The beguiling of Eve

[theplains]

Moses 4:6 says, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he
sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Does this mean God wanted Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and if he [Satan] knew the mind of God, then
he would not have tempted Eve?

Why do you believe Satan sought to beguile Eve instead of Adam?

Thanks,
Jim

[rongo]

1 minute ago, theplains said:

Moses 4:6 says, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he
sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Does this mean God wanted Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and if he [Satan] knew the mind of God, then
he would not have tempted Eve?

Why do you believe Satan sought to beguile Eve instead of Adam?

Thanks,
Jim

I think Satan's hubris/pride and hatred is such that, even though he knew at an intellectual level that refusing to provide opposition in all things would thwart the plan, he still wanted to inflict as much damage as possible. And, he believed he would win.

Yes, it means that God wanted Adam and Eve to bring about the Fall. LDS scriptures add to the Bible account that this was necessary for the rest of God's children to come to earth --- and for us to have the experiences necessary for exaltation.

[Jeanne]

42 minutes ago, theplains said:

Moses 4:6 says, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he
sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Does this mean God wanted Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and if he [Satan] knew the mind of God, then
he would not have tempted Eve?

Why do you believe Satan sought to beguile Eve instead of Adam?

Thanks,
Jim

That is the way it has always looked like to me...and I have often thought..why would the woman be the one to be beguiled..to be the chosen sex to be the weak one..In a sense I have always thought that the terrible birth pains and blood is because of her being influenced by Satan...I no longer believe this...I no longer believe in Eden..but as the story goes..this. This is where the woman steps down and takes her place.  And all..to make this divine plan work for all mankind.  Does it makes sense?

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

That is the way it has always looked like to me...and I have often thought..why would the woman be the one to be beguiled..to be the chosen sex to be the weak one..In a sense I have always thought that the terrible birth pains and blood is because of her being influenced by Satan...I no longer believe this...I no longer believe in Eden..but as the story goes..this. This is where the woman steps down and takes her place.  And all..to make this divine plan work for all mankind.  Does it makes sense?

Nope! I believe the story that Eve made the mistake and therefore women have been cursed with her bad decision in Christiandom, not Mormonism, makes women suseptible to abuse beyond words. http://www.cedar-rivers.com/articles/living-life/98-jimmy-carter-leaves-church-over-treatment-of-women.html Of course a woman in the LDS church still go through their husband first to get to God as long as their husband is righeous.  Or he is the head like God is the head of the church. I'm thinking this stems from Bible teachings.

[Maestrophil]

44 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Nope! I believe the story that Eve made the mistake and therefore women have been cursed with her bad decision in Christiandom, not Mormonism, makes women suseptible to abuse beyond words. http://www.cedar-rivers.com/articles/living-life/98-jimmy-carter-leaves-church-over-treatment-of-women.html Of course a woman in the LDS church still go through their husband first to get to God as long as their husband is righeous.  Or he is the head like God is the head of the church. I'm thinking this stems from Bible teachings.

My dad always used to say "I am the head of the family, but your mom is the neck that turns the head!"  :-)

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Moses 4:6 says, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he
sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Does this mean God wanted Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and if he [Satan] knew the mind of God, then
he would not have tempted Eve?

Why do you believe Satan sought to beguile Eve instead of Adam?

Thanks,
Jim

The short answer is "yes".

The LDS belief - the story- is that first Satan went to Adam, proposing that he disobey Father.  Adam reflexively turned him down.  No he would not disobey Father.  Satan gave up on him with the plan to try to tempt Eve

He had a more convincing and longer conversation with Eve in which he told her that the Fall was needed in order for mankind to have agency and experience good and evil

After considering the possibilities , Eve reluctantly accepted that there was no other way for mankind to experince agency than eat the fruit. 

She understood that the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth could not be fulfilled if she was expelled from the Garden from eating the fruit, but apparently wanted to do the right thing regardless of what Adam did.

She understood the possibilities  were more complex than Adam had understood them, is how I understand that story.

After she partook of the fruit, she went back to Adam and had a conversation with him explaining the importance of eating the fruit, and Adam partook of it.

Later, the story goes, that Satan and Father had a conversation in which Father condemned Satan.  Satan did not expect that apparently and the story goes that he reacted with anger.  So yes, it was not clear apparently to Satan that he would be condemned for his action.

These are revelations which have not been published to the world at large but are revealed in the temple.  I don't think there is anything here that I have said that violates any covenants I have made, and there have been long and widespread conversations about these points on this board for a long time.

I can't say that women are better than men at certain things here but I just did.  I think women are much better at social thinking and the big picture of what is needed by humanity.

Of course the women's rights folks will hit me for that but I don't much care anymore.   It is so odd to me that one cannot compliment women anymore without being "sexist."

But I will tell you the way I see it regardless of the consequences. 

It is clear to me that women and men TEND TO have different talents and may be "better" at certain kinds of tasks.  I think that science is finally ready to acknowledge sexual differences.

By the way I have stated my opinion here but will not answer posts which debate women's issues.  For me there is nothing to debate, like it or not. 

In fact I believe the story is deliberately told in this way precisely to show that there are differences between men and women, and that women are more attuned to nuance than most men.

But of course that is my unpopular opinion.  I just know that in my family my wife "gets" all kinds of social nuances in conversation which totally go over my head while I am thinking about other things.  So this is just my experience I suppose, but I have heard it from other men all the time.

I tend to be rather simple minded.  Should I do wrong?  NO.

Is there a possiblity that what APPEARS to be "wrong" actually is the right choice in the situation with no clear good alternatives?  Absolutely.

In life we often have to choose the best of two rather poor alternatives.  But in this case, Eve totally got it right and Adam at first let it go right over his head until she womansplained it to him.

Edited March 29, 2018 by mfbukowski

[strappinglad]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

"And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,)

I  actually find this  more interesting because of the implications. As for Adam and Eve and which one was smarter or more nuanced or weaker or less/more righteous , we're here now, make the best of it.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Nope! I believe the story that Eve made the mistake and therefore women have been cursed with her bad decision in Christiandom, not Mormonism, makes women suseptible to abuse beyond words. http://www.cedar-rivers.com/articles/living-life/98-jimmy-carter-leaves-church-over-treatment-of-women.html Of course a woman in the LDS church still go through their husband first to get to God as long as their husband is righeous.  Or he is the head like God is the head of the church. I'm thinking this stems from Bible teachings.

I don't think you understand the whole picture but I certainly agree that women are often mistreated and have been in traditional Christianity and in our only partially restored Mormonism that still retains a lot of Calvinistic ....  error in the culture from the Saints who were early converts.

But the errors are in the culture, not in the teachings or doctrine.

Mormon women do not have to "go through their husbands" to "get to God".

Unmarried women serve as missionaries with priesthood authority and attendant right for inspiration in teaching investigators as much as any misisonary.  Women are refered to as "officiators" in the temples and are set apart- exactly as men are- with the authority to give ordinances

Men and women are to be equals in marriage and stand before God properly as a "divine pair" - and neither is complete without the other in salvation.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/this-is-a-womans-church-says-fairconference-speaker?lang=eng

If culturally that is not the case, shame on the culture, not on the church.   Yes men preside and yes, women get more blessings which we cannot discuss here.

Go to the temple and judge for yourself. 

It's them old protestants in the early church that messed it up. 

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

Moses 4:6 says, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he
sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Does this mean God wanted Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and if he [Satan] knew the mind of God, then
he would not have tempted Eve?

Yes, exactly.  Satan is a blind god.  He just doesn't see the advantage of free agency.  He thinks that God is foolish to say that "nevertheless, it is given unto you to choose."  After all, why should cynical Satan expect that free choice will be the right choice?  He never had faith in God.

4 hours ago, theplains said:

Why do you believe Satan sought to beguile Eve instead of Adam?.........

Satan figured (correcty) that Eve would be less rigid in her thinking. To him, as with most male chauvinist pigs, women are incapable of intelligent judgment.  So he "beguiled" her, or so he thought.  In the event, however, he was correct for the wrong reasons and Eve could see that there was no other way to make God's plan work.  God knew that she would do the right thing all along, wink-wink.  Slow Adam was merely along for the ride.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

That is the way it has always looked like to me...and I have often thought..why would the woman be the one to be beguiled..to be the chosen sex to be the weak one..In a sense I have always thought that the terrible birth pains and blood is because of her being influenced by Satan...I no longer believe this...I no longer believe in Eden..but as the story goes..this. This is where the woman steps down and takes her place.  And all..to make this divine plan work for all mankind.  Does it makes sense?

The curse of birth pangs is part of a clever "just so" story, and Satan is the classic trickster.  Pregnancy and birth were going to be rough in any case, but at the same time the most satisfying thing a woman ever does (or so I have been told).  There is a lot of symbolism in the set liturgy of the Garden experience, but it is already laid out ahead of time -- the script already set for each player -- as in any live endowment.  Oaths and covenants accompany the set choices to be made.  There are no surprises.

[CV75]

19 hours ago, theplains said:

Moses 4:6 says, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he
sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Does this mean God wanted Eve to eat from the forbidden tree and if he [Satan] knew the mind of God, then
he would not have tempted Eve?

Why do you believe Satan sought to beguile Eve instead of Adam?

Thanks,
Jim

Q1, yes, and it makes sense that at some point God would have given them the fruit, lifting the ban in lieu of a more sophisticated set of choices that drive home the depth of the Fall and the promise of exaltation.

Q2, because Adam knew what it was like to be alone and Eve did not. He did not want to be alone again. Eve couldn't fathom being alone until after she partook.

[theplains]

On 28/03/2018 at 6:22 PM, Tacenda said:

Of course a woman in the LDS church still go through their husband first to get to God as long as their husband is righeous. 

What do you mean?

Jim

[theplains]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

After considering the possibilities , Eve reluctantly accepted that there was no other way for mankind to experince agency than eat the fruit. 

Did Adam and Eve have agency in the Garden of Eden before the Fall?

Jim

[theplains]

22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The curse of birth pangs is part of a clever "just so" story, and Satan is the classic trickster.  

How do you believe Eve was punished for her transgression?

Jim

[theplains]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

Q2, because Adam knew what it was like to be alone and Eve did not. He did not want to be alone again. Eve couldn't fathom being alone until after she partook.

Do you believe Adam's presence in the Garden before Eve was formed was a time of loneliness and sadness?

Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

24 minutes ago, theplains said:

How do you believe Eve was punished for her transgression?

Jim

Her punishment is liturgical.  That is, it is part of a set ritual in which each character has a role and a script.  So the "punishment" is symbolic, and merely mimics the actual human condition.  Same applies to the trickster role played by Lucifer.  His curse is symbolic.  He doesn't actually turn into a serpent.  It is all a temple rite.  As pointed out by Anglican Bishop Tom Wright, Genesis 1 - 4 has God building his temple, in which he places his humans and special trees, and he interacts with them there in that key liturgical sequence so familiar to all of us.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Adam's presence in the Garden before Eve was formed was a time of loneliness and sadness?

Jim

Loneliness but sadness......probably not.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Adam's presence in the Garden before Eve was formed was a time of loneliness and sadness?

Jim

Why should I? Don't you know the difference between being alone and being lonely; aloneness and loneliness? I believe he knew what it was like to be alone, trusted in His Makers that it was not good, and even in comparison agreed with them from personal experience once he was no longer alone.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, theplains said:

How do you believe Eve was punished for her transgression?

Jim

The punishment for both Adam and Eve was physical and spiritual death (“sorrow” i.e. “suffering”). To have it multiplied in her conception is a nod to Eve’s role as the mother of all living; sorrow will be brought upon all living. To have the ground cursed is a nod to Adam’s role as steward (“rule”); it is also brought forth in sorrow. In sorrow both the materials and the life made of them are brought forth. By the power of God (as reflected in His edict), Eve brings life forth, and Adam stewards the materials she does that with. Together they are the fountain of all Adams and Eves.

[theplains]

On 30/03/2018 at 8:29 AM, CV75 said:

The punishment for both Adam and Eve was physical and spiritual death (“sorrow” i.e. “suffering”). To have it multiplied in her conception is a nod to Eve’s role as the mother of all living; sorrow will be brought upon all living. To have 

What about the additional punishment upon Eve - "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"?

Jim

[CV75]

1 minute ago, theplains said:

What about the additional punishment upon Eve - "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"?

Jim

Where does it say that is a punishment? https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/02/i-have-a-question/can-you-give-some-insight-on-genesis-3-16?lang=eng

[mfbukowski]

On 3/29/2018 at 5:09 PM, theplains said:

What do you mean?

Jim

I would suggest, IF you are genuinely interested, that you would rely on believing members of the church, rather than critics to get your answers.  The alleged answer was leading in the wrong direction.

[cinepro]

I think the real question is whether Eve eating the fruit was consensual or not?

Edited April 4, 2018 by cinepro

[mfbukowski]

On 3/29/2018 at 5:12 PM, theplains said:

Did Adam and Eve have agency in the Garden of Eden before the Fall?

Jim

Missed this question- sorry.

First of all I see the garden story as largely allegorical, but that is an excellent question because of course supposedly the fall was necessary to get "agency" so how could they have agency to choose before they had agency? 

I think the answer is that they had agency as a child has agency without understanding the consequences because they had no experience of such things.  Like a child told not to take cookies out of the cookie jar, they certainly must have had "agency" in some sense because the very fact that God gave the commandment indicates that they must have had a choice NOT to obey- or else there would be no need for the commandment in the first place!

So that is where the allegorical part comes in.   At some point the words as usual get in the way and should not be taken too seriously.  After all our language is confounded.

So yes they certainly could choose without comprehension of all that entailed, like the child taking the cookie, or eating a detergent pod or swallowing a bottle of pills.

But until they actually experienced the consequences of wrong choices, I think it is fair to say they really had no comprehension of how "evil" evil could be- leading to death.  Even though God told them they would surely die, they still did not even really understand what that meant.

I think it is only through experiencing SOME level of evil that one can know what it even is- the pain of conscience, the pain of actual consequences, the pain at not being able to correct past sins etc all cannot be known without direct experience.

I think THAT is the reason for the story, which to me can be taken literally or not.   I have no problem thinking it could have happened exactly as written or not- and since we will never know for sure, we just take the story as God's word and take from it the lessons we need in our lives.

Sin might seem to be "fun" but when the consequences hit, it becomes clear that it was not fun at all.  Without experiencing the consequences I think we would never understand that and in a sense not really have a " rational choice" to make a decision.

Without the ability to understand a decision can we be said to truly have "agency" in making the decision?  Again, we are like a small child taking pills thinking they are candy.  I don't know that you can call that "making a choice"

So yes, A&E got to pick whether or not to eat the fruit, but I don't know that was a complete "decision"

And so for the LDS we have Eve asking "Is there no other way?" when Satan tells her that she must partake to know good from evil.   She really doesn't know what she is getting into, but she knows that is the path that leads to both good and evil, whatever that is, and perhaps by inspiration chooses to go down that path.

I hope that helps some.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 3/28/2018 at 3:22 PM, Tacenda said:

 Of course a woman in the LDS church still go through their husband first to get to God as long as their husband is righeous.  Or he is the head like God is the head of the church. 

Completely incorrect.

I don't know where you get this stuff.