Joseph F. Smith and the End of Tithing

[Meerkat]

On 6/1/2018 at 12:29 PM, JLHPROF said:

I'm guessing Pres. Smith was familiar with the scriptures so whatever he had in mind was probably a little different than an end to tithing.

Absolutely right.  The benefits or blessings for paying tithes and offerings are so great, there is nothing you could do or say to keep me from paying it.  It means that much to me, and to MANY converted Latter-day Saints I know.  The Malachi 10 blessings are real, as are the Isaiah 58 blessings for fast offerings.  People can complain about tithing forever.  But for those who know, they would't want to live without it.

[jpv]

16 hours ago, Gray said:

Bitcoin is the currency of mobsters and human traffickers. I don't think its future is bright.

CFR

[Gray]

5 hours ago, jpv said:

CFR

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/business-moguls-beaten-in-bitcoin-bubble-debate-2018-04-23

 

Quote

“So, bitcoin transactions are anonymous or, more accurately, pseudonymous,” said Posner. “The people to whom this is most attractive is criminals. That’s why there’s a great deal of criminal activity in the bitcoin market. Bitcoins are very good for money launderers, drug criminals, human traffickers and many other criminals,” he said.

 

[Stargazer]

On 6/1/2018 at 9:41 PM, drums12 said:

Man you are great at setting up straw men

In my own observation he's achieved at least Level 8 of straw man mastery.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

So, bitcoin transactions are anonymous or, more accurately, pseudonymous,” said Posner. “The people to whom this is most attractive is criminals. That’s why there’s a great deal of criminal activity in the bitcoin market. Bitcoins are very good for money launderers, drug criminals, human traffickers and many other criminals,” he said.

To be fair, that applies to cash as well.

[Gray]

22 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

To be fair, that applies to cash as well.

Indeed, although I believe bitcoin is becoming a currency of choice for criminals. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of crackdown in the near future.

[mrmarklin]

On 6/1/2018 at 7:30 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

Lorenzo Snow’s original request is also worth bringing up here:

“I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing...” (Conference Report, October 1899)

Remember, Snow was trying to address a financial problem. If tithing wasn’t quite an across the board standard practice in 1899, then it isn’t surprising that Joseph F may have been considering relinquishing Snow’s request.

As seen in this quote, the people being asked to tithe, are ones with the means to do so. No one is being “bled dry”.

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

You have both?

 

Fortunately not...just house payment..should have said or...!!!😊

[theplains]

On 6/1/2018 at 9:08 PM, CV75 said:

But the end of tithing would certainly require a revelation, I would think.

Would a majority vote of the 15 apostles be sufficient?

Thanks,
Jim

[cinepro]

1 minute ago, theplains said:

Would a majority vote of the 15 apostles be sufficient?

Thanks,
Jim

Have previous changes to the interpretation of "Tithing" needed unanimous support?

The thread title is probably a little misleading.  This wouldn't be the "end of tithing."  It would just be the end of "compulsory tithing."  People would still be able to give freely to the Church, and I'm sure many would (just as many give more than 10% now).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Would a majority vote of the 15 apostles be sufficient?

Thanks,
Jim

I don't think they tend to operate under majority rule (do you have examples?), rather by consensus and unanimous agreement; I'm not sure what you mean by a vote (please explain how that works in the presiding councils of the Church); and, where I said revelation, by your suggestion are you advocating an alternative?

[theplains]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don't think they tend to operate under majority rule (do you have examples?), rather by consensus and unanimous agreement; I'm not sure what you mean by a vote (please explain how that works in the presiding councils of the Church); and, where I said revelation, by your suggestion are you advocating an alternative?

By vote, I mean that a decision is made in a corporate sense to either accept or reject it by a majority
consensus or unanimous agreement.  The only example I can think of right now is how the church
worded Declaration 2 - which sounds to me like they had to decide to accept or reject a revelation ...
aka, they voted and it was accepted unanimously.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[The Nehor]

On 6/3/2018 at 9:14 AM, Stargazer said:

To be fair, that applies to cash as well.

Kind of, but money is tracked more easily. If you want to buy drugs or child pornography or move money across international borders bitcoin is one of the best ways to do it.

Fortunately the end is nigh for cryptocurrencies. No one has come up with a use case where they are better than fiat currencies other than illegal activity. The lack of regulation means they are relatively easy to steal. Their value is too volatile to be of any value as a day to day currency. The exchanges are shady as hell. They have no inherent value and are not backed by any government. The only thing keeping them afloat is new blood using them to speculate but cryptocurrencies are known to almost everyone now.

We are in the same place with crypto as the stock market was in the late 20s:

"Taxi drivers told you what to buy. The shoeshine boy could give you a summary of the day's financial news as he worked with rag and polish. An old beggar who regularly patrolled the street in front of my office now gave me tips and, I suppose, spent the money I and others gave him in the market. My cook had a brokerage account and followed the ticker closely. Her paper profits were quickly blown away in the gale of 1929."

The modern shoeshine boys and cooks all know about crypto and those who are going to buy in largely have. The rampant increase was fueled by speculation but like all schemes of this type eventually you run out of suckers to buy in and the whole thing comes crashing down. I don't think anyone will be able to time it but it can't last.

Edited June 6, 2018 by The Nehor

[Paiute]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Kind of, but money is tracked more easily. If you want to buy drugs or child pornography or move money across international borders bitcoin is one of the best ways to do it.

Fortunately the end is nigh for cryptocurrencies. No one has come up with a use case where they are better than fiat currencies other than illegal activity. The lack of regulation means they are relatively easy to steal. Their value is too volatile to be of any value as a day to day currency. The exchanges are shady as hell. They have no inherent value and are not backed by any government. The only thing keeping them afloat is new blood using them to speculate but cryptocurrencies are known to almost everyone now.

We are in the same place with crypto as the stock market was in the late 20s:

"Taxi drivers told you what to buy. The shoeshine boy could give you a summary of the day's financial news as he worked with rag and polish. An old beggar who regularly patrolled the street in front of my office now gave me tips and, I suppose, spent the money I and others gave him in the market. My cook had a brokerage account and followed the ticker closely. Her paper profits were quickly blown away in the gale of 1929."

The modern shoeshine boys and cooks all know about crypto and those who are going to buy in largely have. The rampant increase was fueled by speculation but like all schemes of this type eventually you run out of suckers to buy in and the whole thing comes crashing down. I don't think anyone will be able to time it but it can't last.

Bitcoin can be tracked. Criminals have been caught by tracing their Bitcoin transactions. It's a ledger after all. There are plenty of legitimate exchanges which operate under Govt regs; and value is what one is willing to pay.

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Kind of, but money is tracked more easily. If you want to buy drugs or child pornography or move money across international borders bitcoin is one of the best ways to do it.

Yeah, I can believe that.  

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Fortunately the end is nigh for cryptocurrencies. No one has come up with a use case where they are better than fiat currencies other than illegal activity. The lack of regulation means they are relatively easy to steal. Their value is too volatile to be of any value as a day to day currency. The exchanges are shady as hell. They have no inherent value and are not backed by any government. The only thing keeping them afloat is new blood using them to speculate but cryptocurrencies are known to almost everyone now.

I've got a few acquaintances who are all into Bitcoin and other cryptos.  They're very enthusiastic, but the more I thought about joining them the more skeptical I got.  In the end I decided that I wouldn't touch a crypto with a ten foot pole.

As far as inherent value, however, I have to say that the fiat currencies offered by governments have none.  Government "backing" of fiat currencies is very tenuous at best.  The only real medium of exchange with inherent value is precious metals, especially gold.  That's been the case for thousands of years, and isn't likely to change soon.

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We are in the same place with crypto as the stock market was in the late 20s:

"Taxi drivers told you what to buy. The shoeshine boy could give you a summary of the day's financial news as he worked with rag and polish. An old beggar who regularly patrolled the street in front of my office now gave me tips and, I suppose, spent the money I and others gave him in the market. My cook had a brokerage account and followed the ticker closely. Her paper profits were quickly blown away in the gale of 1929."

The modern shoeshine boys and cooks all know about crypto and those who are going to buy in largely have. The rampant increase was fueled by speculation but like all schemes of this type eventually you run out of suckers to buy in and the whole thing comes crashing down. I don't think anyone will be able to time it but it can't last.

Interesting times, yes!

[CV75]

10 hours ago, theplains said:

By vote, I mean that a decision is made in a corporate sense to either accept or reject it by a majority
consensus or unanimous agreement.  The only example I can think of right now is how the church
worded Declaration 2 - which sounds to me like they had to decide to accept or reject a revelation ...
aka, they voted and it was accepted unanimously.

Hope this helps.

Jim

I think you answered you own question if i understood it correctly.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, I can believe that.  

I've got a few acquaintances who are all into Bitcoin and other cryptos.  They're very enthusiastic, but the more I thought about joining them the more skeptical I got.  In the end I decided that I wouldn't touch a crypto with a ten foot pole.

As far as inherent value, however, I have to say that the fiat currencies offered by governments have none.  Government "backing" of fiat currencies is very tenuous at best.  The only real medium of exchange with inherent value is precious metals, especially gold.  That's been the case for thousands of years, and isn't likely to change soon.

Interesting times, yes!

I dabbled in crypto a while back and made a little money but never again.

You overestimate the weakness of government currency. It has the backing of the government which is not inconsequential. Government currencies do have value as long as the government survives. You can pay your taxes or your mortgage with fiat currency. You can go shopping with it. Cannot do that with crypto.

Precious metals are precious for the same reason fiat currency is valuable: scarcity and an agreement that is has value. Gold and silver do have some practical uses but nothing to justify the current price. As long as the government survives fiat is the better store of value. If the government collapses gold and silver will not be the main trade commodity. The guy who has food, cigarettes, and toilet paper will be the rich guy and not the guy with a vault full of gold and silver. Precious metal investing is not a stable investment. The proof is that they are advertising for it all the time on the radio. If you have to advertise an investment it is almost always a bad investment and someone is looking to get a cut off the sucker/investor.

[Paiute]

On 6/6/2018 at 9:47 AM, The Nehor said:

I dabbled in crypto a while back and made a little money but never again.

You overestimate the weakness of government currency. It has the backing of the government which is not inconsequential. Government currencies do have value as long as the government survives. You can pay your taxes or your mortgage with fiat currency. You can go shopping with it. Cannot do that with crypto.

Precious metals are precious for the same reason fiat currency is valuable: scarcity and an agreement that is has value. Gold and silver do have some practical uses but nothing to justify the current price. As long as the government survives fiat is the better store of value. If the government collapses gold and silver will not be the main trade commodity. The guy who has food, cigarettes, and toilet paper will be the rich guy and not the guy with a vault full of gold and silver. Precious metal investing is not a stable investment. The proof is that they are advertising for it all the time on the radio. If you have to advertise an investment it is almost always a bad investment and someone is looking to get a cut off the sucker/investor.

"Cannot do that with crypto."

Sure you can. There are Debit Cards attached to Bitcoin accounts:  https://www.weusecoins.com/bitcoin-debit-cards/ 

The only issue is when Bitcoin is sold, it's a taxable event thus a hassle to keep track of petty transactions. Similar to a Bond Fund tied to a checking account - fractional shares are sold - capital gain event.

You can also invest in Bitcoin through USD ETFs which track the Bitcoin price index: GBTC is a popular one - it split 91-for-1  in Jan 2018:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/16/the-bitcoin-investment-trusts-stock-is-splitting-h.aspx

BTCS & BITCF are others. The CME has Bitcoin Future Contracts as well.

The price of cryptos generally are trending lower, thus not a good investment currently unless you want to short them.

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Paiute

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Paiute said:

"Cannot do that with crypto."

Sure you can. There are Debit Cards attached to Bitcoin accounts:  https://www.weusecoins.com/bitcoin-debit-cards/ 

The only issue is when Bitcoin is sold, it's a taxable event thus a hassle to keep track of petty transactions. Similar to a Bond Fund tied to a checking account - fractional shares are sold - capital gain event.

You can also invest in Bitcoin through USD ETFs which track the Bitcoin price index: GBTC is a popular one - it split 91-for-1  in Jan 2018:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/01/16/the-bitcoin-investment-trusts-stock-is-splitting-h.aspx

BTCS & BITCF are others. The CME has Bitcoin Future Contracts as well.

The price of cryptos generally are trending lower, thus not a good investment currently unless you want to short them.

 

You can try but paying something using Bitcoin you risk something costing much more or less before the purchase is completed. That is why it’s value as a currency is low. Imagine getting paid in crypto. One week you get 130% of what they were worth when you agreed to the wage and then the week after it is worth 50%.

[SteveO]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You can try but paying something using Bitcoin you risk something costing much more or less before the purchase is completed. That is why it’s value as a currency is low. Imagine getting paid in crypto. One week you get 130% of what they were worth when you agreed to the wage and then the week after it is worth 50%.

I read major porn sites are going to be accepting crypto as a form of payment...it may be around much longer than you think...I need to believe my Litecoin will come back up

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, SteveO said:

I read major porn sites are going to be accepting crypto as a form of payment...it may be around much longer than you think...I need to believe my Litecoin will come back up

I would be desperate and take anything too to hold on to the people who still pay for porn out of either ignorance or having really niche tastes.

[Paiute]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You can try but paying something using Bitcoin you risk something costing much more or less before the purchase is completed. That is why it’s value as a currency is low. Imagine getting paid in crypto. One week you get 130% of what they were worth when you agreed to the wage and then the week after it is worth 50%.

Try? This article list major companies that accept Bitcoin: http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10  

Imagine getting paid in crypto 4 years ago. The price was skyrocketing.

If you decide to sell now and incur a capital gain loss, then the loss could offset your taxable income.

I knew of a neighbor a teenager who for $5 in bitcoin a day sold to his coworkers a connection to his phone's hotspot. When he turned 20 he bought a house with his gains.

Bitcoin is like any other asset, its price fluctuates.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Paiute said:

Try? This article list major companies that accept Bitcoin: http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10  

Imagine getting paid in crypto 4 years ago. The price was skyrocketing.

If you decide to sell now and incur a capital gain loss, then the loss could offset your taxable income.

I knew of a neighbor a teenager who for $5 in bitcoin a day sold to his coworkers a connection to his phone's hotspot. When he turned 20 he bought a house with his gains.

Bitcoin is like any other asset, its price fluctuates.

It is not an asset. It has not value. It is pure speculation. There is no reason it should have value and its value will almost certainly fall to nothing eventually.

And yeah, people have made money off of it. Every scam like this has some winners. As long as you make sure you are not the one holding the bag when the thing collapses. You can make money off a ponzi scheme if you time it right. Some people got lucky. With perfect hindsight you could make a ton of money off of it but that is true of all speculative ventures. Give me a report of what stocks will be worth in a week and I could make a ton of money. The problem is people playing with crypto have no way to time it. Every dip could be its last.

I am not saying people should not play with it. I did and I even made a little money. But it is basically gambling. Don't put anything into it you cannot afford to lose and if you are addicted to the idea of it making you wealthy and are throwing money you cannot afford to lose into it please stop and get your money out before you ruin your life. It is also near its end game. It may take a few months or it might take a few years or even a decade. This kind of speculative investment only lasts as long as you get more and more fresh money put into it. That supply is starting to dry up.

Accepting Bitcoin is a marketing ploy to get a little free publicity. If the price plummets they will all stop accepting it so quickly it will make your head spin. Bitcoin has basically no advantage over paying with a credit card. In fact the consumer has less protection. Bitcoin transactions cannot be contested as a credit card charge can nor will they be refunded. 

Your story about the teenager is not going to happen again. I know a guy who made over a million because he was an early miner and then forgot about it. FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) is a real thing. In this case that is not happening again. The price was in the $8000 range last time I checked. To buy in now with $5 and be able to buy a house Bitcoin value would have to go into the billions which is just not going to happen.

[Paiute]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is not an asset. It has not value. It is pure speculation. There is no reason it should have value and its value will almost certainly fall to nothing eventually.

And yeah, people have made money off of it. Every scam like this has some winners. As long as you make sure you are not the one holding the bag when the thing collapses. You can make money off a ponzi scheme if you time it right. Some people got lucky. With perfect hindsight you could make a ton of money off of it but that is true of all speculative ventures. Give me a report of what stocks will be worth in a week and I could make a ton of money. The problem is people playing with crypto have no way to time it. Every dip could be its last.

I am not saying people should not play with it. I did and I even made a little money. But it is basically gambling. Don't put anything into it you cannot afford to lose and if you are addicted to the idea of it making you wealthy and are throwing money you cannot afford to lose into it please stop and get your money out before you ruin your life. It is also near its end game. It may take a few months or it might take a few years or even a decade. This kind of speculative investment only lasts as long as you get more and more fresh money put into it. That supply is starting to dry up.

Accepting Bitcoin is a marketing ploy to get a little free publicity. If the price plummets they will all stop accepting it so quickly it will make your head spin. Bitcoin has basically no advantage over paying with a credit card. In fact the consumer has less protection. Bitcoin transactions cannot be contested as a credit card charge can nor will they be refunded. 

Your story about the teenager is not going to happen again. I know a guy who made over a million because he was an early miner and then forgot about it. FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) is a real thing. In this case that is not happening again. The price was in the $8000 range last time I checked. To buy in now with $5 and be able to buy a house Bitcoin value would have to go into the billions which is just not going to happen.

What you said could be said of any asset. 

Amazon could one day go bust if the Internet is outlawed. Apple and Samsung could cease to exist if cell phones are known to cause testical and ovarian cancer. Or pants will be outlawed to have pockets. Fill in the blanks with any hypothetical. LOL!

Technical charting is used to trade cryptos. Its not blind luck. People watch the prices of their assets, their house, their car, the interest rates on bank accounts, mortgages, credit cards, their salaries, their taxes, the amount of food in their pantry or years supply, the gas in their automobiles gas tank, if they plummet or rise,  people react accordingly.

Its called Financial Analysis.

And yes the IRS has ruled cryptos to be assets for tax purposes, even if used as payments it's to be treated as a cash equivalent.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Paiute said:

What you said could be said of any asset. 

Amazon could one day go bust if the Internet is outlawed. Apple and Samsung could cease to exist if cell phones are known to cause testical and ovarian cancer. Or pants will be outlawed to have pockets. Fill in the blanks with any hypothetical. LOL!

While technically most assets can become valueless (see Enron) it takes a change in the market. No one is going to outlaw the internet. Amazon could fall but it will be because of mismanagement or better competition or some new and better idea replacing it. The difference is these have real-world causes having to do with the underlying asset. If Amazon stock becomes worthless it is because they are bankrupt and the company has no value left. If Bitcoin falls to 0 there does not need to be a rhyme or reason behind it other then people deciding not to buy in. There is no real-world reason for it to have any value. There are no assets behind it. There are no governments or other institutions behind it that need it to survive. The only people who care are those who own the internet funny money.

So, LOL, I guess.

5 hours ago, Paiute said:

Technical charting is used to trade cryptos. Its not blind luck. People watch the prices of their assets, their house, their car, the interest rates on bank accounts, mortgages, credit cards, their salaries, their taxes, the amount of food in their pantry or years supply, the gas in their automobiles gas tank, if they plummet or rise,  people react accordingly.

Its called Financial Analysis.

Yes, but if my house or my car becomes valueless it is because the former is uninhabitable or the latter does not work. If the house is habitable it has value. If a stock falls in value a company tries to push it back up. People do react but when crypto dies there is no reaction to push it back from valueless. It becomes worthless bits of code on everyone's machines. People are going to be left holding the bag when it ends.

Financial analysis is of questionable value. One of the great secrets is that many financial advisors and those who manage mutual funds stick their money in index funds while encouraging their customers to buy in to whatever they are peddling. If it was possible to judge the market in advance someone would have done it by now. Instead we have vague guesses. And most crypto prognosticators/fortune tellers forecast big gains on their blogs and internet articles. Really? Could that have something to do with owning some of that asset? Perception becomes reality.....for a while.

5 hours ago, Paiute said:

And yes the IRS has ruled cryptos to be assets for tax purposes, even if used as payments it's to be treated as a cash equivalent.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs-virtual-currency-guidance

Yes, and they are cleaning up. The fallout is already being seen amongst fools who do not know what they are doing. As most of the more esoteric cryptos are purchased with Bitcoin or Ethereum or one of the more mainstream coins it is fun to watch as people don't realize that the transaction to buy the mainstream coin and then the one to buy the even funnier internet money are both taxable transactions. Then you have some who throw money around all the time generating dozens of taxable events as they trade coins. God help those who use bots who trade automatically (that is not taking the name of God in vain that is a genuine prayer).

Then, come tax time, they made some money on some sales and thus owe capital gains taxes but their portfolio fell to nothing or almost nothing in value the next year when they invest it all in the next big coin that goes nowhere. Suddenly you have people who put in $10,000, saw it shoot up to $1,00-,000, and then lose it all and are shocked to find they have tens of thousands of dollars in tax bills they cannot pay. I am probably a bad person for finding the suffering of others so amusing.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/2018/04/04/tax-trouble-for-certain-bitcoin-traders/#61d5b6067a72

An excerpt:

What do you do, come April 17, if you made a ton of money trading crypto last year and have since lost most of it? Panic, probably.

A lot of last year’s winners are in deep porridge now. They owe tax on 2017 profits. They’re losing money now, so it’s not easy to come up with the cash to pay off the IRS. As for using today’s losses to offset last year’s gains, these tax naïfs are discovering, too late, that capital loss carryovers run forward but not backward.

Suppose speculator Bob turned $200,000 into $1 million in last year’s feverish market, trading all the way—in and out of Bitcoin and Ethereum and Ripple and back in again. Now Bob has $800,000 in short-term capital gain to report on Schedule D. The state and federal tax bill is going to be upwards of $300,000.

The 2018 crash has shrunk Bob’s account value, let us suppose, to $300,000. If Bob sells out to pay the tax, he will have a $700,000 capital loss to claim. But he can claim the loss only against future capital gains, not past ones.

Small consolation: Bob can use the $700,000 against up to $3,000 a year of ordinary income. If he throws in the towel on cryptocurrencies and goes back to his day job delivering pizzas, it will take him 234 years to catch even.

 

Now imagine if Bob has nothing left........