Duncan Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, cinepro said: Here's more info than you ever wanted to know about Heber J. Grant going east to try and save the Church's finances in 1893: Crisis In Zion you mean you don't find a paper written about someone selling bonds interesting? who are you?!😮 it's like having a meeting to be shown how to have a meeting😴😴😴
Bernard Gui Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 14 minutes ago, cinepro said: Here's more info than you ever wanted to know about Heber J. Grant going east to try and save the Church's finances in 1893: Crisis In Zion Perhaps the Church has learned its lessons from Edmunds-Tucker and the Panic of 1893 and does not want to repeat the awful experience.
CV75 Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said: He specifically says “tithes.” Yes he does, in that the "tithes in the storehouse" are sufficient to not ask for voluntary donations . But I think there will always be room for tithes until the law of consecration replaces them (same with fast offerings). Note that a storehouse is not a static operation, and so tithes go out they must also come in. Anyway, the OP is about what was the President thinking, and I suppose no one really knows... But the end of tithing would certainly require a revelation, I would think. 1
SeekerB Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 7 hours ago, Jeanne said: Oh...no day will exist..you will be bled dry...IMO...so shoot me. That day came a long time ago. Tithing has never bled me dry. It has always been a blessing of great abundance. 4
Popular Post Garden Girl Posted June 2, 2018 Popular Post Posted June 2, 2018 9 minutes ago, SeekerB said: Tithing has never bled me dry. It has always been a blessing of great abundance. For me too, Seeker... in fact today, as on the 1st of every month, as I was preparing to pay my bills, I was struck by how living the Law of Tithing fully and faithfully has blessed me greatly... I always say a prayer of gratitude. Here I am 78 years old... retired 28 years... widowed 20 yrs... never having to go back to work... self sustaining and taking care of myself... own my own home (1/2 blk to shore), auto, and everything else outright... debt kept below $500 - $1500 at any given time... And the blessings are not only temporal, but wonderfully spiritual... I can't afford not to pay my tithing. Bled dry?? I can't begin to understand such a statement... from the beach on a lovely June day... our sunset will be beautiful... GG 5
Benjamin Seeker Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 Lorenzo Snow’s original request is also worth bringing up here: “I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing...” (Conference Report, October 1899) Remember, Snow was trying to address a financial problem. If tithing wasn’t quite an across the board standard practice in 1899, then it isn’t surprising that Joseph F may have been considering relinquishing Snow’s request. 1
Amulek Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 7 hours ago, cinepro said: What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? I thought the higher law meant to replace the law of tithing was the united order...not, no more tithing. Quote I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God. The church used to ask members to donate for meetinghouses and all sorts of things that are now exclusively paid for by the church. I think that's what he is talking about. The church now has sufficient funds to build chapels and temples whenever there is a need for one to be built. We no longer have to ask members of the church to donate specific amounts before construction can begin. I think those are wonderful developments. 1
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 I have heard that more revelation is on the way so fingers crossed. Wouldn't matter much to me. I think I would just split my tithing in half and put half of it into Fast Offerings with what I already pay and put the rest in the Ward Mission fund or something. 1
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 10 hours ago, cinepro said: What if we have reached that day and the Church leaders just haven't realized it because they haven't asked? Could we have an Official Declaration 3 on the way announcing the end of tithing due to the blessings of a higher law (i.e. compound interest)? Compound interest cannot keep up with inflation right now. Better to invest in Bitcoins.
Paiute Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 Assuming you've been married in the Temple, you covenanted to live a law higher than Tithing. When it's asked of you, what will you do? Lose for Eternity your spouse and children for not complying?
Thinking Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 11 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Tithing is voluntary and always has been. Today any member may cease to pay, for whatever reason they choose, their tithing. The Church will then voluntarily cease to allow that member access to temple privileges. 1
Benjamin Seeker Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 3 minutes ago, Thinking said: The Church will then voluntarily cease to allow that member access to temple privileges. The temple is one part of it along with not being able to perform ordinances for your kids. As a Father, in order to fully participate in your family’s life you have to pay in Mormon culture. That’s the expectation.
Thinking Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Tithing is voluntary and always has been. Today any member may cease to pay, for whatever reason they choose, their tithing. "You keep saying that word. I don't think it means what you think it means." Howard W. Hunter claimed that Tithing was voluntary. Quote The tithe is God’s law for His children, yet the payment is entirely voluntary. Link Two paragraphs later... Quote The Lord has established the law of tithing, and because it is His law, it becomes our obligation to observe it if we love Him and have a desire to keep His commandments and receive His blessings. In this way it becomes a debt. How can something be voluntary, an obligation, and a debt all at the same time? Edited June 2, 2018 by Thinking 2
Paiute Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said: The temple is one part of it along with not being able to perform ordinances for your kids. As a Father, in order to fully participate in your family’s life you have to pay in Mormon culture. That’s the expectation. It's not Mormon culture. It's a commandment restored by the Lord through the prophet Joseph Smith. Thus the term Restoration.
Storm Rider Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Thinking said: The Church will then voluntarily cease to allow that member access to temple privileges. I am not sure what your point is. The temple is for those who have a testimony of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. When you reject the prophets and the apostles and the teachings of Jesus Christ why would you care if the temple existed or not? This is not making a lot of sense to me. You seem to find value in the most sacred things of the Church, but you want to play the cafeteria game about everything else. They are co-dependent and the one does not exist without the other. If the Keys are not held by the Church then the temple is meaningless and has no eternal value. 2
Storm Rider Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Thinking said: "You keep saying that word. I don't think it means what you think it means." Howard W. Hunter claimed that Tithing was voluntary. Two paragraphs later... How can something be voluntary, an obligation, and a debt all at the same time? We are followers of Jesus Christ by choice. As disciples of Christ, we choose to obligate ourselves to keep the commandments and to follow his teachings. Even though we daily sin and demonstrate our weakness in observing the commandments our desire to follow remains. Tithing is the same as any other teaching. As a disciple, we are obligated - as a result of our choice we choose to obey; it remains an expression of our agency. It is a moral obligation to follow his teachings, but it remains a choice. 3
rodheadlee Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 12 hours ago, SeekerB said: Tithing has never bled me dry. It has always been a blessing of great abundance. It makes me feel like I am a part of something great. 3
Gray Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: Compound interest cannot keep up with inflation right now. Better to invest in Bitcoins. Bitcoin is the currency of mobsters and human traffickers. I don't think its future is bright.
mrmarklin Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 The statement quoted by OP is very ambiguous. IMNSHO it does not contemplate the end of tithing, but the ending of building funds, budget funds, etc that until quite recently were a part of donating over and above tithings. The Church seems to have achieved this. 1
The Nehor Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Gray said: Bitcoin is the currency of mobsters and human traffickers. I don't think its future is bright. I think that would herald a bright future but Bitcoin’s future is worthlessness. Now that almost everyone has heard of it and almost everyone who is going to buy in has its future will be short.
Jeanne Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 15 hours ago, SeekerB said: Tithing has never bled me dry. It has always been a blessing of great abundance. Happy for you...you must have been able to make the house payment and rent...😍 1
Thinking Posted June 2, 2018 Posted June 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Storm Rider said: We are followers of Jesus Christ by choice. As disciples of Christ, we choose to obligate ourselves to keep the commandments and to follow his teachings. Even though we daily sin and demonstrate our weakness in observing the commandments our desire to follow remains. Tithing is the same as any other teaching. As a disciple, we are obligated - as a result of our choice we choose to obey; it remains an expression of our agency. It is a moral obligation to follow his teachings, but it remains a choice. By your reasoning everything is voluntary. Obigatory vs Voluntary By your definition my car payments are voluntary. Do I have a choice not to make them? Yes, but there are consequences for not making them. If I made one of your car payments, that would be voluntary because I have no legal obligation to do so. It would be true free will. Having a choice does not make something voluntary. Quote We are free to choose, but we are not free to alter the consequences of those choices. Ezra Taft Benson
Storm Rider Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 4 hours ago, Thinking said: By your reasoning everything is voluntary. Obigatory vs Voluntary By your definition my car payments are voluntary. Do I have a choice not to make them? Yes, but there are consequences for not making them. If I made one of your car payments, that would be voluntary because I have no legal obligation to do so. It would be true free will. Having a choice does not make something voluntary. 1 By your reasoning everything is obligatory. Your reasonging is a bit strange. Did you want to buy a car? Did you agree to pay for the car? Was there any language that said you could stop paying anytime you chose? No, you wanted the car, you agreed to the financial terms and you got your car. Did you choose to buy the car? Yes. Did you choose to pay for it? Yes. You think that volunatry actions are only voluntary if there are no consequences for not fulfilling a commitment you chose to accept. Just seems rather a strange spin on choice. 1
Thinking Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 41 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: By your reasoning everything is obligatory. Your reasonging is a bit strange. Did you want to buy a car? Did you agree to pay for the car? Was there any language that said you could stop paying anytime you chose? No, you wanted the car, you agreed to the financial terms and you got your car. Did you choose to buy the car? Yes. Did you choose to pay for it? Yes. You think that volunatry actions are only voluntary if there are no consequences for not fulfilling a commitment you chose to accept. Just seems rather a strange spin on choice. It's obvious that we understand concept of voluntary to be different, so I will voluntarily leave this discussion.
mrmarklin Posted June 3, 2018 Posted June 3, 2018 9 hours ago, Jeanne said: Happy for you...you must have been able to make the house payment and rent...😍 You have both?
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