Lord, Lord, Have We Not....?

[followerofemmanuel]

Matthew 7:22-28

²² On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ²³ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

My question:

I recently have been asking my friends and even my pastor, who are many are who are being referred to here. Kinda scary to think that many people will come to stand before God expecting to spend eternity with God to find out otherwise. I do not want to be one of them. That is why I eagerly seek to understand this verse better and would value your thoughts.

I have heard a variety of answers. Mostly along the lines of people who are religious and do "good things" but do not truly have faith. Also, Paul's letter in Galations,

Faith or Works of the Law

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. ² I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? ³ Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?^{[a] 4} Have you experienced^[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? ⁵ So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? ⁶ So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”^[c]

⁷ Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. ⁸ Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”^{[d] 9} So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

¹⁰ For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”^{[e] 11} Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”^{[f] 12} The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”^{[g] 13} Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”^{[h] 14} He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I think the answer lies in the verse you did not start with...verse 21...

"Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven

, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"

I listed this via memory, so be kind if incorrect.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[TAO]

This reminds me a bit of a chapter in Miracle of Forgiveness... about the importance of true repentance, for all of the things you did wrong. Oftentimes, we get the wrong impression that either A) God isn't forgiving or the opposite end B) God is okay with inadequate repentance. The reality is, neither of these is true. We need to realize God forgives... but that we have to repent in sackclothes and ashes. I haven't learned this lesson fully yet, but it's something I am working on, I hope.

We must truly become what our Father wishes... and be as Christ, "Not my will but thine be done."

Edited November 5, 2012 by TAO

[CV75]

Matthew 7:22-28

I think He may have been referring to those He has not called and chosen, such as the false prophets in verses 15-20. Saying “Lord, Lord,” and to prophesy, cast out devils and do many wonderful works might refer to those who do such things without authority or worthiness. But to me the passage speaks of any other hypocrite as well.

[theplains]

We must truly become what our Father wishes... and be as Christ, "Not my will but thine be done."

... and be as gods.

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him--a god. He has said, "Behold,

this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39)."

Regards,

Jim

[followerofemmanuel]

This reminds me a bit of a chapter in Miracle of Forgiveness... about the importance of true repentance, for all of the things you did wrong. Oftentimes, we get the wrong impression that either A) God isn't forgiving or the opposite end B) God is okay with inadequate repentance. The reality is, neither of these is true. We need to realize God forgives... but that we have to repent in sackclothes and ashes. I haven't learned this lesson fully yet, but it's something I am working on, I hope.

We must truly become what our Father wishes... and be as Christ, "Not my will but thine be done."

Thanks Tao for your answer and transparency. Verses like the one in Mathew 7 have caused me to become legalistic which then causes me to do things in my own strength trying to please God vs what is said in Galatians to rely on Christs perfect sacrfice and try to become more like him. Sometimes I have a hard time excepting God's grace throguh Christ and try and "earn my way" so to speak which is exhausting. My heart is mostly in the right place, not wanting to become lukewarm (Rev 3:16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!) in anyway which seems to be a daily descision with all there is in this world competing for my time, devotion, interests etc.

[followerofemmanuel]

I think He may have been referring to those He has not called and chosen, such as the false prophets in verses 15-20. Saying “Lord, Lord,” and to prophesy, cast out devils and do many wonderful works might refer to those who do such things without authority or worthiness. But to me the passage speaks of any other hypocrite as well.

So on your take of this, do you think the people referred here kinda know their living in hypocracy or will they be totally surprised as it seems in the scripture.

[Mark Beesley]

My question:

I recently have been asking my friends and even my pastor, who are many are who are being referred to here. Kinda scary to think that many people will come to stand before God expecting to spend eternity with God to find out otherwise. I do not want to be one of them. That is why I eagerly seek to understand this verse better and would value your thoughts.

I have heard a variety of answers. Mostly along the lines of people who are religious and do "good things" but do not truly have faith.

It can be sometimes difficult to reconcile some of the things Paul wrote with the things Christ said and the things other Apostles wrote. There is a definite tension between differing viewpoints as to whether one is saved simply believing or whether one must act on faith, i.e. be engaged in good works.

I would keep in mind a couple of things in resolving the tension.

First, if there is some tension between what Christ said and what Paul said, I'd go with the Savior's words. He seems to put more emphasis on following up faith with good works.

Second, it can be difficult to understand Paul's writings in context because we don't have the full context. We have Paul's responses to questions that may have been posed to him, or events he may have observed, but we don't have those questions or a full description of those events.

To a great extent, I think Paul's writings regarding salvation based on faith were in response to an excessive reliance by some on things they were doing that were not particularly difficult to do but that they could point to and boast about how "faithful" they were. I think of people who go to church every week, pay their tithing, go to the temple, keep the word of wisdom, etc., but turn their head away from the beggar on the street corner, or the widow who struggles to keep her yard groomed. In the end, more than the "works of the law" are the works of love that will count to our credit.

[followerofemmanuel]

It can be sometimes difficult to reconcile some of the things Paul wrote with the things Christ said and the things other Apostles wrote. There is a definite tension between differing viewpoints as to whether one is saved simply believing or whether one must act on faith, i.e. be engaged in good works.

I would keep in mind a couple of things in resolving the tension.

First, if there is some tension between what Christ said and what Paul said, I'd go with the Savior's words. He seems to put more emphasis on following up faith with good works.

Second, it can be difficult to understand Paul's writings in context because we don't have the full context. We have Paul's responses to questions that may have been posed to him, or events he may have observed, but we don't have those questions or a full description of those events.

To a great extent, I think Paul's writings regarding salvation based on faith were in response to an excessive reliance by some on things they were doing that were not particularly difficult to do but that they could point to and boast about how "faithful" they were. I think of people who go to church every week, pay their tithing, go to the temple, keep the word of wisdom, etc., but turn their head away from the beggar on the street corner, or the widow who struggles to keep her yard groomed. In the end, more than the "works of the law" are the works of love that will count to our credit.

Thank you for your thoughts. There does seem to be that tension in scripture. I'm trying to discern the line between faith and works and where they over lap. We know that faith without works is dead. Works without love is worthless. So I will continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. Blessings.

[CV75]

So on your take of this, do you think the people referred here kinda know their living in hypocracy or will they be totally surprised as it seems in the scripture.

I think they are trying to negotiate or plea bargain with the Lord and so they are not surprised. But I don't think this disqualifies those headed for the spirit prison from learning their lessons there and repenting before the resurrection.

[CV75]

I'm trying to discern the line between faith and works and where they over lap.

Maybe there isn't a line at all--both are choices we make according to aligning our agency with God's will.

[followerofemmanuel]

I think they are trying to negotiate or plea bargain with the Lord and so they are not surprised. But I don't think this disqualifies those headed for the spirit prison from learning their lessons there and repenting before the resurrection.

Thanks CV. What do you mean by spirit prison. I have not heard that term before. Where is your understanding on that come from?

[CV75]

Thanks CV. What do you mean by spirit prison. I have not heard that term before. Where is your understanding on that come from?

Take a look at this link:

http://www.lds.org/topics/death-physical?lang=eng

[Garden Girl]

To a great extent, I think Paul's writings regarding salvation based on faith were in response to an excessive reliance by some on things they were doing that were not particularly difficult to do but that they could point to and boast about how "faithful" they were. I think of people who go to church every week, pay their tithing, go to the temple, keep the word of wisdom, etc., but turn their head away from the beggar on the street corner, or the widow who struggles to keep her yard groomed. In the end, more than the "works of the law" are the works of love that will count to our credit.

Hello follower...

I agree with MB that when we perform "works," that in order for those works to be counted for good or righteousness, we must do so with love in our hearts and proper intent. Otherwise, they mean nothing... and IMO actually condemn us when the "books are opened" and we are judged "according to their works." (Rev. 20:12).

from the beach on a wintry morn, raindrops glistening on the barren branches of the trees as they catch the sun's light...

GG

[thesometimesaint]

GG:

I don't know how far we can take that. The Good Samaritian still did good.

[Vance]

Verses like the one in Mathew 7 have caused me to become legalistic which then causes me to do things in my own strength trying to please God vs what is said in Galatians to rely on Christs perfect sacrfice and try to become more like him.

I think you are misunderstanding what Paul meant by the phrase "works of the law".

When Paul uses that phrase he is referring to the law of Moses, not the commandments of God that preceded it. Abraham was obedient to the commandments of God because he had faith in God, long before Moses and the law of Moses.

Sometimes I have a hard time excepting God's grace throguh Christ and try and "earn my way" so to speak which is exhausting.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for you or anyone else to "earn (your) way" without accepting the atonement/gospel of Christ. So you can stop worrying about ever, ever doing it.

[Vance]

Hello follower...

I agree with MB that when we perform "works," that in order for those works to be counted for good or righteousness, we must do so with love in our hearts and proper intent. Otherwise, they mean nothing... and IMO actually condemn us when the "books are opened" and we are judged "according to their works." (Rev. 20:12).

from the beach on a wintry morn, raindrops glistening on the barren branches of the trees as they catch the sun's light...

GG

The problem is we have to start somewhere.

There are at least three motivators, fear, duty, love.

It is perfectly acceptable to start obeying the commandments of God with fear as the primary motivator. For as we continue to obey, our motivation grows/changes. We grow from fear, to duty, and then from duty to love as our testimony (having the Spirit with us) grows.

So, start where you are regardless of your current motive. Get on the path, and as you continue, your love for God (and others) will grow.

[ERMD]

Thanks Tao for your answer and transparency. Verses like the one in Mathew 7 have caused me to become legalistic which then causes me to do things in my own strength trying to please God vs what is said in Galatians to rely on Christs perfect sacrfice and try to become more like him. Sometimes I have a hard time excepting God's grace throguh Christ and try and "earn my way" so to speak which is exhausting. My heart is mostly in the right place, not wanting to become lukewarm (Rev 3:16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!) in anyway which seems to be a daily descision with all there is in this world competing for my time, devotion, interests etc.

http://byutv.org/watch/49475abb-10d4-4f45-a757-7000b9945468

[Mark Beesley]

The problem is we have to start somewhere.

There are at least three motivators, fear, duty, love.

It is perfectly acceptable to start obeying the commandments of God with fear as the primary motivator. For as we continue to obey, our motivation grows/changes. We grow from fear, to duty, and then from duty to love as our testimony (having the Spirit with us) grows.

So, start where you are regardless of your current motive. Get on the path, and as you continue, your love for God (and others) will grow.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Fear is a horrible motivator when it comes to obedience. It leads to resentment and hypocrisy.

Someone who acts only out of duty will begrudge having to do so, and we know what a gift given grudgingly gets you.

There is NO reason why love cannot be the initial, primary, and sole motivating force for our efforts to be obedient. It's not like love is some mystical force hidden from us. It is part and parcel of who we are and it is our own fears that keep it buried.

So, no, I don't think we progress to love from a beginning of fear or duty. We start with love.

[Mark Beesley]

GG:

I don't know how far we can take that. The Good Samaritian still did good.

The Good Samaritan is a perfect example for the proposition. He acted solely out of a sense of love and compassion.

[Vance]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Fear is a horrible motivator when it comes to obedience. It leads to resentment and hypocrisy.

Someone who acts only out of duty will begrudge having to do so, and we know what a gift given grudgingly gets you.

There is NO reason why love cannot be the initial, primary, and sole motivating force for our efforts to be obedient. It's not like love is some mystical force hidden from us. It is part and parcel of who we are and it is our own fears that keep it buried.

So, no, I don't think we progress to love from a beginning of fear or duty. We start with love.

I don't mind your disagreement.

May I suggest you start here?

http://www.lds.org/search?query=duty〈=eng

[Mark Beesley]

I don't mind your disagreement.

May I suggest you start here?

http://www.lds.org/s...y=duty〈=eng

Thanks, but I'd rather start here.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[teddyaware]

Thanks Tao for your answer and transparency. Verses like the one in Mathew 7 have caused me to become legalistic which then causes me to do things in my own strength trying to please God vs what is said in Galatians to rely on Christs perfect sacrfice and try to become more like him. Sometimes I have a hard time excepting God's grace throguh Christ and try and "earn my way" so to speak which is exhausting. My heart is mostly in the right place, not wanting to become lukewarm (Rev 3:16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!) in anyway which seems to be a daily descision with all there is in this world competing for my time, devotion, interests etc.

Christ suffered, died and rose from the dead for us for two primary purposes. The first is that we might be justified by his atoning sacrifice. Justification means to be acquitted or forgiven of our sins. The second primary purpose of Christ's sacrifice is that we be sanctified in him. This means, in addition to sacrificing his precious blood, he also sacrificed the indwelling presence of the fullness of the Spirit of God he enjoyed, that we might receive that same indwelling fulness of the Spirit of God. This is the Gift of the Holy Ghost that enables us to live, feel, think and act as he did. In other words, he gave us a gift of spiritual empowerment that enables us to become holy as he is holy. By making his Spirit available to us, he enables us to become proactively righteous in word, thought and deed, not merely forgiven.

In order to take full advantage of this exceedingly precious gift of sactification Christ bequeathed to us through his sacrifice and resurrection, we must make diligent and faithful efforts to do God's will, even as he obeyed his Father's will. But in doing this we must recognize our mere human efforts alone, unaided by the gracious empowerment of God, will never bring about our sanctification. One of the most wonderful scriptures that underscores our utter dependence on the powers and gifts of God, as we strive in faith to become more like our Saviour, is found in the Book of Mormon's last chapter. It says:

"24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God."

Attempting to work out one's salvation, without the power and gifts of God to assist, results in what the Apostle Paul calls dead works. Dead works are works performed unassisted, by human effort alone, without the endowments of the power and gifts of God.

So, to answer the question of your original post that started this thread: Those who claimed to have done many mighty works in the name of Christ, but were, nevertheless, rejected of him, are those who perform dead works devoid of living faith. Those who are accepted of him are those who's works are counted for righteousness, because they are works performed by means of the gifts and powers of God, which gifts and powers are made available by the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.

Edited November 6, 2012 by teddyaware

[Vance]

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Fear is a horrible motivator when it comes to obedience. It leads to resentment and hypocrisy.

I disagree. I would prefer children not play in the street. Fear off being run over and smashed is a good motivator when it comes to obedience.

Yes, yes, love is the best motivator. But fear is better than no motivator at all.

[thesometimesaint]

The Good Samaritan is a perfect example for the proposition. He acted solely out of a sense of love and compassion.

I don't believe so. The Samaritans lacked faith, at least according to the Jews.