What's most important in the Grand Scheme: Behavior, or Belief?

[Eek!]

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:00 PM, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn? 

And quoting from your thread title, Behavior or belief?

Our actions arise from our thoughts.  Thoughts are the cause, behavior is the effect.  So focusing on behavior is focusing on the symptoms, not the malady.  A person may change their behavior through sheer willpower, but that is hard to maintain.  Far more efficient to make change on the level where it's actually needed. 

One's creed may or may not play a major role in one's thoughts.  I do not believe creeds have any power to "save" in and of themselves.  For example, the creed of many Christians is to believe something ABOUT Jesus.  Seems to me Jesus was much more interested in people actually BELIEVING the words He said (choosing correct thoughts), and DOING the things He said to do (the effects of those thoughts).  He went so far as to say that we are supposed to become the same manner of man that He is.  Becoming the same manner of man as Jesus would be my nomination for "what we came here to learn".  

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 9:57 PM, strappinglad said:

What if, like multitudes on the earth ,we  believe that to please our god we must sacrifice our children on a red hot altar , or thrown virgins into a volcano , or kill a man and spread his blood over the land to increase its fertility? What if for generations there is no recognition of the true God of the universe and the children are raised to hate their neighbors? What if , because of the " traditions of the fathers " , actions are guided by rules that God abhors ? On what is the judgment to be based, belief or actions ?

 

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:39 AM, Meerkat said:

Excellent question.  Would anyone like to take a stab at this one?

Well this is probably cheating, but I subscribe to the "multiple mortal probations" theory, which at a minimum gives God more than one chance to give someone a "fair shot" lifetime, and doesn't require Him to judge people by what they "would have done" (if that's good enough to judge someone by, then why not judge all of us that way??). 

In the example given, if the person listens to the voice of their soul saying "this ain't right" and actively resists the injustice that was all around them, which probably would cost them their life, that person would have made enormous strides towards becoming the same manner of man as Jesus.  So a lifetime like the one described is actually a great opportunity for a person to be of service and to really cover some ground, and imo it doesn't matter whether, to all outward appearances, his efforts "fail". 

If the person follows the path of least resistance, which is of course what most people do most of the time, then that lesson would remain unlearned, and imo would present itself to them another time. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Eek!

[theplains]

On 28/02/2018 at 1:43 AM, Meerkat said:

Learning obedience throughout their lives, they became better prepared to live where God lives and through eons, become like Him-- glorified, perfected, sinless.  That's my two cents.

The scripture records that Adam and Eve had become like God, but they did not become glorified, perfected, sinless beings.

So the term 'like God' is not exaltation.

Jim

[Meerkat]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

The scripture records that Adam and Eve had become like God, but they did not become glorified, perfected, sinless beings.

So the term 'like God' is not exaltation.

Jim

I can't argue with you there.  Knowing right from wrong is but one attribute of God.  But exaltation requires certain choices that we make, and resurrection.  I like the implied progression described in 1 John 3:1-3:

"1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

[theplains]

On 08/03/2018 at 7:00 PM, Meerkat said:

I like the implied progression described in 1 John 3:1-3:

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of
bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness
with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we
suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

From what I understand of LDS theology, only the exalted gods are considered joint-heirs with Christ and children of God.

Jim

[Meerkat]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of
bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness
with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we
suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

From what I understand of LDS theology, only the exalted gods are considered joint-heirs with Christ and children of God.

Jim

That's a great scripture.  Romans 8:14-17 fits perfectly with the theology I believe.  It also supports 1 John 3:1-3.  I believe that if we are led by the Spirit, when we are resurrected, we will be like Him with glorified, perfected bodies.  There's a lot we don't know about what the future holds. 1 John 3:2 says "2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be..."   Paul said in 1 Cor. 13 "12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." My desire is to live worthy of the Savior's sacrifice for me as best I can.  Other than that, I don't know what to expect other that eternal life with my loved ones in the presence of God, and a continuation of the joy that came into my life when Jesus Christ saved me from a life of sin.   As you said, I also like the progression these scriptures imply.  But honestly, I don't know what it means for sure.  

Judgment is in God's hands.  I expect all who love God and live according to the light they have been given will be blessed accordingly. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Meerkat

[theplains]

On 13/03/2018 at 11:50 PM, Meerkat said:

Other than that, I don't know what to expect other that eternal life with my loved ones in the presence of God, and a continuation of the joy that came into my life when Jesus Christ saved me from a life of sin. 

Do you believe you or your wife (if married) can have eternal life in a single state in case you or your spouse doesn't endure
to the end?  D&C would say no.

Jim

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Do you believe you or your wife (if married) can have eternal life in a single state in case you or your spouse doesn't endure
to the end?  D&C would say no.

Jim

Salvation is an individual matter.  I can't save you.  You can't save me.  Each individual, through faith in Jesus Christ and enduring to the end will receive salvation.  That is what I believe.

Russell M. Nelson, while serving as an apostle, said this back in 2008:

"Resurrection, or immortality, comes to every man and every woman as an unconditional gift." (As in Adam, all die.  So in Christ shall all be made alive.)

            " Eternal life, or celestial glory or exaltation, is a conditional gift. Conditions of this gift have been established by the Lord, who said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple.
                No man in this Church can obtain the highest degree of celestial glory without a worthy woman who is sealed to him. This temple ordinance enables eventual exaltation for both of them."  

That is the teaching.  How that will work, I don't know.  There have been many throughout history who never married.  Eunuchs, Priests and Nuns, people who had no interest in marriage at the time.  You name the circumstance.  I believe God is merciful and fair.  He will work it out.  In the mean time, my faith is centered in Christ.  I intend to endure to the end and look forward to a joyful reunion with God, my wife, family and friends.  I believe if we loved God and our fellow beings, we will have an eternity of joy to look forward to, be it LDS, Baptist, Lutheran or any of God's faithful children.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Meerkat

[theplains]

On 15/03/2018 at 9:06 PM, Meerkat said:

" Eternal life, or celestial glory or exaltation, is a conditional gift. Conditions of this gift have been established by the Lord, who said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple.

Have you ever received a gift in your life which was not conditional on your good or bad behaviour (like in receiving a gift
at Christmas from someone anonymous)?  

From my experience on the forum, I think LDS view eternal life more as a reward earned for good behaviour rather than
an unconditional gift.

Jim

[Meerkat]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Have you ever received a gift in your life which was not conditional on your good or bad behaviour (like in receiving a gift
at Christmas from someone anonymous)?  

From my experience on the forum, I think LDS view eternal life more as a reward earned for good behaviour rather than
an unconditional gift.

Jim

I've visited with many Evangelicals over the years-- wonderful people who have invited Jesus Christ into their lives, as have we.  He has transformed them from their sinful past into righteous vessels of the Holy Ghost.  They accepted the price He paid for their sins, and they are not the same as they were before.  Jesus attributes His righteousness to them.  Their sorrow has been replaced with the joy of Christ in their hearts. And they are examples of their Savior's love to many of their friends and acquaintences because they have been transformed by Jesus Christ.

I find it interesting that those good people, most or all of them, have used language like you used to tell me what I and Latter-day Saints believe, rather than ask.  They make statements like yours. No matter what I say, they tell me "No, you believe in works, not Grace." 

I agree with Isaiah's statemement about works:

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Then Christ came into my life, and verse 8 describes what happened to me (and I believe most faithful Latter day Saints): "8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."  I also believe that is what happened to my dear Baptist neighbor and my other Evangelical friends.

Your second paragraph implies that Mormons see Christ's Atonement as a conditional gift.  Yes, and no:

Yes: This is how we see the Savior's sacrifice as unconditional: "19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
            20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
            21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
            22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor. 15:19-22.

And no: This is the conditional part: We believe that, once Christ has come into our lives through faith in Him and repentance, we have a duty to help in the transformation by making a conscientious descision to follow Him, and live as He expects us to.  We believe the apostle Paul when he says in Galations 6:7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
            8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
            9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."  (In other words, our works are important.)

I fail to see how encouraging our members to act like Christians, as Paul told them to do, that doing good works (filthy rags that they are,) somehow diminish Christ's sacrifice for us. 

I believe many Christians also see the importance of actually becoming new creatures in Christ by observing the conditions He commanded: Repent and be baptized.  The Savior came to enable me to experience a change in behavior by living and thinking differently than I did before.  All praise belongs to Him and none to me.  That does not absolve me from making an effort to do good in my life.  

I see many of our differences as semantic.  Do you love Jesus? Yes.  Does your life teflect that love? Again, yes.  Do I love Jesus? Yes.  Does my life reflect that love?  Not always, but I am working on it.  Inasmuch as I fall short, I believe He has paid my entire price and I expect to dwell with Him one day.

Please let me know what part you don't understand.  I will try to explain better.

Sincerely,

Meerkat

[waveslider]

On 2/21/2018 at 6:00 PM, Meerkat said:

Is the right Church or creed the important thing, or is there something else we came here to learn?   I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.  That would add to our understanding of each other.  We have a good mix of people here.  I wonder if we could talk about our first person experiences on the subject and support it with simple faith, scriptures, opinion without putting anyone on the spot about their beliefs.  Maybe another way to frame the question is "What is the point of all this?  What is the purpose of this life?  Is it to embrace a certain belief, or is it to live a certain way?"  Or is it something else?

I think we often miss the mark by trying to dissect what we need to learn to do in this life. It won’t matter if we embrace the right church or creed, and even try and live a certain way, if we don’t hear our Savior’s voice and obey it. Just like the parable of the ten virgins. By being virgins, IMO, means they were living very right, and that they also symbolized those in the right church. A virgin to me is as pure as one can be. 5 of them were foolish and didn’t bring any oil with their lamps. They got locked out even though they were supposed to be part of the wedding party. Even other virgins (more very good people) came to try and replace the foolish ones who got locked out, but they too were turned away. I think hearing, and obeying, the voice of our Savior is just like having the oil in our lamps. We all are born with an inner enlightenment, commonly called our conscience: 

D&C 93:2 And that I am the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world;

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Moroni 7:16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil;......

We can either learn to heed that light of Christ, or we can try and bury it until we no longer even feel it and darkness is all that’s left. As we obey it, we learn to hear it better and better, unless we too decide to bury it instead. Eventually we will be led toward our Savior because it truly is His voice, and we will be led to embrace His church and be given the gift of the Holy Ghost. We could just go through the motions without learning to hear His voice, but we won’t be able to actually receive that gift until we know how to recognize His voice, and live pure enough to be worthy of that gift, utilizing the great atoning mercy to become worthy anyway.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Alma 5:38 Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.

39 And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil.

D&C 84:51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

The vision that Lehi, and his son Nephi afterwards, saw tells me exactly what we need to do in this life. (I don’t want to copy and paste it because it’s too long, but starts around 1 Nephi 8 or so, if I remember correctly) First off it tells us what is the most thing we can desire.... the love of God. In order to feast upon that we have to first obtain it’s source, and then we need to stay and keep enjoying it, while ignoring the scoffers, with man’s wisdom. In order to obtain it we need to grasp the iron rod, which is literally the word of God. Holding onto the word of God will ensure that we make it to that destination, regardless of not seeing the path the entire time, which  means to me that we can’t use our intellect alone to stay on the path. The word of God comes from many sources, but the main source that will for sure carry us to our destination is personal revelation, or in other words, His voice, which doesn’t contradict the other sources anyway. The reason I believe it’s mainly by His voice is because there have been some people who have read the Bible, Book Of Mormon, listened to prophets, etc., who have fallen off of the path, but if you are following His voice all along the way you can’t go wrong, unless you decide to let go. 

If we continue to partake of the love of God, we will by default be obeying the commandments, we will know His voice and obey until the end, but if we cease to partake, even if we already had partaken, then we aren’t enduring to the end. If we endure to the end this way, we will not only have eternal life, but exaltation too, which means we can progress to our full potential as children of our Father in Heaven. This potential means growing up to be just like Him, but not replacing Him as some in error believe, thinking it’s blasphemy:

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

This just means we will be one with Him:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Moses 7:18 And the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.

That’s how I believe it to be anyway.