was who he said he was and that Joseph Smith had the experiences and received the powers and knowledge he did then how do you accept half and reject the other? I do understand that people grow in their testimony of certain principles. It wasn't until my 30s that I really grasped fasting and got a testimony of what it could do but because I accepted the gospel I did it anyways. This approach seems like it is designed to illogically justify a "cafeteria Mormon" approach in perpetuity.

 

My loyalties will now lie with principles - what brings peace, joy, progression, togetherness... things that isolate, vs. things that bring people together.  If it aligns with those principles, great!  If it does not, then count me out.

Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?... I will take #1, in which case, the real governing power of the universe are principles and morals... Natural laws the real power behind it all - can I believe that and not be an atheist?  

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure I buy the stages at all. I think the next proper spiritual stage beyond the so-called "follow the prophet" stage is to continue following the prophet while developing your own spiritual gifts and knowledge to the point that you receive more and more light granted due to your faithfulness until the "perfect day". This does tend to lead to a loss of dogmatism. Not because you are wrong but because being dogmatic about your own preconceptions, rationalizations, and conclusions can blind you to further revelation and knowledge. It is also the stage where obedience (I am told) ceases to be a burden and becomes a quest but I have not gotten that far yet.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.... that is the progression for all of us.  

 

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

What is UU?

 

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am guessing Unitarian Universalism. A bunch of atheists, agnostics, theists, and whatever else there is seeking truth in drips and drabs from major religions. They get in trouble every so often for aping the religious rituals and practices of others and even mingling them. Basically a bunch of religious dilettantes.

When asked what the true faith is one wise man responded:

 

Last Christmas, my diverse family went to a UU church because it just sort of worked for everyone.  It was commercial - professional music etc. nice entertainment, sort of motivational speaker kind of a thing... the funny thing though, I ended up recognizing quite a few people there - some old friends from HS happened to be there, our family took up an entire row - it was neat for everyone to be together under one roof at a religious service.  That was a different state though.

Bahá'í faith is tempting as well...

at this point it is coming down to who I know, and who the kids are friends with etc. etc. rather than the beliefs of the organization.  We've been at our current place long enough that a few people at church do feel like family - i tis a misfit family, but a family.

Edited June 28, 2018 by changed

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Eek! said:

Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees after reading a scripture that assured him God would not be upset with him for seeking.  Joseph sought, and by golly he found.  And God has not changed since then. 

Yet here we are grousing about the Church Joseph founded in the Restoration under the direction of Jesus. Go figure!

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

What other motives?

I agree that podcasts don’t offer what Jesus can (they aren’t meant to).  They aren’t meant to replace ministering or the sacrament or repentance. 

 

Are they replacing apostles and prophets with someone else who can better lead them to Jesus? Or putting someone else between them and Jesus?

Edited June 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Do you recall what happened at the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple?

I was at the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple in 2002 with my eldest sister. I recall very specifically what happened. She and I have discussed it on a number of occasions. It was our Kirtland.

[changed]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yet here we are grousing about the Church Joseph founded in the Restoration under the direction of Jesus. Go figure!

Joseph set a good example to follow... everyone needs to go, say a prayer, and find out for themselves.

I love trees. 

interesting, isn't it?  the sacred groves of the old testament... some were torn down.  

I think there is an account of Abraham in a sacred grove.

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, changed said:

Joseph set a good example to follow... everyone needs to go, say a prayer, and find out for themselves.

I love trees. 

interesting, isn't it?  the sacred groves of the old testament... some were torn down.  

I think there is an account of Abraham in a sacred grove.

I’m not sure what you mean. The groves that were torn down were not sacred. They were pagan shrines. Please elaborate.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Eek! said:

My response wouldn't change much:  Same way that someone could accept Jesus as the promised Messiah who founded the true Church, and still not be a Rpman Catholic.

Point being, no religion is immune to being corrupted.  Corruption is what eventually happened to every group in the scriptures that I can think of except for the City of Enoch.  Regardless of any claims their clergy may have made that the Lord would not allow them to be led astray. 

Let me take one example from LDS history:

Do you recall what happened at the dedication of the Kirkland Temple?   How the people who were present saw angels and the spirits of departed loved ones, and a divine light illuminated the temple so brightly at night that the local newspaper actually reported that the Temple had burned down?  This was arguably the most amazing independently documented miraculous event in American religious history, the documentation being said that newspaper article.  Not to mention Christ appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery a few days later and telling them that he accepted the Kirkland Temple as his house. 

After these events at the Kirkland Temple, to say that expectation ran high for the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple would be an extreme understatement. 

Do you recall what happened at the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple?  Probably not, because nothing happened.  Which is too bad, if you take D&C 97 at face value: 

"And inasmuch as my people build a house unto me in the name of the Lord, and do not suffer any unclean thing to come into it, that it be not defiled, my glory shall rest upon it; yea, and my presence shall be there, for I will come into it, and all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God. But if it be defiled I will not come into it, and my glory shall not be there; for I will not come into unholy temples."

Imo the second apostasy may have already been underway by the time the Nauvoo Temple was dedicated in April of 1846.   

Is this a Snufferism?

The Nauvoo Temple was dedicated piecemeal as each section was finished. The Saints were under extreme pressure to finish it before they had to evacuate. Then there is this....

Quote

In spite of this departure, labor on the temple continued.  On March 27, 1846, Orson Hyde wrote to Brigham Young, advising him that the temple would not be ready to dedicate on April 6, 1846, as had been Brigham Young’s plan.  On March 15, 1846, 14 men who were laboring in the temple met together for prayer in the attic story and experienced heavenly manifestations, which some called a pentacostal night.  These manifestations included speaking in tongues, visions, appearances of heavenly beings, and the appearance of flames on the temple that did not consume the building....

It seems that the Saints were tenacious in safeguarding that ordinances were not performed without the pertinent dedication.  The various elements that would have been dedicated in one sweeping dedication were covered, though not in the fashion we would later deem as typical.  A pentocostal experience took place, but preceded the dedication of the finished temple.   One might wonder why it was even necessary to return for the 6^th and 7^th dedications.  Orson Hyde explained: “If we move forward and finished this house, we should be received and accepted as a church with our dead.  But if not we should be rejected with our dead.”

https://wheatandtares.org/2013/12/16/the-nauvoo-temple-1840s-dedication-inimitable-or-invalid/

 

[rockpond]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are they replacing apostles and prophets with someone else who can better lead them to Jesus? Or putting someone else between them and Jesus?

Nope.  I don’t think you could find a Mormon-themed podcast listener who would agree with such a conclusion. 

Although, if a podcast better led someone to Jesus, that wouldn’t be a bad thing. 

[DBMormon]

9 hours ago, changed said:

I was not familiar with Fowler's work:

http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html

Love it!  It is actually similar to:

https://cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/perry.positions.html

I like the idea that a faith crisis - skepticism - is required to progress to the highest levels.  

Woo Hoo - I am having a Faith crisis, I am headed to the next level

 

Can I recommend some reading material
http://www.thebattleofarmageddon.com/stages_of_faith.pdf

https://christoffaith.org/2018/04/7386/

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Scripture tells you what it means.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Let me know when you come up with another interpretation that fits - but I won't be holding my breath. It all fits like a glove. Anyway, it's no great mystery. Daniel and Revelation make perfect sense.

Then when is the Second Coming?  

Edited June 28, 2018 by The Nehor

[CV75]

12 hours ago, rockpond said:

None of the above counters my point that the message we hear from the pulpit and in correlated materials is that members should stay in stage 3.  If you have evidence to the contrary, please offer it. 

According to the article, what anyone is going to hear from the pulpit is what they are prepared at their stage of development to hear. A member at stage 3 will hear at that level, stage 4 at their level, etc. I don't see the problem since we all grow and develop at different rates and to different extents. We do believe in grace, and we all begin with a mere particle of faith.

The problem (the subject of the thread) is what are people to do when they have a faith crisis. The article suggests some causes and offers some solutions for "most people," whom he assess are at stage 3. And if one considers the complexity of any one person being at any of the six stages on any particular point of faith, it's probably safe to safe we all "average out" to 3 anyway... 🙂

Your "point that the message we hear from the pulpit and in correlated materials is that members should stay in stage 3" is simply countered with, "No, we don't all hear it that way (I certainly don't)."

The article is just an example of how to address faith crises from a faith development standpoint. But there are so many other factors to consider that impact faith and how we interpret what is said from the pulpit and correlated materials: personality types; areas of intelligence and their types; nature/nurture; Spirit and miracles; etc.

 

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Eek! said:

My response wouldn't change much:  Same way that someone could accept Jesus as the promised Messiah who founded the true Church, and still not be a Rpman Catholic.

Point being, no religion is immune to being corrupted.  Corruption is what eventually happened to every group in the scriptures that I can think of except for the City of Enoch.  Regardless of any claims their clergy may have made that the Lord would not allow them to be led astray. 

Let me take one example from LDS history:

Do you recall what happened at the dedication of the Kirkland Temple?   How the people who were present saw angels and the spirits of departed loved ones, and a divine light illuminated the temple so brightly at night that the local newspaper actually reported that the Temple had burned down?  This was arguably the most amazing independently documented miraculous event in American religious history, the documentation being said that newspaper article.  Not to mention Christ appearing to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery a few days later and telling them that he accepted the Kirkland Temple as his house. 

After these events at the Kirkland Temple, to say that expectation ran high for the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple would be an extreme understatement. 

Do you recall what happened at the dedication of the Nauvoo Temple?  Probably not, because nothing happened.  Which is too bad, if you take D&C 97 at face value: 

"And inasmuch as my people build a house unto me in the name of the Lord, and do not suffer any unclean thing to come into it, that it be not defiled, my glory shall rest upon it; yea, and my presence shall be there, for I will come into it, and all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God. But if it be defiled I will not come into it, and my glory shall not be there; for I will not come into unholy temples."

Imo the second apostasy may have already been underway by the time the Nauvoo Temple was dedicated in April of 1846.   

If it is corrupt enough that you can doubt half of it then I would skip out on the Church and wait for a new restoration or become the next Joseph Smith. You know you want to.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, changed said:

I was not familiar with Fowler's work:

http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html

Love it!  It is actually similar to:

https://cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/perry.positions.html

I like the idea that a faith crisis - skepticism - is required to progress to the highest levels.  

Woo Hoo - I am having a Faith crisis, I am headed to the next level

I know we're focusing a bit on stages of development, and not to minimize the effectiveness of these tools, but there are so many other factors to consider that impact faith and how we interpret our culture and doctrines: our personality type; various areas of intelligence and the various types; the effect of nature and nurture; Spirit and miracles; etc. In any of these areas, growth is going to be tough!

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, changed said:

My loyalties will now lie with principles - what brings peace, joy, progression, togetherness... things that isolate, vs. things that bring people together.  If it aligns with those principles, great!  If it does not, then count me out.

Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?... I will take #1, in which case, the real governing power of the universe are principles and morals... Natural laws the real power behind it all - can I believe that and not be an atheist?  

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.... that is the progression for all of us.  

Seems more like idolatry to me. If it matches what I like it must be divine.

I am not sure why the recognition of one’s ignorance acquired an air of profundity. It is true but it really isn’t that hard to recognize. Too close to glorifying ignorance.

[rockpond]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

According to the article, what anyone is going to hear from the pulpit is what they are prepared at their stage of development to hear. A member at stage 3 will hear at that level, stage 4 at their level, etc. I don't see the problem since we all grow and develop at different rates and to different extents. We do believe in grace, and we all begin with a mere particle of faith.

The problem (the subject of the thread) is what are people to do when they have a faith crisis. The article suggests some causes and offers some solutions for "most people," whom he assess are at stage 3. And if one considers the complexity of any one person being at any of the six stages on any particular point of faith, it's probably safe to safe we all "average out" to 3 anyway... 🙂

Your "point that the message we hear from the pulpit and in correlated materials is that members should stay in stage 3" is simply countered with, "No, we don't all hear it that way (I certainly don't)."

The article is just an example of how to address faith crises from a faith development standpoint. But there are so many other factors to consider that impact faith and how we interpret what is said from the pulpit and correlated materials: personality types; areas of intelligence and their types; nature/nurture; Spirit and miracles; etc.

 

I agree... if you are at stage 4 or 5, you'll hear and interpret messages at that stage of faith.  But when the Brethren preach messages such as "follow the prophet", all true or all a fraud, and "trust us" they are teaching a message to STAY at stage 3.  Those are stage 3 ideals.

Are there members in stage 4 and 5?  Yes.  Will they hear and interpret those messages differently?  Yes.  Do correlated church materials teach a stage 3 belief?  Yes.  Do the Brethren want members to move beyond a stage 3 faith?  I don't think they do.

[changed]

Ran across this in my morning meditations...

I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

I also ran across this from another book...

The harder you try, the less you know ...  

 

[changed]

1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

Can I recommend some reading material
http://www.thebattleofarmageddon.com/stages_of_faith.pdf

https://christoffaith.org/2018/04/7386/

Good reading material, thanks.

I stayed up late with my teenage son last night - I showed him the stages of faith, and surprisingly he said he had already learned about it in school from an amazing middle-school teacher.  He wanted to stay up and watch a movie with me, my choice - so I introduced him to the Dead Poet Society.  I think he was able to understand quite a bit of it.  

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Seems more like idolatry to me. If it matches what I like it must be divine.

I am not sure why the recognition of one’s ignorance acquired an air of profundity. It is true but it really isn’t that hard to recognize. Too close to glorifying ignorance.

Not glorifying it, just being honest about it.  We believe in being honest.... 

[SouthernMo]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If it is corrupt enough that you can doubt half of it then I would skip out on the Church and wait for a new restoration or become the next Joseph Smith. You know you want to.

Why would you say this?  If you believe the church is true, why goad someone into leaving it?  Aren’t we supppsed to invite others to come to Christ?

Why divide when we could unite?

[Maestrophil]

This board was my discussion group during my trial of faith.  

[Eek!]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is this a Snufferism?

I had to look that up.

At this time I am not interested enough in reading Denver Snuffer's writings to see where they go.

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If it is corrupt enough that you can doubt half of it then I would skip out on the Church and wait for a new restoration ..

Not sure what the percentage is that I doubt. 

Imo Christ has been more active in working through channels other than the LDS church since time of Joseph Smith.  One of Joseph Smith's superpowers was, once he learned something, he was still totally open to the possibility that there may be something higher and perhaps totally different yet to be learned.   Christ works through seekers.  "Seek and ye shall find" doesn't have an expiration date.  There is no reason why Christ cannot work through channels other than the leadership of the LDS church, and imo it makes sense that he would. 

46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

.. or become the next Joseph Smith. You know you want to.

I need a new Order that will succeed where the Danites failed.  Would you lead it?   We could even name it after you. 

Actually back in the 90's I did consider creating my own religion and registering it for tax purposes.  The only fixed doctrine would be that there was no fixed doctrine (thus no barriers to greater light and knowledge), and membership would be permanently limited to one.  So you could join it, but then I'd have to leave. 

9 hours ago, changed said:

Last Christmas, my diverse family went to a UU church because it just sort of worked for everyone.  It was commercial - professional music etc. nice entertainment, sort of motivational speaker kind of a thing... the funny thing though, I ended up recognizing quite a few people there - some old friends from HS happened to be there, our family took up an entire row - it was neat for everyone to be together under one roof at a religious service. 

Though I claim to be a long-path universalist, I'm not drawn to Unitarian Universalism.  Went to one of their services decades ago and it was nice but I didn't feel like there was anything there I really needed to learn.  I find the LDS concept of eternal progression much more enlightening. 

But I'm a loner at this time, not seeking to be part of any religion.  I would much rather make my own mistakes than make somebody else's.  

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Eek! said:

I had to look that up.

 At this time I am not interested enough in reading Denver Snuffer's writings to see where they go.

I was just wondering because the article I cited in Wheat and Tares was a response to this exact point about the Nauvoo temple....made by Snuffer. Apparently there was a spiritual outpouring there.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

This board was my discussion group during my trial of faith.  

Same here! But it only partially filled my need for some communication of the difficult subjects in the church. I had no one, not even my husband because those discussions turned to arguing and left me in tears and my husband wondering if I already had Alzheimer's. Luckily he and I are on the same page now.

I don't fit in with the women surrounding me as well, since my hobbies are not decorating, crafting, clothes shopping or whatever. My hobby now is discussing the church pretty much. The women around me are not into doing that at all, so it is a pretty lonesome road. I do try to fit in and act like I like sewing, crafting, decorating and shopping. I really want to get back to those things and reading a book that has nothing to do with Mormonism. Light and fluffy sounds a whole lot less stressful vs. worrying about my salvation, or if there is life after death, or worrying about losing so much if I show my true identity.