Guest Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 21 hours ago, changed said: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/08/24/why-americas-nones-left-religion-behind/ ...are opposed to organized religion (22%) http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/06/more-americans-now-say-theyre-spiritual-but-not-religious/ About a quarter of U.S. adults (27%) now say they think of themselves as spiritual but not religious interesting. Those "opposed to organized religion" might like Mormonism as most of the local leaders are volunteers and not paid - which makes it feel a little less "organized". Would the church welcome those who are "spiritual but not religious"? Most who speak of being opposed to "organized religion", have never been part of one. As such they are explaining why they don't go to Church at all. Others, who believe that "by grace alone they are completely saved", to the point of believing that being a member of a Church serves no purpose, other than maybe social reasons, so they need never go back. I think the number one reason for most Mormons to leave, is just getting out of the habit, and then after long periods when no one looks them up, they just leave for good. My Ward has had so many bounty changes, a merging with other Wards as of late, many who I attended Church with 30+ just fell through the cracks. Others not liking the changes, just stopped coming. Most people I ever go out and meet before the last Quorum changes told us, "I still consider myself Mormon, but all my kids are grown, all my friends have moved and we don't feel a part". Usually the purpose of support groups is that all, or almost all share the same issues, and in the case of inactive members, the reasons will be many.
JAHS Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 37 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Part of an LDS faith crisis is finding answers and reshaping one’s paradigm. Part of the crisis is wondering if one still belongs. The problem is that there are no answers right now to some of the questions and inconsistancie. You may be asking for more than anyone can give you.
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: This is good, except why just the ward council and not the ward? I think the adults in general will only hear if they have youth in seminary, since I guess they are teaching them there. Pretty lame that they don't trust the adults in some wards. When I asked my current bishop in my new ward if there was anyone for a person like me to talk to face to face he didn't reply back to me, he just brings up the head in the hat thing being similar to our having a cell phone in our day. I just wish they'd give us a break, if the leaders believe this church is true, nothing should be able to harm it in their minds. Of course, I once heard the leaders themselves are just learning these things. When? Priesthood and Relief Society have their curriculum already. So does Sunday School. Maybe 5th Sundays? I also think these presentations would take longer with an involved and more interactive audience but since our Ward Council meetings are at 7 AM.......
SouthernMo Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 15 minutes ago, JAHS said: The problem is that there are no answers right now to some of the questions and inconsistancie. You may be asking for more than anyone can give you. Partially true. There may not be revealed, correlated answers (yet). That doesn’t mean we can’t find our own answers. Part of the solution is to stop looking for church leaders to have the answers to our faith crises.
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 5 hours ago, changed said: This is why I am "half" in - there are some things I have a testimony in, and other things I do not. Pushing everyone to testify they believe in every last thing from the get-go denies everyone the chance to honestly take their testimony one step at a time - to naturally grow "line upon line, precept upon precept". Let people be "here a little and there a little" - not pushed "all in" to the deep end of the pool where they will drown. I do not understand that approach. One of the main logical realities of the gospel is that if Jesus was who he said he was and that Joseph Smith had the experiences and received the powers and knowledge he did then how do you accept half and reject the other? I do understand that people grow in their testimony of certain principles. It wasn't until my 30s that I really grasped fasting and got a testimony of what it could do but because I accepted the gospel I did it anyways. This approach seems like it is designed to illogically justify a "cafeteria Mormon" approach in perpetuity. 5 hours ago, changed said: Haha - great stories! If nothing "official" is created, the "unofficial" groups will fill the need.... by not creating something "official" then.... Yeah, the unofficial ones will form as people create them but if I was the Church leadership I would not want to be responsible for such a group so that is probably for the best.
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: He is capable of anything right? Perhaps ironically, I feel I know Revelation and Daniel like the back of my hand. But, I admit that Ezekiel is a challenge still. I am going to have to spend some time on it, and devote prayer to it. It is a much neglected book. God confines Himself to certain rules in regards to how he interferes in this world. The whole "law irrevocably decreed in heaven" thing. I know them pretty well but I still think they are trippy. Beasts and dragons both with improbable numbers of horns and crowns.....good fun.
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 4 hours ago, rockpond said: I agree with what you've written here. My point is that, whether you call it Mormon culture or Mormon doctrine, it seems to me that the Brethren are encouraging members to stay in stage 3... the message is "follow the prophet", "all true or all a fraud", and "trust us". I think the predominant message we get from the correlated material and the conference center pulpit is to stay in the stage 3 boat. From my perspective, the stage 4/5 message is relegated to the not-so-public Givens/Bushman firesides. I am not sure I buy the stages at all. I think the next proper spiritual stage beyond the so-called "follow the prophet" stage is to continue following the prophet while developing your own spiritual gifts and knowledge to the point that you receive more and more light granted due to your faithfulness until the "perfect day". This does tend to lead to a loss of dogmatism. Not because you are wrong but because being dogmatic about your own preconceptions, rationalizations, and conclusions can blind you to further revelation and knowledge. It is also the stage where obedience (I am told) ceases to be a burden and becomes a quest but I have not gotten that far yet. 2
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 4 hours ago, DBMormon said: I wish such a thing existed. It doesn't nor ever will for several reasons - The rabbit hole goes forever. meaning that anytime you get together with others to digest and reconcile the tough issues, the continued ongoing discovery of new issues that are problematic goes forever. This means generally that if the church makes a safe space for the focus to be on discussing the issues, everyone is going to discover more and more issues. Seriously the rabbit hole never ends. This means that the risk of creating a loss of Faith in Mormonism is much greater than the reward of reconciling folk's concerns. - When one begins exploring a "Mormon Faith Crisis", it is not long before one sees or comes across "Faith development". When one dives into this social science one learns that what was before defined as a "crisis of faith", is actually normal human growth. The reason it feels like a crisis is because of the tension bvetween the new growth inside juxtaposed by the tribe one belongs to imposing that such growth is instead a falling away. When one grasps the concepts within this growth, it becomes apparent quickly that institutional Mormonism has many mechanisms designed to squash such an awakening and to encourage one to stay in a more binary/outer authority paradigm. It only takes one person to open the group up to information of such development before a whole room of folks sense that the Church is a barrier rather than fertile ground for such development. - Apologetics works well one on one. generally Apologetic answers to the tough questions requires you to make space for the less rational solutions (think book of abraham, The most rationale answer is the critical one but we in making space for faith encourage each other to make space for a missing scroll or a catalyst theory or some other less reasonable answer) . Because we want to believe badly, we accept these less rationale answers as possibilities that we will "place faith in". But if in a room full of folks a discussion ensues around these answers and their level of rationale, logic, and plausibility, it only takes one person in the group to point out that such answers are weak/problematic/irrational for one to see the critics on many issues have the more reasonable answer. Then compound that over a dozen issues or a 100 issues. Before long one sees the silliness in investing in "less likely" answers when looking at the issues collectively. This is why the Church suggests you keep your doubts between you and your Bishop rather than discuss openly in classes. - The final issue is that the narrative the Church holds up as official (manuals and other correlated material) is very whitewashed while containing false faith promoting stories throughout. There are at least 18 stories in last years primary manual for instance that have historical problems begging to be asked about, and the adult manuals are not much better. If a class was spending their time trying to help each other dive into the sticky issues, it would become apparent quickly that the Church has only shared the most faithful 5% mixed in with false faith promoting stories. The "doubter" would quickly realize the Church has not given them enough data to make truly informed choices and the anger and frustration would increase. In a group setting this would have a lot of risk versus little reward so long as the church tells a deeply inaccurate, simplified, whitewashed version of itself Odd, the men and women I know who fulfill the D&C promise of having the power of godliness and the independence that gives manifest through them do not seem to have it squashed by the Church's nefarious "mechanisms". Why is this awakening seem so often tied to historical problems and insisting the Church does not give them enough information? That is supposed to be real spiritual growth? It seems too regressive and blamey to me. 3
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 2 hours ago, DBMormon said: Actually I think it would grow even faster One more reason not to form such groups. 2
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 20 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Partially true. There may not be revealed, correlated answers (yet). That doesn’t mean we can’t find our own answers. Part of the solution is to stop looking for church leaders to have the answers to our faith crises. Many of the answers can only come by revelation and, for His own reasons, God has not made them generally available. I suspect God allows us reasons to doubt. I have many reasons to doubt. Then I get the choice as to whether I choose to. 3
JAHS Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 23 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: 42 minutes ago, JAHS said: The problem is that there are no answers right now to some of the questions and inconsistancie. You may be asking for more than anyone can give you. Partially true. There may not be revealed, correlated answers (yet). That doesn’t mean we can’t find our own answers. Part of the solution is to stop looking for church leaders to have the answers to our faith crises. Just hope the source of your answers is from God; those are the only right ones.
SouthernMo Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 1 minute ago, JAHS said: Just hope the source of your answers is from God; those are the only right ones. Bingo. That’s the difficult (scary?) part. I am comforted by my belief that God knows my heart, and that I’m trying - even when I misunderstand his message or listen to the wrong message. 1
RevTestament Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: God confines Himself to certain rules in regards to how he interferes in this world. The whole "law irrevocably decreed in heaven" thing. I know them pretty well but I still think they are trippy. Beasts and dragons both with improbable numbers of horns and crowns.....good fun. All one must do is understand the symbolism and it all starts to make sense. Horns are ruling offices. The beast of Revelation is a continuation of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7, which were countries/empires. It has 10 horns because 10 Teutonic tribes conquered the western Roman Empire. These peoples are the French descended from the Franks, the Spanish descended from the Visigoths, the Bergundians in Germany, the Lombards in Italy, etc. These exclude three of the horns which were plucked up by the little horn in Daniel, which are the Heruli, Ostrogoths and the Vandals - all of whom attacked and/or ruled the city of Rome itself. Note that in Revelation these horns give their power to the beast until the words of God are fulfilled, which is a short way of saying they converted to Roman Catholicism.
Thinking Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 Some of us don't classify "it" as a faith crisis. but rather an awakening. 2
Duncan Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 2 hours ago, rockpond said: What other motives? I agree that podcasts don’t offer what Jesus can (they aren’t meant to). They aren’t meant to replace ministering or the sacrament or repentance. think about it okay😶
Duncan Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 2 hours ago, DBMormon said: Actually I think it would grow even faster you and rockpond should get together and discuss this
changed Posted June 28, 2018 Author Posted June 28, 2018 I was not familiar with Fowler's work: http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html Love it! It is actually similar to: https://cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/perry.positions.html I like the idea that a faith crisis - skepticism - is required to progress to the highest levels. Woo Hoo - I am having a Faith crisis, I am headed to the next level 1
changed Posted June 28, 2018 Author Posted June 28, 2018 8 hours ago, Eek! said: YESSS!! Note also that God's words are not confined to LDS scriptures: "Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. "For I command all men... that they shall write the words which I speak unto them... "For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it." Ever wonder what else God might have to say, beyond the four Standard Works? How would we recognize it without a General Authority to do the thinking for us? Well, the very first thing given to a person after Baptism is the Gift of the Holy Ghost. We already have everything we need to recognize truth, if we decide to go looking for it. Should we? The most oft-repeated injunction in the scriptures is some variation on this theme: "Seek, and ye shall find." Here we have one of the more complete versions: "For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come..." Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees after reading a scripture that assured him God would not be upset with him for seeking. Joseph sought, and by golly he found. And God has not changed since then. so UU is perhaps the way to go? I think there are quite a few different - legitimate - tribes out there. I cannot believe that any one of them is the "one and only" true organization. It is an interesting way for G-d to set up religious beliefs among us. We all have our own little group that makes each of us feel special and unique - it gives us free agency for which group to join - and hopefully, when we are all old an wise - we can break free from our box and see the beauty in, not just a few people, but in all people.
Eek! Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 25 minutes ago, changed said: Woo Hoo - I am having a Faith crisis, I am headed to the next level Yes you are, sister! 10 minutes ago, changed said: so UU is perhaps the way to go? What is UU?
Eek! Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: One of the main logical realities of the gospel is that if Jesus was who he said he was and that Joseph Smith had the experiences and received the powers and knowledge he did then how do you accept half and reject the other? Same way that someone could believe in Jesus and the Twelve Apostles and still not believe in the Roman Catholic Church. Edited June 28, 2018 by Eek! 1
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 45 minutes ago, RevTestament said: All one must do is understand the symbolism and it all starts to make sense. Horns are ruling offices. The beast of Revelation is a continuation of the 4 beasts of Daniel 7, which were countries/empires. It has 10 horns because 10 Teutonic tribes conquered the western Roman Empire. These peoples are the French descended from the Franks, the Spanish descended from the Visigoths, the Bergundians in Germany, the Lombards in Italy, etc. These exclude three of the horns which were plucked up by the little horn in Daniel, which are the Heruli, Ostrogoths and the Vandals - all of whom attacked and/or ruled the city of Rome itself. Note that in Revelation these horns give their power to the beast until the words of God are fulfilled, which is a short way of saying they converted to Roman Catholicism. Yes, I have heard that interpretation. I am not convinced that is what it means. Or maybe it is like the Temple and has multiple meanings. Not sure.
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 Just now, Eek! said: Same way that someone could believe in Jesus and the Twelve Apostles and still not believe in the Roman Catholic church. Sorry, I wrote that badly. My fault. I meant how can you accept both Christ as the promised Messiah and the Restoration and then accept half of the restored gospel? 2
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, Eek! said: What is UU? I am guessing Unitarian Universalism. A bunch of atheists, agnostics, theists, and whatever else there is seeking truth in drips and drabs from major religions. They get in trouble every so often for aping the religious rituals and practices of others and even mingling them. Basically a bunch of religious dilettantes. When asked what the true faith is one wise man responded:
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 50 minutes ago, Thinking said: Some of us don't classify "it" as a faith crisis. but rather an awakening. I classify "it" as disturbing.
Bernard Gui Posted June 28, 2018 Posted June 28, 2018 On 6/26/2018 at 2:53 PM, changed said: So... as I am going through this thing, seems like there are a lot of good support groups out there - addiction support group, spouse of addicts support groups, singles groups/ward, there are mothers groups, and etc. etc. etc. LGBT support group? there should be. Every ward has inactive members - how many inactives went through or are going through a faith crisis do you think? The only resources I have found for someone going through a crisis are anti-resources. I know about StayLDS but I don't want a forum, I want a face-2-face support group. What do you think of the idea? If it magically became a new church program or something, would you be excited about it? What would it look like? Would it be well attended? How to encourage people to attend? Good idea? I should tell my bishop he has to create on or I am leaving? haha - bad idea? That would be an interesting group. Sister Gui and I have been leading an addiction family support group for over 10 years. Whoever leads the group should have experience with the problem, like a person who had a faith crisis and came out the other side a stronger member. Attendance should be voluntary. In addiction recovery, it doesn't work if the attendees are not seriously interested in recovery and have reached a point in their lives that not much else means anything except their addiction. I don't know how resources could be put together in a way that would satisfy all the causes of a crisis. A more general approach like the 12-step method that can be adapted to various addictions could possibly serve as a foundation. If it became a group that just fed the fear and perpetuated the crisis, it would fail. What would be the hoped-for outcome? I would also be excited about a support group for members who have loved ones who leave the Church for whatever reasons and wreak havoc in their families. We have materials we prepared and have used them on several occasions. 2
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