"Faith Crisis" support group?

[rockpond]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There is this we should consider....

We may not be agreeing on what it means to come between the person and the Lord. Someone has to receive the revelation, someone has to preach it, someone has to administer the ordinances. I don't know where a podcaster fits in.

 

The podcasters aren't claiming to receive revelation, preach, nor administer ordinances.

Are we, as Latter-day Saints, not permitted to seek knowledge and learning from anyone other than those who have the keys?  Should we only read book, listen to panels, and watch documentaries that are published through the Brethren?

Listening to a podcast is just a means of study and learning.  I'm not sure why you feel that it somehow comes between an individual and the Lord.

[SouthernMo]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If the person seems still interested in the party’s positions and you think persuasion will work sure. If they are convinced they are right, why should I try to convince to belong to an organization that conflicts with their beliefs? That does not sound healthy at all.

Rationalize your position how you need to to feel comfortable with yourself, but it’s clear you believe the LDS church should be more exclusive, and less inviting than I do.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Then when is the Second Coming?  

In a few years.  

(If you mean when He will come in the clouds)1

[CV75]

3 hours ago, rockpond said:

Perhaps you would like to explain how "follow the prophet", all true or all fraud, and "trust us" messages fit with the openness to complexity and awareness of conflicts in Stage 4?  Or, the "complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent "truth" that cannot be explained by any particular statement" of Stage 5?

Matching up a spiritual message to a psychological model would be similar to matching it up to a human development model. How does a person learn and live principle X as an infant, a child, in adolescence and adulthood (and the early, mid- and late stages within each)? What does it mean to a person in each of these stages to learn and live (for example) the principle or commandment, “Be ye clean?” That is how a concept fits to a stage within any developmental model.

And given that my model of how we fit spiritual things into secular models has limitations also, and at risk of giving an over-simplified explanation of a complex relationship: People at stage 4 will take the three phrases you offered as good-faith invitations, and weigh and act on them in the optimistically cautious hope for the anticipated results; those at stage 5 will understand them in context of the greater whole of LDS teachings and personal life experience and integrate them into a satisfying working model of progress. People at stage 6 will graciously receive them as Christ would and exemplify their charitable application in blessing all of God's children.

Edited June 29, 2018 by CV75

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/26/2018 at 5:16 PM, Tacenda said:

I think it could help a lot of people stay in the church. I needed someone to talk to about my crisis, and ended up going to StayLDS.com. It was okay. Then I tried NewOrderMormon, and it was okay because it led me to be able to talk face to face to someone nearby in my hometown. I would have loved something in the church for this. I had not a soul I dared talk to. Because it might open the door for them to go into a crisis as well. But if we had some LDS that were aware of the situation and could help, why not?

It's the hardest thing I've ever had to go through in my life. People of faith, that have never experienced probably won't understand. So maybe someone that's been there done that? 

If you are in my area I would love to meet and talk! PM me if that works. 

 

I like your courage. I also hope you are not having assumptions most of these groups/people are trying to pull you out of the church. John Dehlin's organizations wouldn't have this as motive. 

But the pitfall for anybody is this; Most of the things will be heard sound like Anti Mormon stuff. 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Do you mean "tangerine"?

No, lol!

[2BizE]

Here is a good support group for faith crisis

https://newordermormon.net/index.php?sid=35301736b724d4bc49f1b62528ae2a6d

[JulieM]

25 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Here is a good support group for faith crisis

https://newordermormon.net/index.php?sid=35301736b724d4bc49f1b62528ae2a6d

I actually enjoy reading their views on that forum sometimes!  It’s respectful and more positive.  There are so many there in the middle of a faith crisis, but who are still attending and trying to stay active.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

All organizations are imperfect.  The only way for any community to remain stable, is if everyone is able to stay together despite imperfections.  An imperfect marriage, working for an imperfect company, or an imperfect church - it is ok not to be perfect.

In this imperfect world, there is no perfect unity with anything or any one.  There is only forgiveness, and the ability to embrace diversity.  

I don’t want theological diversity when I go to church. I like meeting people with diverse backgrounds and experiences but I like a unifying faith. Maybe that makes me a bigot but I think I am okay with that.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Rationalize your position how you need to to feel comfortable with yourself, but it’s clear you believe the LDS church should be more exclusive, and less inviting than I do.

Because people should not feel comfortable attending meetings that disagree strongly with what they believe. I would feel uncomfortable at a Nazi rally for instance. Now I can see guests attending somewhere without being uncomfortable. I can go to a Catholic Mass without feeling weird as a visitor but going every Sunday and pretending to be one of them while I think everyone around me is a godless papist would be unhealthy.

Many attend the LDS meetings without believing. Investigators, people coming in support of a spouse or other family, or whatever is fine but pretending you are unified with people meeting about something they are unified about when you are not seems....weird.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

In a few years.  

(If you mean when He will come in the clouds)1

I need something a little more exact then what everyone has been saying since 34 AD.

[SouthernMo]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because people should not feel comfortable attending meetings that disagree strongly with what they believe. I would feel uncomfortable at a Nazi rally for instance. Now I can see guests attending somewhere without being uncomfortable. I can go to a Catholic Mass without feeling weird as a visitor but going every Sunday and pretending to be one of them while I think everyone around me is a godless papist would be unhealthy.

Many attend the LDS meetings without believing. Investigators, people coming in support of a spouse or other family, or whatever is fine but pretending you are unified with people meeting about something they are unified about when you are not seems....weird.

I’m trying hard to see your position here. But, you lost me when you declared that you see Catholics as godless papists. I see so little love in your words. Hard to see Christ in what you say.

[Hamba Tuhan]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t want theological diversity when I go to church.

Moses 7:18 springs to mind ...

[Tacenda]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because people should not feel comfortable attending meetings that disagree strongly with what they believe. I would feel uncomfortable at a Nazi rally for instance. Now I can see guests attending somewhere without being uncomfortable. I can go to a Catholic Mass without feeling weird as a visitor but going every Sunday and pretending to be one of them while I think everyone around me is a godless papist would be unhealthy.

Many attend the LDS meetings without believing. Investigators, people coming in support of a spouse or other family, or whatever is fine but pretending you are unified with people meeting about something they are unified about when you are not seems....weird.

Not when it's been your culture since birth, since when does anyone care about the doctrines really until they have a crisis. All my life it was basically the social, service and fun times that were wonderful. Now that I know the deep doctrine, or the meat, it's difficult. But they're still my, oft used word, tribe. ETA: And the closeness to the Saviour, the belief in a hereafter, so not just social stuff. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not when it's been your culture since birth, since when does anyone care about the doctrines really until they have a crisis.

Where I live, most Saints have not been a part of the Church 'since birth'.

I can't speak for any of them, but I can speak for myself: the centre of my membership is the doctrines and the practical implications of those doctrines in my life. To me, the rich, warm, supportive community is just a natural outgrowth of what we all believe together.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Where I live, most Saints have not been a part of the Church 'since birth'.

I can't speak for any of them, but I can speak for myself: the centre of my membership is the doctrines and the practical implications of those doctrines in my life. To me, the rich, warm, supportive community is just a natural outgrowth of what we all believe together.

I edited my post right after you posted. I added the love of the Saviour and the afterlife beliefs meant a great deal. Before my crisis, it was a given though and I never doubted. Now's the time I need actual faith, more than I've ever had to have before. In fact it just dawned on me. Why am I calling it a faith crisis? It should be called a faith instigator! 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Now's the time I need actual faith, more than I've ever had to have it before. In fact it just dawned on me. Why am I calling it a faith crisis? It should be called a faith instigator! 

 The doctrines of the Restoration are sweet ... but so much sweeter when we have the faith to fully embrace them and really apply them. Everything changes at that point. The heavens open. The angels cannot be restrained from being our associates.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I need something a little more exact then what everyone has been saying since 34 AD.

94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.

95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall comeforth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m trying hard to see your position here. But, you lost me when you declared that you see Catholics as godless papists. I see so little love in your words. Hard to see Christ in what you say.

That was a joke.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not when it's been your culture since birth, since when does anyone care about the doctrines really until they have a crisis. All my life it was basically the social, service and fun times that were wonderful. Now that I know the deep doctrine, or the meat, it's difficult. But they're still my, oft used word, tribe. ETA: And the closeness to the Saviour, the belief in a hereafter, so not just social stuff. 

Yeah, I have cared and continue to care deeply about the doctrines so I cannot empathize here.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.

95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall comeforth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

So......next year?

[JulieM]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, I have cared and continue to care deeply about the doctrines so I cannot empathize here.

That’s great that you do, but people go to church for a variety of reasons.  For some it’s their community and they love the feelings of friendship or family where they feel loved and welcomed.  I’m not sure your attitude is one that Christ would have (maybe I’m misunderstanding your attitude on this thread because it seems out of character for you 😕).

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, rockpond said:

The podcasters aren't claiming to receive revelation, preach, nor administer ordinances.

Are we, as Latter-day Saints, not permitted to seek knowledge and learning from anyone other than those who have the keys?  Should we only read book, listen to panels, and watch documentaries that are published through the Brethren?

Listening to a podcast is just a means of study and learning.  I'm not sure why you feel that it somehow comes between an individual and the Lord.

I have explained it with scriptural references. Depends on the intention of the podcaster, the desire of his/her heart. Maybe substitute advisor for podcaster to include other folks.

God calls a prophet and reveals His will to him, the prophet preaches it to the people, the people hear, the Spirit bears witness, and they believe. Along comes some adversity that shakes their faith. Could be death, betrayal, offense, sin, unexpected information, whatever. The prophet’s answers are unsatisfactory or offensive to the people. Enter the advisor. What is his/her role, and what is the expected result? For example, the support group of the OP, the advisor who hears the complaints and suggests the remedies. To what end?

So, what are they claiming? Superior knowledge, greater empathy, a better pipeline to God, a filter and cleanser for the words of the prophet, a side link to God, a sympathetic listening ear, something else?

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[rockpond]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Matching up a spiritual message to a psychological model would be similar to matching it up to a human development model. How does a person learn and live principle X as an infant, a child, in adolescence and adulthood (and the early, mid- and late stages within each)? What does it mean to a person in each of these stages to learn and live (for example) the principle or commandment, “Be ye clean?” That is how a concept fits to a stage within any developmental model.

And given that my model of how we fit spiritual things into secular models has limitations also, and at risk of giving an over-simplified explanation of a complex relationship: People at stage 4 will take the three phrases you offered as good-faith invitations, and weigh and act on them in the optimistically cautious hope for the anticipated results; those at stage 5 will understand them in context of the greater whole of LDS teachings and personal life experience and integrate them into a satisfying working model of progress. People at stage 6 will graciously receive them as Christ would and exemplify their charitable application in blessing all of God's children.

Yes, people in stages 4, 5, and 6 can take those teachings and make them fit within a stage 4/5/6 faith.  But those phrases don’t encourage advancement from stage 3, they encourage members to stay in stage 3.  All true or all a fraud is decidedly anti-stage 4.  Being told to just “trust us”, follow the prophet, and stay in the boat doesn’t inherently help one into stage 4 or beyond.  It tells one that the way to remain safe in their salvation is to maintain a stage 3 faith. 

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have explained it with scriptural references. Depends on the intention of the podcaster. The desire of his/her heart.

You didn’t answer my question but that’s okay, I find your position on this to be unsupportable... simply a cheap attack on podcasters, many of whom have noble motivations.