Bernard Gui Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, rockpond said: Nope. I don’t think you could find a Mormon-themed podcast listener who would agree with such a conclusion. Although, if a podcast better led someone to Jesus, that wouldn’t be a bad thing. My point was that some folks don’t want a bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet to stand between them and Jesus, but they will settle for a podcaster to take that position. There are examples of that on this board....even in this discussion. Edited June 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
rockpond Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: My point was that some folks don’t want a bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet to stand between them and Jesus, but they will settle for a podcaster to take that position. I don't know of anyone who wants a podcaster, bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet to stand between them and Jesus. I would hope that nobody feels such a need.
Tacenda Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, rockpond said: I don't know of anyone who wants a podcaster, bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet to stand between them and Jesus. I would hope that nobody feels such a need. I know, pretty strange that if it isn't an apostle or some leader, it must be a podcast! 🙄 What is the need to have something between, as if we aren't able to get that knowledge on our own. Sure, it's great to be motivated by someone/something but it shouldn't have authority to speak for the Lord. That is a dangerous line to walk, giving up something of ourselves and having to believe someone over our own thoughts and conviction. Because someone else supposedly knows better or has a better channel to God.
Bernard Gui Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: I don't know of anyone who wants a podcaster, bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet to stand between them and Jesus. I would hope that nobody feels such a need. I understand your point; nevertheless, we see it played out regularly here.
rockpond Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I understand your point; nevertheless, we see it played out regularly here. Where have you seen someone wanting to put a podcaster between themselves and Jesus? Can you give me an example of this because I've been listening to LDS themed podcasts for years, I've been involved in online podcast communities, and I have friends and family members who listen as well... and the idea you are suggesting seems completely foreign to me. Edited June 28, 2018 by rockpond
rockpond Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I know, pretty strange that if it isn't an apostle or some leader, it must be a podcast! 🙄 What is the need to have something between, as if we aren't able to get that knowledge on our own. Sure, it's great to be motivated by someone/something but it shouldn't have authority to speak for the Lord. That is a dangerous line to walk, giving up something of ourselves and having to believe someone over our own thoughts and conviction. Because someone else supposedly knows better or has a better channel to God. Perhaps I have misunderstood what Bernard is saying. He seems to feel that we see it "played out regularly here" but I am not aware of anyone here who is putting a man (apostle or podcaster) between them and the Lord.
Tacenda Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 1 minute ago, rockpond said: Perhaps I have misunderstood what Bernard is saying. He seems to feel that we see it "played out regularly here" but I am not aware of anyone here who is putting a man (apostle or podcaster) between them and the Lord. I know what he's talking about, I've mentioned time and again that I don't want a middle man between me and the Saviour. Yet I listen to podcasts everyday. So people like me, that don't want a middle man, yet listen to podcasts all day. But I don't believe podcasts have the answers like from God or anything.
Eek! Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, changed said: My loyalties will now lie with principles - what brings peace, joy, progression, togetherness... things that isolate, vs. things that bring people together. If it aligns with those principles, great! If it does not, then count me out. YESSS! Imo correct principles are what matters, not the ecclesiastical rank of the speaker. And given correct principles, we can govern ourselves. <-- This is a correct principle taught by Joseph Smith, though his wording was a little different. I believe correct principles are true "keys", whose possession and exercise are not limited to a select few. Imo there is some very worthwhile reading on the subject of principles here: http://www.freeread.com/category/teachings/principles-2/ Edited June 28, 2018 by Eek! 2
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 1 hour ago, changed said: Not glorifying it, just being honest about it. We believe in being honest.... Yes, but does it really need saying as if it is some great discovery. “I don’t know most things” is such an obvious statement that I wonder why so many imagine it is a mark of progress.
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 1 hour ago, SouthernMo said: Why would you say this? If you believe the church is true, why goad someone into leaving it? Aren’t we supppsed to invite others to come to Christ? Why divide when we could unite? Why leave the Church if I believe it is fallen? Because it is fallen. Why would I stay in some misguided attempt at unity? Do you also believe one should support a political party or charitable group when your beliefs are opposed to them? We are supposed to achieve unity in the LDS gospel but unity in the faith.
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Eek! said: Not sure what the percentage is that I doubt. Imo Christ has been more active in working through channels other than the LDS church since time of Joseph Smith. One of Joseph Smith's superpowers was, once he learned something, he was still totally open to the possibility that there may be something higher and perhaps totally different yet to be learned. Christ works through seekers. "Seek and ye shall find" doesn't have an expiration date. There is no reason why Christ cannot work through channels other than the leadership of the LDS church, and imo it makes sense that he would. I need a new Order that will succeed where the Danites failed. Would you lead it? We could even name it after you. Pretty sure you do not want to recreate the order of Nehor what with the whole murdering people thing. Of course Christ is working through other conduits and is doing all kinds of things. Is that even in question? I am just gullible enough to believe the prophet has and uses all Priesthood keys putting him in a station of leadership unequaled by any other earthly individual or organization. I do believe there are other higher channels. They include the Holy Ghost, personal manifestations of God, and the like. I have some of that and want more. 1
SouthernMo Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 32 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Do you also believe one should support a political party or charitable group when your beliefs are opposed to them? To further your analogy, I think that when a political party member disagrees with many of the party members, the rest of the many would do well to love him, work with him, show him the “error of his ways”, and teach him, rather than tell him to go join (or start) another party.
Bernard Gui Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 57 minutes ago, rockpond said: Where have you seen someone wanting to put a podcaster between themselves and Jesus? Can you give me an example of this because I've been listening to LDS themed podcasts for years, I've been involved in online podcast communities, and I have friends and family members who listen as well... and the idea you are suggesting seems completely foreign to me. I won't name names, but in this discussion some have expressed dissatisfaction with the responses of their priesthood leaders to their crises of faith (some of which come from supposed problems created by apostles and prophets), but welcome advice from podcasters, some of whom are eager to jump in and offer their services. In this way, a podcaster comes between the person and the Lord, becoming His advocate and spokesperson, taking the place of legitimate priesthood leaders. It works both ways. Many times in a crisis of faith, we look for answers from others when study and prayer don't seem to work. Sometimes those others are family or faithful members, sometimes they are not, sometimes they are going through a similar crisis, sometimes they are antagonistic to the Church, sometimes they are dissidents who seek others to join them. I have been in this situation myself, on both sides of the desk. In any case, instead of going to the source, we go to someone we seem to want to trust more. That's the way I see it.
Bernard Gui Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, rockpond said: I don't know of anyone who wants a podcaster, bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet to stand between them and Jesus. I would hope that nobody feels such a need. There is this we should consider.... Quote Romans 10: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”f 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” 16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. We may not be agreeing on what it means to come between the person and the Lord. Someone has to receive the revelation, someone has to preach it, someone has to administer the ordinances. I don't know where a podcaster fits in. Quote Exodus 4: 11The Lord said to him, “Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say.” 13But Moses said, “Pardon your servant, Lord. Please send someone else.” 14Then the Lord’s anger burned against Moses and he said, “What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and he will be glad to see you. 15You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. 16He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.” Edited June 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui
Eek! Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Pretty sure you do not want to recreate the order of Nehor what with the whole murdering people thing. I chose as my moniker a purple cartoon cat whose swear-word of choice is "kumbaya". Murder is actually pretty far down on my bucket list. 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I am just gullible enough to believe the prophet has and uses all Priesthood keys putting him in a station of leadership unequaled by any other earthly individual or organization. I do believe there are other higher channels. They include the Holy Ghost, personal manifestations of God, and the like. I have some of that and want more. I'm gullible enough to believe that you are right where you're supposed to be. (There is no sarcasm in that statement - I really mean it. I believe Earth is a school and not everyone takes the same classes, at least not at the same time.) Good for you, for relying on the Spirit. That is much more intelligent than putting your faith in the assurances of church leaders that God will not allow them to lead the people astray, which of course is circular reasoning. In my experience the Spirit may tell you where the next rung on the ladder is, but at some point it may tell you of yet another rung higher up. What you need to do to ace your classes may differ in some ways from what I believe I need to do to ace mine. Or to put it another way, you and I both claim the privilege of worshipping almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men that same privilege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may. Edited June 28, 2018 by Eek!
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 47 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: To further your analogy, I think that when a political party member disagrees with many of the party members, the rest of the many would do well to love him, work with him, show him the “error of his ways”, and teach him, rather than tell him to go join (or start) another party. If the person seems still interested in the party’s positions and you think persuasion will work sure. If they are convinced they are right, why should I try to convince to belong to an organization that conflicts with their beliefs? That does not sound healthy at all. 1
CV75 Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 3 hours ago, rockpond said: I agree... if you are at stage 4 or 5, you'll hear and interpret messages at that stage of faith. But when the Brethren preach messages such as "follow the prophet", all true or all a fraud, and "trust us" they are teaching a message to STAY at stage 3. Those are stage 3 ideals. Are there members in stage 4 and 5? Yes. Will they hear and interpret those messages differently? Yes. Do correlated church materials teach a stage 3 belief? Yes. Do the Brethren want members to move beyond a stage 3 faith? I don't think they do. No way Jose... These are as much stage 3 ideals to a stage 3 person as they are stage 6 ideals to a stage 6 person. On top of that, one person can hear the Brethren encourage him to stay where he is in his faith; another can hear the Brethren encourage others, but not himself, to improve or not; and another can hear the Brethren encourage everyone to progress in their faith from wherever they happen to be standing at the moment. It seems to me that each of the Brethren is preaching the Gospel message from his respective developmental stage, as no one has the choice to do otherwise. You can’t be what you aren’t, only become what you aren’t later. The members are hearing it in like fashion, and for the same reason. On top of that, the Brethren frame and deliver the Gospel message (doctrines, covenants, ordinances, revelations, etc.) with the keys they possess, and the members benefit from the exercise of those keys according to the light they are able and willing to receive. 2
Tacenda Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) deleted, don't want to go off on a tangent Edited June 28, 2018 by Tacenda
CV75 Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 57 minutes ago, Tacenda said: deleted, don't want to go off on a tangent Do you mean "tangerine"?
changed Posted June 28, 2018 Author Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Why leave the Church if I believe it is fallen? Because it is fallen. Why would I stay in some misguided attempt at unity? Do you also believe one should support a political party or charitable group when your beliefs are opposed to them? We are supposed to achieve unity in the LDS gospel but unity in the faith. All organizations are imperfect. The only way for any community to remain stable, is if everyone is able to stay together despite imperfections. An imperfect marriage, working for an imperfect company, or an imperfect church - it is ok not to be perfect. In this imperfect world, there is no perfect unity with anything or any one. There is only forgiveness, and the ability to embrace diversity. Edited June 28, 2018 by changed
changed Posted June 28, 2018 Author Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: Same here! But it only partially filled my need for some communication of the difficult subjects in the church. I had no one, not even my husband because those discussions turned to arguing and left me in tears and my husband wondering if I already had Alzheimer's. Luckily he and I are on the same page now. I don't fit in with the women surrounding me as well, since my hobbies are not decorating, crafting, clothes shopping or whatever. My hobby now is discussing the church pretty much. The women around me are not into doing that at all, so it is a pretty lonesome road. I do try to fit in and act like I like sewing, crafting, decorating and shopping. I really want to get back to those things and reading a book that has nothing to do with Mormonism. Light and fluffy sounds a whole lot less stressful vs. worrying about my salvation, or if there is life after death, or worrying about losing so much if I show my true identity. I wish I was in your area, we would fit well with one another. I do not fit in well either... I am a female who works full time, as an engineer :)... I remember meeting our HTers, picture Sunday afternoon, the HTers are walking up in their Sunday best, and I happen to drive up at the same time... after working a construction site, in steel-toed boots and hard hat, blue jeans... had ditched church yea, not the typical LDS wife. ok - I really do work ft - actually on overload right now... need to get back to work Edited June 28, 2018 by changed
changed Posted June 28, 2018 Author Posted June 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: My point was that some folks don’t want a bishop, stake president, apostle, or prophet to stand between them and Jesus, but they will settle for a podcaster to take that position. There are examples of that on this board....even in this discussion. The podcasters don't stand between anyone and anyone else - they try to stand "with" people. "with" - not in front of "with" - they ask questions, listen to people's stories, and try to see those around them "face-to-face". ... if you want to experience what being "united" is, I think the podcasters are onto something. 2
CV75 Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 55 minutes ago, changed said: The podcasters don't stand between anyone and anyone else - they try to stand "with" people. "with" - not in front of "with" - they ask questions, listen to people's stories, and try to see those around them "face-to-face". ... if you want to experience what being "united" is, I think the podcasters are onto something. The trick, I think, is to be united under the keys. I'm assuming these podcasts to which you are referring to are not are not operating under the keys. Which isn't terrible in and of itself, but there is something fuller lacking. Which isn't terrible either if those who turn to these for comfort can still unite with those who have the keys and unite with the those who have the keys. It's not like people in a faith crisis have to choose sides.
rockpond Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I won't name names, but in this discussion some have expressed dissatisfaction with the responses of their priesthood leaders to their crises of faith (some of which come from supposed problems created by apostles and prophets), but welcome advice from podcasters, some of whom are eager to jump in and offer their services. In this way, a podcaster comes between the person and the Lord, becoming His advocate and spokesperson, taking the place of legitimate priesthood leaders. It works both ways. Many times in a crisis of faith, we look for answers from others when study and prayer don't seem to work. Sometimes those others are family or faithful members, sometimes they are not, sometimes they are going through a similar crisis, sometimes they are antagonistic to the Church, sometimes they are dissidents who seek others to join them. I have been in this situation myself, on both sides of the desk. In any case, instead of going to the source, we go to someone we seem to want to trust more. That's the way I see it. The part above that I put in bold is an unfounded conclusion on your part: Listening to a podcast to gain knowledge, insight, and a different perspective is not equivalent to letting the podcaster become ones advocate and spokesperson. You'll have to provide some additional evidence to support that leap.
rockpond Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 2 hours ago, CV75 said: No way Jose... These are as much stage 3 ideals to a stage 3 person as they are stage 6 ideals to a stage 6 person. On top of that, one person can hear the Brethren encourage him to stay where he is in his faith; another can hear the Brethren encourage others, but not himself, to improve or not; and another can hear the Brethren encourage everyone to progress in their faith from wherever they happen to be standing at the moment. It seems to me that each of the Brethren is preaching the Gospel message from his respective developmental stage, as no one has the choice to do otherwise. You can’t be what you aren’t, only become what you aren’t later. The members are hearing it in like fashion, and for the same reason. On top of that, the Brethren frame and deliver the Gospel message (doctrines, covenants, ordinances, revelations, etc.) with the keys they possess, and the members benefit from the exercise of those keys according to the light they are able and willing to receive. Perhaps you would like to explain how "follow the prophet", all true or all fraud, and "trust us" messages fit with the openness to complexity and awareness of conflicts in Stage 4? Or, the "complex understanding of a multidimensional, interdependent "truth" that cannot be explained by any particular statement" of Stage 5?
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