What's most important in the Grand Scheme: Behavior, or Belief?

[Jeanne]

7 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Excellent question.  Would anyone like to take a stab at this one?

Not me...but carry on..

[ksfisher]

12 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What if, like multitudes on the earth ,we  believe that to please our god we must sacrifice our children on a red hot altar , or thrown virgins into a volcano , or kill a man and spread his blood over the land to increase its fertility? What if for generations there is no recognition of the true God of the universe and the children are raised to hate their neighbors? What if , because of the " traditions of the fathers " , actions are guided by rules that God abhors ? On what is the judgment to be based, belief or actions ?

We are judged based on the law that we have been given and our understanding of that law.  We are not held accountable for eternal laws that we break because of ignorance.

[pogi]

12 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What if, like multitudes on the earth ,we  believe that to please our god we must sacrifice our children on a red hot altar , or thrown virgins into a volcano , or kill a man and spread his blood over the land to increase its fertility? What if for generations there is no recognition of the true God of the universe and the children are raised to hate their neighbors? What if , because of the " traditions of the fathers " , actions are guided by rules that God abhors ? On what is the judgment to be based, belief or actions ?

What we do know is that judgment will be based on our thoughts, words, and actions.  We also know that cultures without the law will not be judged by the fullness of the law, but according to the light they have been given.  Man cannot sin in ignorance of the law, but they can sin against their conscience.  That is why God looks on the heart.

[Exiled]

On 2/21/2018 at 8:00 PM, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

I think because action is the result of belief, belief seems to be a means to an end.  Ultimately, therefore, what we do and how we act is the more important concept in my opinion.  Additionally, mere belief without anything more doesn't harm anyone unless such belief ends up in bad actions.  I think society would be harmed, ultimately, if enough of society accepted a bad belief system because bad belief systems could change how certain harmful actions are viewed and judged by society.  However, if the bad belief system didn't harm anyone, then I think society could tolerate these beliefs.  We certainly need to be able to experiment as humans to see what is best and discard what doesn't work.  But ultimately what does or doesn't work should be judged by the actions beliefs generate.  

[stemelbow]

I don't really care for the pair of scissors type of thinking because ti assumes one must have faith in Christ as one part of the pair of scissors in order for the other half.  But unfortunately, as I've seen it, many who have no faith in Christ at all behave far more humbly and nobly than many who have faith in Christ.  I tend to think if God, He tends to work on individuals in spite of their particularly belief system.  That's not to say belief doesn't effect behavior, but it suggests assuming faith in Christ as belief leaves out belief, sans Christ, that brings out good behavior.  You don't need to believe in Christ to love another nor your enemies.  

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't really care for the pair of scissors type of thinking because ti assumes one must have faith in Christ as one part of the pair of scissors in order for the other half.  But unfortunately, as I've seen it, many who have no faith in Christ at all behave far more humbly and nobly than many who have faith in Christ.  I tend to think if God, He tends to work on individuals in spite of their particularly belief system.  That's not to say belief doesn't effect behavior, but it suggests assuming faith in Christ as belief leaves out belief, sans Christ, that brings out good behavior.  You don't need to believe in Christ to love another nor your enemies.  

Amen!

But in the end, a belief in goodness is a belief in Christ, even if it is unrealized as yet.

[JAHS]

What is the purpose of this life?

To ultimately gain eternal life with God. Here's the way I understand it according to LDS doctrine.  We all know the story of the rich man who asked Jesus what he had to do to gain eternal life
From Matt 19: 16-21
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Jesus then listed some of the commandments

"The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Notice at the end there Jesus didn't say if you want eternal life he said if thou wilt be perfect. It's not just what we do, it is what we become by doing those things that gets us there.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks said:
"From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become." (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Challenge to Become,” New Era, Aug. 2002, 12)

 

[Josh Khinder]

8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Well, it's kind of like this-- The One God said this in Genesis 3:5  "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."  And in verse 22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

I know you have a hard time with that Josh.  Maybe you are right.  But I believe this biblical doctrine is right, and answers your question.

You probably don't give any credence to CS Lewis either.  He was instrumental in leading me to Jesus Christ.  He said this, and I agree with him:

"Now the whole offer which Christianity makes is this: that we can, if we let God have His way, come to share in the life of Christ. If we do, we shall then be sharing a life which was begotten, not made, which always existed and always will exist. Christ is the Son of God. If we share in this kind of life we also shall be sons of God. We shall love the Father as He does and the Holy Ghost will arise in us. He came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has — by what I call "good infection." Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else."

This is exactly the doctrine I see, and live, and enjoy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Who is the author of that quote ? 

We do become children by adoption

 

·         Ephesians 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

·         Galatians 4:5

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

·         Romans 8:15

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

·         Romans 8:23

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

·         Romans 9:4

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (Jn. 1:12).

"For you [the Christians in Galatia to whom Paul is writing] are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:26).

 

Romans 9

 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Josh Khinder

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Who is the author of that quote ? 

 

I am confused.  You think the serpent was lying when he said that “ye shall be as God’s knowing good and evil”?

Have you read Genesis 3:22 where God himself says “man has become as one of us”?  Was God also lying?

 

 

[carbon dioxide]

On 2/21/2018 at 9:00 PM, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

We are judged more by our behavior than belief but belief is extremely important as it can guide our behavior.  For example, in order to repent and follow Christ (a behavior) one has to believe in Christ and the atonement. 

[Josh Khinder]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am confused.  You think the serpent was lying when he said that “ye shall be as God’s knowing good and evil”?

Have you read Genesis 3:22 where God himself says “man has become as one of us”?  Was God also lying?

 

 

Do you think God was saying Adam and eve are gods before Jehovah after sinning ? 

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Josh Khinder

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Do you think God was saying Adam and eve are gods before Jehovah after sinning ? 

 

Are you trying to be insulting on purpose?

[Josh Khinder]

29 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Are you trying to be insulting on purpose?

No I asked a question because it sounded like the teachings was Adam and Eve became gods after sinning 

[bluebell]

Just now, Josh Khinder said:

No I asked a question because it sounded like the teachings was Adam and Eve became gods after sinning 

The question wasn't insulting, but the picture is.  Why can't you just have a sincere discussion without always resorting to insulting us at the same time?  

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Do you think God was saying Adam and eve are gods before Jehovah after sinning ? 

I am saying nothing of the sort.

I am simply saying that Lucifer was not lying as your post stated.  God made that pretty clear.  Perhaps you should consider your own theological Jello you are standing on if you think God was lying.

Will you retract the statement you posted that Lucifer (and thus God) was lying?

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

No I asked a question because it sounded like the teachings was Adam and Eve became gods after sinning 

LDS belief is as stated in Genesis 3:22

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

By partaking of the fruit man became as gods (which is different than becoming gods) in that they understood the difference between good and evil, which they had not previously.

[Josh Khinder]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I am saying nothing of the sort.

I am simply saying that Lucifer was not lying as your post stated.  God made that pretty clear.  Perhaps you should consider your own theological Jello you are standing on if you think God was lying.

Will you retract the statement you posted that Lucifer (and thus God) was lying?

Isn't Lucifer the Father of lies, why would his words all of sudden be Gospel ? and why after sinning and knowing  eviling be a step up in there existence ?

Poster removed

[smac97]

On 2/21/2018 at 9:00 PM, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs. 

"We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..." (AoF 1:4)

"35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."  (Matthew 22)

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."  (John 14:15)

So it seems that belief (faith and love) predominate.  However, love is inextricably linked to behavior ("keep my commandments").

On 2/21/2018 at 9:00 PM, Meerkat said:

Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

The purpose of life is to learn and to grow and, if we so choose, to become like Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Thanks,

-Smac

[stemelbow]

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am saying nothing of the sort.

I am simply saying that Lucifer was not lying as your post stated.  God made that pretty clear.  Perhaps you should consider your own theological Jello you are standing on if you think God was lying.

Will you retract the statement you posted that Lucifer (and thus God) was lying?

I liked your approach in this response, pogi.  Thanks.  (can't give youa  rep point though, sorry).

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

We are judged more by our behavior than belief but belief is extremely important as it can guide our behavior.  For example, in order to repent and follow Christ (a behavior) one has to believe in Christ and the atonement. 

How about those who, although good people who were kind and acted according to their consciences, didn't gain a testimony of Jesus Christ in this life?  A friend of mine says they are condemned to hell for eternity.  Is that right?  Is knowing Jesus Christ pivotal in the judgment?  If so, how can it happen for the many who died without being allowed to hear the Good News by their governments, or geography?

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Isn't Lucifer the Father of lies, why would his words all of sudden be Gospel ? and why after sinning and knowing  eviling be a step up in there existence ?

He may be the father of lies, but where does it say he always lies?

If Lucifer was lying, then why did God corroborate his statement?  You are calling God a liar.  Accept it.  Your interpretation makes God a liar... yep, you too are subject to interpretation.  Sorry to ruin your day, but enjoy your Jello!

It is not the transgression that made them more “like” God, it was the fruit.  The fruit was good according to God.  He said that everything he planted in the garden was “good”.  Why did he forbid it?  Because they were not yet prepared for that sacrament.  They were not yet fully prepared to know as God knows...hence he hid from God after partaking.

Of course, this is my own interpretation and may differ from the average Mormon.

Now it is your turn to answer my question.  You are simply dodging with more questions while ignoring the plain as day confirmation from God that Lucifer was using the TRUTH to deceive in other ways.  He often uses scripture to mingle with his lies to make himself appear more credible.

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Isn't Lucifer the Father of lies, why would his words all of sudden be Gospel ? and why after sinning and knowing  eviling be a step up in there existence ?

You are aware that it was God, in Genesis, that declared that what satan had said would happen, had actually happened, right?

[ksfisher]

54 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Isn't Lucifer the Father of lies, why would his words all of sudden be Gospel ? and why after sinning and knowing  eviling be a step up in there existence ?

We need not look to Lucifer's words to understand the gospel.  God clearly declared in Genesis 3:22 that Adam and Eve had "...become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

It would seem self evident that the knowing the difference between good and evil is a desirable quality.  How else could one know to choose good and reject evil? 

[theplains]

14 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I'm not sure how that will work.  But I find some scriptures interesting, like Gen. 3:22, which states "22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:" and 1 John 3:2-3 "2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.  3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."  I think that's the doctrine you're talking about.  

Do you believe Adam and Eve became gods with their disobedience or just became like God?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

Knowing what you post - are you answering Meercat's question of how you personally feel or what you think LDS would/should answer? I'd really like to know how you would answer if you were speaking just of what you personally feel is more important.

I'm not LDS. I was just pointing to some church teaching manual. Personally, I believe that the purpose in life
is not to want to become a god but rather to give glory to the one and only God. As the 1997 Gospel Principles
points out, the spirit children of exalted beings will have the same relationship that they (the exalted beings)
have with their Heavenly Parents. I don't want any of my future children to worship me because worship only
belongs to the one and only God (who has always been God).

Thanks,
Jim