The Nehor Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 24 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: I say/ask this not to ‘strong arm’ you into a position, but to understand your testimony: Isn’t it fair to say then, that your own personal revelation is the basis and rock on which you in the end rely on, rather than the organization/church/intermediary? You didn’t need an intermediary to receive that confirmation. That would be fair but absent the testimony of the apostles I doubt I would have it to rely on. I need something to confirm though and Priesthood leaders (and my parents) are often key intermediaries in that part. I also need the revelation from those who have that mantle and the keys of the Priesthood to strengthen my faith and to get General marching orders so I can integrate what I have been told into the greater whole of God’s work. They can also tell me the hard things I need to hear that I might more easily resist or be hurt by if given directly to me. They are also the ones who know in a way I do not yet know. I know but they KNOW. 2
JulieM Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: These kinds of groups almost always go bad. If I were the Bishop if I would have acted to shut it down but there also may have been more going on behind the scenes in this case that led to this decision. Well, first of all they weren’t successful at shutting it down. My sister politely and kindly explained that this book club was a group of women getting together on their own, in their own homes and having faithful discussions about topics of common interest. They were reading books that could be purchased at Deseret Books. They did listen to a set of podcasts on polygamy (year of polygamy or something like that?). But they had a rule to keep the discussion positive and faithful. So, this group still meets. What’s interesting is that the RS president told my sister that she’d love to join the group (and had wanted to for awhile), but didn’t dare to now. Edited June 27, 2018 by JulieM 1
The Nehor Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 Just now, JulieM said: Well, first of all they weren’t successful at shutting it down. My sister politely and kindly explained that this book club was a group of women getting together on their own, in their own homes and having faithful discussions about topics of common interest. They were reading books that could be purchased at Deseret Books. They did listen to a set of podcasts on polygamy (year of polygamy or something like that?). But they had a rule to keep the discussion positive and faithful. So, this group still meets. And they have every right to. The Bishop can advise them to shut it down but cannot and should not try to compel them. I just would not join such a group and if I were the Bishop I would turn on my Spidey-sense and pray nothing goes wrong. 1
RevTestament Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 2 hours ago, changed said: I am not sure why I am unable to "like" your posts? consider your post "loved". My fave AOF is: 9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. There is no need for leadership to try to define and dictate every last belief that everyone should have - leave some things ambiguous, leave some (most?) things as "not official church doctrine" - believe what you will on it. Allowing everyone personal exploration, and personal revelation - without controlling every last doctrine - that would be healthy for everyone I think. Amen to that. The reason you can't like her posts is she is limited - see below her avatar. I have expressed this is a frustration of mine. Some GA has said something about just about every last scripture. This leaves no room for other beliefs or growth, if one accepts all these declarations as scripture. I personally don't believe(I phrase it stronger - I know) that Yeshua died on this earth to atone for all other worlds. I don't believe that our Yeshua is the only Begotten Son the Father has ever had. He is the only Begotten Son of our Father, who is the Most High of this world. This idea leads to MMP, which currently is not an accepted doctrine of the Church. However, in MMPs there are many worlds and each had a Savior or only begotten Son. So the Son refers more to an office or calling rather than an individual. Indeed the NT teaches: Ephesians 1:18 18 The eyes of your aunderstanding being benlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the criches of the glory of his dinheritance in the saints,
JulieM Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 29 minutes ago, Tacenda said: You're right. In my sister-in-law's stake they were urged not to have Bunco groups by their SP. And it had nothing to do with the church by way of announcements etc. But he was the same guy who said they shouldn't have statues of Christ that was popular to get at Relief Society meetings at the time. https://ldsbookstore.com/lds-statues Every SP is different, and sometimes a little wacky. BTW, I would have loved to have been part of that book club your sister was in. I hope they were able to continue anyway. Me too! I am always envious when I hear what they are reading and discussing!!! Alas, she lives in another state 🙁 I’ve heard of bishops shutting down monthly bunco groups too. But then in other areas they still have them. Pretty inconsistent really. I’ve gone a few times to ours and had a blast!
The Nehor Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Amen to that. The reason you can't like her posts is she is limited - see below her avatar. I have expressed this is a frustration of mine. Some GA has said something about just about every last scripture. This leaves no room for other beliefs or growth, if one accepts all these declarations as scripture. I personally don't believe(I phrase it stronger - I know) that Yeshua died on this earth to atone for all other worlds. I don't believe that our Yeshua is the only Begotten Son the Father has ever had. He is the only Begotten Son of our Father, who is the Most High of this world. This idea leads to MMP, which currently is not an accepted doctrine of the Church. However, in MMPs there are many worlds and each had a Savior or only begotten Son. So the Son refers more to an office or calling rather than an individual. Indeed the NT teaches: Ephesians 1:18 18 The eyes of your aunderstanding being benlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the criches of the glory of his dinheritance in the saints, Try Ezekiel. Most are unwilling to touch some of those chapters.
RevTestament Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Try Ezekiel. Most are unwilling to touch some of those chapters. Hey Nehor. Can you be more specific? Would you be willing to discuss or list some of your "heretical views?" I will have to come back later though. I find Ezekiel to be a very prophetic book. It is second to isaiah in difficulty I think. I see it misinterpreted(imho of course) very often.
rockpond Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 21 hours ago, changed said: So... as I am going through this thing, seems like there are a lot of good support groups out there - addiction support group, spouse of addicts support groups, singles groups/ward, there are mothers groups, and etc. etc. etc. LGBT support group? there should be. Every ward has inactive members - how many inactives went through or are going through a faith crisis do you think? The only resources I have found for someone going through a crisis are anti-resources. I know about StayLDS but I don't want a forum, I want a face-2-face support group. What do you think of the idea? If it magically became a new church program or something, would you be excited about it? What would it look like? Would it be well attended? How to encourage people to attend? Good idea? I should tell my bishop he has to create on or I am leaving? haha - bad idea? The church does provide such support groups: Sunday School, Relief Society, and Elders Quorum. The support for those in a faith crisis should be coming from those groups. If there are topics you feel need to be covered in your ward, I would encourage you to bring those up with your SS/RS/EQ president. Outside of the church, Mormon Stories provides workshops and get togethers. If you want a non-church resource but want to stay active, check out the A Thoughtful Faith facebook group and look for others in your area. I found four fellow ward members and two previous ward members on A Thoughtful Faith FB group.
jkwilliams Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 Seems to me a person experiencing a faith crisis just needs a friend who won't judge them. Too often they find that only outside the church, with predictable results. 1
rockpond Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Seems to me a person experiencing a faith crisis just needs a friend who won't judge them. Too often they find that only outside the church, with predictable results. That's true... my experience and observation is that a common reaction among members falls in the "I don't want to know what you know" category. Meaning, that often the member doesn't want to discuss a fellow member's faith crisis because they don't want to find out whatever it was that caused the crisis. This leads to the member with the faith crisis feeling isolated, then ostracized, and then out of the church. * Note: I realize that I am preaching to the choir here as most participants on these boards are not afraid of the difficult doctrinal and historical issues. 1
cinepro Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, JAHS said: A ward support group might do more harm than good if several people bring up concerns that the other members didn't even consider or know about thus adding to and increasing their faith crisis. I think this is the key reason why such a group couldn't be supported. If you had 10 people in the group, each could bring up a different concern that the others aren't familiar with and suddenly the problem is 10x worse. It might work if the group is set up in the format of discussing a different Gospel Topics essay each meeting and it's kept on subject. Edited June 27, 2018 by cinepro 1
The Nehor Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 24 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Hey Nehor. Can you be more specific? Would you be willing to discuss or list some of your "heretical views?" I will have to come back later though. I find Ezekiel to be a very prophetic book. It is second to isaiah in difficulty I think. I see it misinterpreted(imho of course) very often. No, if I preach my heresy how can the Lord entrust me with more heresy? I find Isaiah easier then Ezekiel. There are a few sections of Ezekiel that I so far get nothing out of it. It is in the top three trippiest books in the Bible (with Revelation and Daniel).
Eek! Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, changed said: My fave AOF is: 9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. There is no need for leadership to try to define and dictate every last belief that everyone should have - leave some things ambiguous, leave some (most?) things as "not official church doctrine" - believe what you will on it. Allowing everyone personal exploration, and personal revelation - without controlling every last doctrine - that would be healthy for everyone I think. YESSS!! Note also that God's words are not confined to LDS scriptures: "Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. "For I command all men... that they shall write the words which I speak unto them... "For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it." Ever wonder what else God might have to say, beyond the four Standard Works? How would we recognize it without a General Authority to do the thinking for us? Well, the very first thing given to a person after Baptism is the Gift of the Holy Ghost. We already have everything we need to recognize truth, if we decide to go looking for it. Should we? The most oft-repeated injunction in the scriptures is some variation on this theme: "Seek, and ye shall find." Here we have one of the more complete versions: "For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come..." Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees after reading a scripture that assured him God would not be upset with him for seeking. Joseph sought, and by golly he found. And God has not changed since then. Edited June 27, 2018 by Eek! 1
The Nehor Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 1 minute ago, cinepro said: I think this is the key reason why such a group couldn't be supported. If you had 10 people in the group, each could bring up a different concern that the others aren't familiar with and suddenly the problem is 10x worse. It might work if the group is set up in the format of discussing a different Gospel Topics essay each meeting and it's kept on subject. That is the first 20 minutes of our Ward Council meetings. Our representative from the High Council is working us through the essays. Each essay takes 2 to 3 weeks on average.
jkwilliams Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 Just now, The Nehor said: That is the first 20 minutes of our Ward Council meetings. Our representative from the High Council is working us through the essays. Each essay takes 2 to 3 weeks on average. That's a positive sign. When I was going through my faith crisis, there wasn't anyone local I could turn to who was even familiar with the issues at all. I felt terribly alone and discouraged, and it would have helped to know that someone at least had some understanding of where I was coming from.
rockpond Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: That is the first 20 minutes of our Ward Council meetings. Our representative from the High Council is working us through the essays. Each essay takes 2 to 3 weeks on average. That is great to hear!
rockpond Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, cinepro said: I think this is the key reason why such a group couldn't be supported. If you had 10 people in the group, each could bring up a different concern that the others aren't familiar with and suddenly the problem is 10x worse. It might work if the group is set up in the format of discussing a different Gospel Topics essay each meeting and it's kept on subject. I don't disagree with this point but I think it reveals a significant problem that we face as a church... there are issues within our doctrine and history that are so troublesome that we can't even discuss them in a faithful environment without increasing the overall level of doubt. 3
CV75 Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: If the past is a truth indicator, it spells out that the apostles have shown to be wrong on a few, or many occasions. No middle man for me, no thanks. "A prophet does not stand between you and the Savior. Rather, he stands beside you and points the way to the Savior." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/04/the-prophet-of-god?lang=eng 1
juliann Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 1 hour ago, JulieM said: I agree we shouldn’t need permission, but it’s how we’re made to feel at times. My sister (who is very active in the church) began meeting with a group of other sisters (in her ward first and it has grown to others in her area joining) to discuss some church history books and they also read and discuss other books and topics. Some were very intellectual type sisters who taught college, etc. it was all done in a faithful manner but on the edge, I like would say (discussing some contraversial topics not discussed much at church such as polygamy). These were held in homes monthly and different books discussed. Nothing was ever publicized through church meetings for this group. One day the RS president came to my sister’s door and said she was in the area and wanted to say hi. It ended up being awkward (for the RS president and my sister), as it soon was made known she was really there on assignment (from the SP through the Bishop and then to the RS President). She started asking all kinds of questions about this book club and told my sister the Bishop had instructed her to tell my sister that she’s not to hold these meetings anymore. All women coming to the group are strong, active members too. So, yeah, we do feel we need permission when things like this happen. Yeah, I’m sure that happens. Unfortunately it only takes one control freak leader to ruin a ward. It’s probably easier for me as an older single with social capital (older folks tend to care less about what people think) but for me it boils down to they may come for you in the privacy of your own home but why go along with it? The RS Prez should have been the first to say no. She is there to lead and protect her women, not do contract hits for a SP who may not even know all those women. We can’t blame the church when we go along with these intrusions. Yeah, there may be a price to pay until new leadership comes in but it is worth it to protect important things. I had a VT who asked me one too many “none of your business” questions and I asked for a reassignment. 1
JAHS Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 7 minutes ago, rockpond said: I don't disagree with this point but I think it reveals a significant problem that we face as a church... there are issues within our doctrine and history that are so troublesome that we can't even discuss them in a faithful environment without increasing the overall level of doubt. The concern might be that many issues are suddenly dumped on members with weak testimonies in a short period of time and they become overwhelmed. I learned of various issues over my entire life and have had time to study and pray about each one, one at a time and resolve them to my satisfaction. 1
juliann Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) Nehor,I know stuff like that happens but those types of things have no relationship to study groups. I suspect that level of deviation from church practice results in these members separating themselves out. And frankly, if others want to join in, oh well. We once had a seemingly committed young family move to Manti for some break off group. Never would have guessed. They are divorced last I heard. I had a friend’s family suddenly up and move to Missouri during the last contagious God told me to revival. Of course, leaving good career, home, support system for small town was a bust. They left the church. Edited June 27, 2018 by juliann
CV75 Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, JAHS said: The concern might be that many issues are suddenly dumped on members with weak testimonies in a short period of time and they become overwhelmed. I learned of various issues over my entire life and have had time to study and pray about each one, one at a time and resolve them to my satisfaction. I think this might get to a point being made in this article: https://www.lds.org/church/news/many-struggles-with-faith-are-based-on-mormon-culture-not-doctrine-professor-says?lang=eng There is a difference between cultural Mormonism and doctrinal Mormonism and how they are navigated and balanced at various stages and areas of personal development. It may all be fundamentally spiritual, but often very temporal/physical/emotional/mental things affect spirituality. This article happens to focus on black-and-white thinking and perfectionism. His advice: "Having questions is normal ...but it’s important to face them head on and address them early to avoid the risk of becoming cynical." It is a very narrow point in all that a faith crisis might entail, but indicates that turning to those with the keys (even if it is only by taking the sacrament or reading the scriptures) is "key."
CV75 Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, juliann said: Nehor,I know stuff like that happens but those types of things have no relationship to study groups. I suspect that level of deviation from church practice results in these members separating themselves out. And frankly, if others want to join in, oh well. We once had a seemingly committed young family move to Manti for some break off group. Never would have guessed. They are divorced last I heard. I had a friend’s family suddenly up and move to Missouri during the last contagious God told me to revival. Of course, leaving good career, home, support system for small town was a bust. They left the church. I see study groups as having great potential for social and cultural support in balancing cultural and doctrinal Mormonism (referencing the article I mentioned above). I think it rare (maybe I'm an optimist!) that the participants not recognize the potential limitations beyond that. But connections between individuals within the group can certainly be faith-nourishing, at least contributing to a faith-nourishing environment (interal and external). Edited June 27, 2018 by CV75 1
rockpond Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think this might get to a point being made in this article: https://www.lds.org/church/news/many-struggles-with-faith-are-based-on-mormon-culture-not-doctrine-professor-says?lang=eng There is a difference between cultural Mormonism and doctrinal Mormonism and how they are navigated and balanced at various stages and areas of personal development. It may all be fundamentally spiritual, but often very temporal/physical/emotional/mental things affect spirituality. This article happens to focus on black-and-white thinking and perfectionism. His advice: "Having questions is normal ...but it’s important to face them head on and address them early to avoid the risk of becoming cynical." It is a very narrow point in all that a faith crisis might entail, but indicates that turning to those with the keys (even if it is only by taking the sacrament or reading the scriptures) is "key." I think I agree with Braithwaite, here's one quote from the article you linked above: Quote Most people, according to Braithwaite, remain throughout their lives in Fowler’s stage three faith, which is a synthetic-conventional faith characterized by conformity to authority, a strong cultural element to religious life, an “us versus the world” perspective, and ignoring any conflicts with one’s beliefs due to the fear of threat from inconsistencies. “Stage three faith I think opens you up to being the most vulnerable to a faith crisis because it establishes a set of expectations that are impossible to achieve,” Braithwaite said. “They live in a world that’s binary: it’s black and white, where the Church is all good and couldn’t possibly do anything not good, and the world is wicked and bad.” If I understand him correctly, Braithwaite attributes this to "cultural Mormonism". But what he describes as Fowler's stage 3 seems to be what is preached from our pulpits (including gen con) and what is expected from members. I don't really see church leaders wanting members to move into stage 4. For me, stage 4 was tough on my church membership and tough on my relationships with family. Stage 5 has been easier but I have to keep most things to myself.
cinepro Posted June 27, 2018 Posted June 27, 2018 31 minutes ago, JAHS said: The concern might be that many issues are suddenly dumped on members with weak testimonies in a short period of time and they become overwhelmed. I learned of various issues over my entire life and have had time to study and pray about each one, one at a time and resolve them to my satisfaction. That's great for you, but I'm pretty sure there are members of the Church that only remain members because they don't know certain things. That was obviously the dilemma the Church faced for the first ~10 years of the internet. They knew there were a certain number of people who were going to leave over stuff like the truth about polygamy or The Book of Mormon "translation," regardless of how it was presented. But there were also people who could accept those things if they learned about them from a faithful source and were able to integrate them into their view of the Church. I suspect it was only when they realized that there was no way to hide the info any longer that the "inoculation" approach had to be embraced with the Gospel Topics essays. We'll still lose people, but the math (and the hope) must work out to fewer people.
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