Doctrine Of Christ

[DBMormon]

Grace – The Enabling power of Jesus Christ

Grace is likely the most under appreciated principle of the gospel. Yet it is also one of the most needed and important. As we discussed earlier it is impossible for us to earn our Salvation. It is impossible for us to overcome our weakness on our own. It is impossible for us to be sanctified and saved in the Kingdom by our own merits. If we add the Grace of God we can do each of these things. God’s grace does several amazing things for us and I hope you might bear with me as we go through many of them. Grace is the power which enables us to become perfect. It is not a gift given at the end after all we can do. It is how we become both perfected in Him and truly perfect in some future point to be exalted While these two states of perfection are described later we need to know what gives us Grace and how we increase it. Without Grace we will always be unclean and imperfect and unable to truly rise above the natural man.

Grace enters the picture as soon as we begin to exercise real Faith (Ether 12:27, Romans 12:3) Ether 12:27 tells us that Christ can make our Weaknesses into Strengths. It is by Grace that this miracle occurs (2nd Corinthians 12:9). Grace varies in amount from person to person based on their faith and humility (James 4:6). We are also taught that once we have grace, if we begin to develop pride again that we can lose the grace we had. It is a gift and blessing that can only be given and kept by our meekness, faith, and continual trying to be Christlike. We know that all blessing are predicated on obedience to certain laws. Grace is a blessing, and it is predicated on continued faith and humility. John 1:16 and D&C 93:13 tell us that as we press forward in this law, Grace shall be added to Grace. That there is always more grace to gain or to lose based on our moving forward toward Christ or our turning from him.

There are some of you who still feel that this blessing of Grace is tied to our Works or to our keeping the law of commandments. It is not. It is only tied to Faith and humility where in it enters in. It then continues to be given to us in increasing increments as we progress in the Law of the Gospel (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost, Endure to the end). We can see that from Romans 11:6. Even James tells us God gives Grace to the Humble, and we see from Ether that it is in being the natural man and falling short that we see our weakness and in return humble ourselves. Remember it is about turning to Christ not to our own efforts (2nd Timothy 1:9). That has been the plan from the beginning in the councils of heaven.

Paul shows us clearly that our Works if they are sincere are a result of Grace working within us. Indeed it is the Grace that leads to our doing things through this awesome gift. He also indicates that the grace comes first after his faith and that he has allowed it to work within him and not be given to him in vain (1 Corinthians 15:11). If we go to LDS.ORG and look up in the topical guide the word GRACE we see that it is the enabling power given to us to accomplish what we can’t on our own and that it is predicated on keeping this “law of the gospel”. It is included here in case there is ever a change in the online format so that it is accessible. The following three paragraphs are from the LDS.ORG site. Notice in referring to obedience to commandments Grace is based on our trying to keep them, not on our exact obedience. This is because we need to have the gift of Grace first before there is any hope of progressing in our path of perfection or true obedience.

Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and “trying” to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8-9; James 2:17-22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20). The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).

Rather than relying on so many other things, God wants us to rely on Christ and to recognize his grace is sufficient. We are told his grace is sufficient in several scriptures (D&C 18:31, Moroni 10:32, Ether 12:26-27, 2nd Corinthians 12:9, and D&C 17:8 ) . Moroni 10:32-33 tells us how Grace makes us Perfected in Christ and then allows us later on by progressing to be truly Perfect with him. 2nd Corinthians 12:9 helps see how Paul knowing he had God’s Grace could care less about his flaws, weakness, infirmities. That doesn’t mean he isn’t trying to choose the right or that he is telling us he is saved by grace alone. He is simply stating that as long as he is progressing, learning, and repenting; that Grace is being given to him and he recognizes it is better to have this gift than personal righteousness as one saves and the other doesn’t.

The Atonement and Repentance work together through the gift of Grace (Ephesians 1:7). Paul also seems to indicate that while he and others were spiritually dead that it was Grace which brought them into a life with Christ. There are lots of angles to see this scripture from, but I often wonder how we see Saul/Paul as this horrible man who worked to tear down the church including his participation in the stoning of Stephen and then after his vision on the road to Damascus as this person who received an undeserved blessing at the hands of God. Yet two things – 1) - do we know if Paul humbled himself in some way and asked God if this Christ was real to reveal him and 2) - Each of us is undeserving of any of the blessings God has in store for us. His Kingdom is perfect and we are not. Grace by definition implies being given something we do not deserve. Heavenly Father loves us that much. So what with the 2nd Nephi 25:23 “After all we can do”?. Reverse these two sentences in this scripture and I think we begin to better understand what Nephi was trying to say.

“After all we can do, It is by grace we are saved”. In other words, Even after all we can do, it is Grace that saves us. That doesn’t take away what we have to do, only that it is Grace and not the works that Save. Works are still essential part of the plan, but not as some checklist that when accomplished leads back to Heavenly Father and his Son. If there is still any doubt here than 2nd Nephi 10:24 should put an end to it.

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.”

Edited May 25, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

Fellow of Emmanuel - Thank you. Also like your moniker Author and Finisher of of faith... that is what I truly believe... he finshes us. we make an effort but it is his grace that finishes us

Edited May 25, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

Log

May I contribute this reference?

Check my profile for more.

I agree with this papaer in all thr things required..... only disagreement is with be careful to recognize the difference in keeping the commandments becasue God has asked us to to push us to make our best effort to become like him and to push us to refine ourselves through his grace it perhaps being implied hat our perfect obedience has merit in rewarding us with exhaltation? which I do not believe it does

Edited May 25, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

Mercy

Mercy is another wonderful gift from God and goes hand in hand with Grace. Robert Millet explained it this way. He saw Grace as lifting us to more than we can do on our own. He sees Mercy as giving more forgiveness than we deserve. We need Mercy as much as Grace as it is the gift that enables us to be forgiven as we repent. This gift is needed, as saying we are sorry doesn’t actually erase a wrong we did. His Mercy, undeserved as it is based on the law, removes the wrongs we have committed as we repent.

Moroni 10:3 reminds us the Lord has been Merciful to all his children through the ages. He wants us to know that while some see the God of the Old Testament as mean and full of wrath and jealousy, that this is the same Loving God of the New Testament. Indeed both are the Merciful Christ, son of the Living God. A Father and a Son who both so loved the world that they freely gave the Son's life, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Alma 29:10 reminds us how we should strive to always remember the Mercy of God and its power to cleanse us from sin.

[zerinus]

Mercy

Mercy is another wonderful gift from God and goes hand in hand with Grace. Robert Millet explained it this way. He saw Grace as lifting us to more than we can do on our own. He sees Mercy as giving more forgiveness than we deserve. We need Mercy as much as Grace as it is the gift that enables us to be forgiven as we repent. This gift is needed, as saying we are sorry doesn’t actually erase a wrong we did. His Mercy, undeserved as it is based on the law, removes the wrongs we have committed as we repent.

Moroni 10:3 reminds us the Lord has been Merciful to all his children through the ages. He wants us to know that while some see the God of the Old Testament as mean and full of wrath and jealousy, that this is the same Loving God of the New Testament. Indeed both are the Merciful Christ, son of the Living God. A Father and a Son who both so loved the world that they freely gave the Son's life, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Alma 29:10 reminds us how we should strive to always remember the Mercy of God and its power to cleanse us from sin.

Except that mercy is not unconditional, but is made conditional on repentance:

Jacob 6:

5 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I beseech of you in words of soberness that ye would repent, and come with full purpose of heart, and cleave unto God as he cleaveth unto you. And while his arm of mercy is extended towards you in the light of the day, harden not your hearts.

Mosiah 16:

12 Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

Mosiah 27:

28 Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God.

Alma 3:

14 Thus the word of God is fulfilled, for these are the words which he said to Nephi: Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed, from this time henceforth and forever, except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them.

Alma 5:

33 Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.

Alma 12:

33 But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son

34 Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.

Alma 34:

15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.

16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.

17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you

Alma 42:

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to preach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.

Ether 11:

8 And the people began to repent of their iniquity; and inasmuch as they did the Lord did have mercy on them.

So as you can see, no matter what you do, you keep coming back to that dreaded thing called repentance!

[longview]

This is an interesting discussion. But one thought has continued to persist in my mind throughout that does not appear to have been addressed. As part of the process of "enduring to the end" we need to participate in the Sacrament which allows us to: (1) renew our baptismal covenant, (2) review our actions in the prior week [or weeks], (3) resolve to apply the teachings of the Savior to try to do better [or to BE better]. Obviously, if we have behaved badly or made a serious mistake, we should resolve the problem BEFORE participating in the sacrament.

It has been taught that we do not obtain ALL of the "benefit" of the Atonement at once in the next life. But we do acquire a small increment of the Atonement each time we participate in the sacrament. Thereby we become more exalted by small degrees continually to the end of life. D&C explains that we should try to obtain "a portion of the Celestial spirit" in this life in hopes of qualifying for a Celestial Resurrection.

Then the Savior provides the full measure of His Atonement in the next life to take us ALL the way to "perfection". On the other hand, if one chooses to become "inactive" or "play hooky" in this life, then he has disregarded the power of the Atonement and will have to suffer for his sins in the next life in order to "move on" to the "next step" [whatever that might be].

Another thing. Elder Bednar has taught that the baptism and the sacrament allows us to express "willingness" to put the name of Christ on us but we can only actually do that when we obtain further ordinances in the Temple [with power from on high].

[followerofemmanuel]

This is an interesting discussion. But one thought has continued to persist in my mind throughout that does not appear to have been addressed. As part of the process of "enduring to the end" we need to participate in the Sacrament which allows us to: (1) renew our baptismal covenant, (2) review our actions in the prior week [or weeks], (3) resolve to apply the teachings of the Savior to try to do better [or to BE better]. Obviously, if we have behaved badly or made a serious mistake, we should resolve the problem BEFORE participating in the sacrament.

It has been taught that we do not obtain ALL of the "benefit" of the Atonement at once in the next life. But we do acquire a small increment of the Atonement each time we participate in the sacrament. Thereby we become more exalted by small degrees continually to the end of life. D&C explains that we should try to obtain "a portion of the Celestial spirit" in this life in hopes of qualifying for a Celestial Resurrection.

Then the Savior provides the full measure of His Atonement in the next life to take us ALL the way to "perfection". On the other hand, if one chooses to become "inactive" or "play hooky" in this life, then he has disregarded the power of the Atonement and will have to suffer for his sins in the next life in order to "move on" to the "next step" [whatever that might be].

Another thing. Elder Bednar has taught that the baptism and the sacrament allows us to express "willingness" to put the name of Christ on us but we can only actually do that when we obtain further ordinances in the Temple [with power from on high].

So is your view like conditional grace? Like if someone says, I'm taking you out for lunch...my treat (offer of salvation from sins if)...you pay what you can (by participating sacraments and obeying the law etc) and I'll cover the rest (grace for where you fall short). I just want to really understand your perspective.

[zerinus]

So is your view like conditional grace? Like if someone says, I'm taking you out for lunch...my treat (offer of salvation from sins if)...you pay what you can (by participating sacraments and obeying the law etc) and I'll cover the rest (grace for where you fall short). I just want to really understand your perspective.

I don't know about him. I am not interested in what he is saying. But grace is conditional on repentance. It would be like saying to someone, "I will take you out to lunch, and give you a treat, on condition that you promise me you will be a good boy, behave yourself, and will not be naughty any more.

[followerofemmanuel]

I don't know about him. I am not interested in what he is saying. But grace is conditional on repentance. It would be like saying to someone, "I will take you out to lunch, and give you a treat, on condition that you promise me you will be a good boy, behave yourself, and will not be naughty any more.

Thanks Zerinus, thanks for sharing that

[longview]

So is your view like conditional grace? Like if someone says, I'm taking you out for lunch...my treat (offer of salvation from sins if)...you pay what you can (by participating sacraments and obeying the law etc) and I'll cover the rest (grace for where you fall short). I just want to really understand your perspective.

No. There are two parts to the Atonement [Grace]. First part is unconditional [totally free] which is given to EVERY person born into this world regardless if they were monstrous people such as Hitler, Attila the Hun, or any other depraved or violent perpetrators. That gift is the resurrection entailing the reunification of the body and the spirit [your actual person] with some degree of glory [Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, ...]

The other part is conditional but NOT in the sense that the Savior needs us to do part of the work. Nothing we do will MERIT any fraction of the Atonement. We are totally dependent on Him. But He does require us to exert ourselves in obedience, faith [extremely important], learning, wisdom, empathy, humility, all things that we experience in this "vale of tears". These efforts are required in order to fulfill the purpose for having mortal [probationary] experiences and to fully participate in the process of the Atonement which our Lord so graciously has offered to us, which is to exalt us and allow us to become like Him. But not everybody will want to exist in the Celestial realm, they may prefer lower kingdoms or even outer darkness.

I don't know about him. I am not interested in what he is saying. But grace is conditional on repentance. It would be like saying to someone, "I will take you out to lunch, and give you a treat, on condition that you promise me you will be a good boy, behave yourself, and will not be naughty any more.

Not quite. Repentance alone is not enough. We will not MERIT anything with simple promises. We need to go through a refining process . . .

Moroni 10:32

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:20

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

[followerofemmanuel]

No. There are two parts to the Atonement [Grace]. First part is unconditional [totally free] which is given to EVERY person born into this world regardless if they were monstrous people such as Hitler, Attila the Hun, or any other depraved or violent perpetrators. That gift is the resurrection entailing the reunification of the body and the spirit [your actual person] with some degree of glory [Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, ...]

The other part is conditional but NOT in the sense that the Savior needs us to do part of the work. Nothing we do will MERIT any fraction of the Atonement. We are totally dependent on Him. But He does require us to exert ourselves in obedience, faith [extremely important], learning, wisdom, empathy, humility, all things that we experience in this "vale of tears". These efforts are required in order to fulfill the purpose for having mortal [probationary] experiences and to fully participate in the process of the Atonement which our Lord so graciously has offered to us, which is to exalt us and allow us to become like Him. But not everybody will want to exist in the Celestial realm, they may prefer lower kingdoms or even outer darkness.

Not quite. Repentance alone is not enough. We will not MERIT anything with simple promises. We need to go through a refining process . . .

Moroni 10:32

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:20

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Thanks Longview for your comments. I want to understand them further. I am pretty sure I read in the book of Mormon about heaven and hell and it seemed to be presented in a way I related. I don't remember reading about the Celestial, Teresstrial and Telestial parts yet. I have not finished reading the book yet. I wondered if you could tell me what chapter that is in. I can't imagine Hitler recieving such grace with out repentence and faith so I also want to understand this teaching more too please. Where or how would I read more about this. Is this your opinion or is this in the Book of Mormon too? If I am asking to many questions, please don't feel obligated to answer.

Edited May 26, 2012 by followerofemmanuel

[DBMormon]

longview- I agree with the staement of it being a refining process - All who end up in the Celestial Kingdom will have experienced the Mighty Change aka having become sanctified. It is a process and one must have Christ's Grace to enable him to do it.

Also Enduring to the end is crucial and will be shared later on, so please be patient. One piece of the pie each day, otherwise you will be sugared out!!

Zerinus - the parable about lunch is wrong. If your good behavior means you get Ice cream then on some level you merited it or earned it. Yet the scriptures say it is wholly upon the merits, mercy, and grace of God.

The actually being good doesn't get you the ice cream in my theology. The trying or effort does. God is not result based. He looketh on the heart

[zerinus]

Zerinus - the parable about lunch is wrong. If your good behavior means you get Ice cream then on some level you merited it or earned it. Yet the scriptures say it is wholly upon the merits, mercy, and grace of God.

The actually being good doesn't get you the ice cream in my theology. The trying or effort does. God is not result based. He looketh on the heart

The parable is just a parable; it is not meant to spell doctrine precisely. But the scriptures are clear. Mercy is conditional on repentance. There is no getting away from that scriptural fact.

[DBMormon]

JUSTIFICATION & SANCTIFICATION

To be Justified is to be pardoned or found not guilty of one’s sins or transgressions. There are two ways that most of Christianity sees that we can be Justified though there is also a third way mentioned earlier that has been revealed in latter days. 1) – we can keep the law perfectly, which we know is impossible. Paul constantly refers to how according to the law none are perfect no not one. Paul glories in his infirmities as he is living the gospel law of faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, endure to the end rather than the Law of Moses or keeping rules. 2) – we can repent and utilize the Atonement of Christ as to attain his mercy and forgiveness. As Job states, our sins though they be a red as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. 3) – to suffer for our own sins as Christ suffered (D&C19: 15- 18).

Any of these three will justify us but only number two will also assist us in the process of being sanctified or becoming perfect with Christ. Some folks think they can go through the third path and upon completing this suffering, they can enter into the Celestial kingdom having been justified. But they miss the real issue. D&C 88:21 tells us we not only must be justified but that to be Celestial, to have a Celestial Body, to enter the Celestial Glory; one must be Sanctified as well. What is this sanctification that is being spoken of. It is to be spiritually changed. It is the mighty change spoken of by Alma. It is being perfected in Christ, to have ones soul expand, to have ones heart swell. It is to be in a progressing change that ultimately has us having no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually (Mosiah 5:2).

Alma chapter 5 is one of my favorite chapters in the Book of Mormon. The whole first half of the chapter revolves around describing what this mighty change is. In essence it is to have the Countenance of Christ upon us (Alma 5:19). Then in the second half in verse 26 we are asked to make an evaluation of ourselves. Essentially even if we had once felt this mighty change we are to look ourselves in the mirror and see if today we still feel God’s Grace and Mercy, If this mighty change is still active in our life. You see, it is not good enough to have felt the change once long a go when we converted or when we were on our mission or when we turned our life around after hitting rock bottom. What happened then is not important. It is whether the change is going on right now. If we look in the mirror and do not feel this principle active in our life currently then it is time to go back to the beginning and exercise faith and humility and seek God’s grace and mercy and bring this sanctifying power back into our life. This sanctifying enabling power has the ability to make us better than we are. 1st Corinthians 15:10 tells us that a life influenced by grace will cause a change in behavior causing one to better serve God and his children. Brad Wilcox stated in his talk “My Grace is sufficient” that a friend had told him, “A Life impacted by grace will begin to resemble Christ's life”. Grace is not about giving us a free pass, it is about helping us to progress in our becoming like Christ.

So how do we the eternally indebted and always sinning become truly Christlike? How does this Grace work? When we are baptized we enter a covenant with the Savior. This covenant we are taught is a two way promise. We promise to be “willing” or to “try” to take his name upon us and keep his commandments and stand as a witness of Christ at all times (See Mosiah 18 or the sacrament prayer on the bread). God in turn promises us his spirit. In this covenant relationship we join with Christ and become one with him. 2nd Corinthians 12:9 tells us that Christ stated to Paul that not only is his grace sufficient but that Christ's strength is made perfect in our weakness. And Paul concludes here that he has no problem with his infirmities. He is not only talking about his health but his weakness and sins too. Remember, Christ is the physician whose ultimate goal is to heal the spiritually sick. Paul recognized that even though he still had spiritual weakness and was a sinner imself like all of us are, that he would glory in God's grace as it was Grace that saved him not his works. Paul's words are used so often by those outside the church to try to show we are saved by grace alone, but throughout his words, true doctrine is plainly taught. Paul knew works didn't save him but that God's Grace would impact him and change him in such a way as to be put on the path of progression that leads back to Christ and being Christlike.

This covenant relationship is mentioned in Moroni 10:32-33 where we are told that if we come unto Christ we are immediately perfected in Christ. In other words we, even though a sinner, get to borrow Christ's perfection and be imperfect but “Perfected” in him. Then as we are on the path to deny all ungodliness and to love God with all your mind, might, and strength; we receive grace and and began to become sanctified and become “Perfect in Christ. Two things here, One – putting off all ungodliness must be understood as a process, if not we will each find ourselves falling short and continually feeling hopeless and discouraged. Two – Notice that immediately upon coming unto Christ we are perfected in him. Then after going through this process of the refiners fire and denying all ungodliness we eventually at some future moment in the distance of eternity we become Perfect. Perfection is the real goal. It must be done with Christ and his grace, and must be understood in the context of an eternal process and that we should feel the pressure lifted off of us to attain it today, this week, this year. While I feel from Paul's words that he worked hard to serve God and God's children, I do not sense that he felt any pressure from God to be perfect in the here and now. The Grace of God relieved his pressure not added to it. C. S. Lewis wisely remarked, "it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way" (Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 129).

Edited May 27, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

will be up early so I thought I would put tomorrow's up early

Have a great Sabbath Day

[zerinus]

JUSTIFICATION & SANCTIFICATION

<snip>

To be justified means to be absolved from sin; to be sanctified means to be made holy. To Adam the Lord said:

Moses 6:

60 For by the water [baptism] ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Keeping the commandments precedes justification and sanctification. In the D&C the Lord has further revealed:

D&C 88:

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

Also:

D&C 101:

5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.

The Lord chastens people so they might repent. Those who don't cannot be sanctified or justified.

Edited May 27, 2012 by zerinus

[DBMormon]

Zerinus - I appreciate your continued emphasis on repentance. Do you feel I am not including repentance in my understanding of the "doctrine of Christ"?

If anything putting in effort and repenting are the only two things I think can be positively attributed to our part.

But for me both effort and repentance do not involve good works.

Alma 24 :11 makes it clear that repentance really is the "all we can do" =

"And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain"

Edited May 27, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

BONUS SUNDAY - you get an extra chapter in the "Doctrine of Christ"

REPENTANCE

One step we seem to want to skip past is Repentance. Repentance is the act of asking for forgiveness and the giving up of the sin in the first place. Alma 32:13 tells us that he who is humble will repent, and he who repents shall find mercy. All of the principles discussed through this are inseparably connected. We need to see that. We are given Weakness so that we will be Humble. He who is humble will look to Christ and exercise faith and repent. He who has faith and repents will find Mercy and Grace. Over Eternity, Mercy and Grace will Sanctify us and make us Celestial. We can not be Celestial if any one of these is missing from our life. Without Repentance, Mercy will not come into our lives and we will not become the changed person God needs us to be to enter back into his presence. At it's root Repentance is not about punishment or payment but it is about "Change"

-“The repenting sinner must suffer for his sins, but this suffering has a different purpose than punishment or payment. Its purpose is change” (The Lord’s Way [salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1991], p. 223; - Dallin Oaks

Helaman 4:15 lets us see that there are blessings predicated upon repentance. One of them is to prosper. We may want to define what this means as worldly wealth or good health, but it is up to God to decide how this is fulfilled and more times than not is likely prospering in a spiritual increase as that is the only prospering that moves us forward to being like Christ. Alma 42:4 shares with us that this life is just that a time to prepare to meet God, a time to repent and to serve him. While serving him is an outward action towards others; Repentance though perhaps requiring outward actions to show the sincerity, is of itself an inward action. Repentance is introspective. It is seeing in oneself one’s flaws, shortcomings, and imperfections and working with Christ to correct them. It is giving all your sins to know him (Alma 22:18).

Alma 9:13 explains that if we do not keep the commandments and we could logically add “do not repent of those broken commandments” that we shall be cut off from the land. This land or the land that we shall reside in in some future Glory? Remember they are the same. This earth of the here and now, is the future Celestial Kingdom. D&C 19:15 – 18 explains that if we choose not to repent that we will then be called to suffer even as Christ Suffered. We should be forewarned though, this suffering will not sanctify us, it will not change us. We will have paid the debt for our sin but we would be left having not become more Christlike and therefore being left to a lesser glory. Moroni 8:10 helps us see that repentance must precede our being baptized. Repentance again is part of the process of becoming humble. Alma 6:3 links not repenting to pride. Will we let our pride keep us from living with God again? Pride is the opposite of humility and also the biggest factor in slowing down, halting, or even reversing sanctifying spiritual change.

Mosiah 4:10 teaches us a important principle we must understand. There Is more to “believing” that we must repent. In Fact we say there is more to it then just “believing” that we need faith, or “believing” in being humble. We must also do them. Many people know there are things in their life that need repented of. They recognize these unrepented sins will hold them back, they see that repentance is needed just as much as we need food and water to live but they put off the repentance. They will do it later, or perhaps they are willing to suffer as Christ did. They are afraid of the actions others might take on them to help them through the repentance process. Meanwhile they fail to comprehend the great disservice they are doing to themselves as they put off the necessary change they must go through. They are missing out on the mercy, and sanctification that comes through true repentance. They are preventing the spiritual growth that will allow them to be resurrected with a Celestial body and to live with God again and remain in his presence. If we could see things as God does, we would be eager to repent, to put off the natural man, to rid ourselves of our sins. How could any worry we have over repenting in this life have any value superior to that of Living with our Heavenly Father and his son and being heirs with Christ for eternity.

Repent, Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand!!!!

Edited May 27, 2012 by reelmormon

[zerinus]

Zerinus - I appreciate your continued emphasis on repentance. Do you feel I am not including repentance in my understanding of the "doctrine of Christ"?

The emphasis is actually on keeping the commandments. Repentance becomes necessary when we deviate from those commandments. Its purpose is to bring us back into line with the commandments. And it is not "my emphasis" either; it is the Lord's emphasis. I am merely retelling what the Lord has already reiterated numerous times in the scriptures.

If anything putting in effort and repenting are the only two things I think can be positively attributed to our part.

But for me both effort and repentance do not involve good works.

To sin means to break God's commandments. To repent means to stop breaking them, start keeping them. If that is what you mean by "good works," then yes, repentance does involve good works. I, however, prefer to call it what the Lord has called it, which is just keeping God's commandments.

Alma 24 :11 makes it clear that repentance really is the "all we can do" =

"And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins and the many murders which we have committed, and to get God to take them away from our hearts, for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain"

Not sure where you are going with that one. If you are implying that repentance does not involve keeping the commandments, you are seriously mistaken. That is not what those scriptures are saying.

Edited May 27, 2012 by zerinus

[longview]

Thanks Longview for your comments. I want to understand them further. I am pretty sure I read in the book of Mormon about heaven and hell and it seemed to be presented in a way I related. I don't remember reading about the Celestial, Teresstrial and Telestial parts yet. I have not finished reading the book yet. I wondered if you could tell me what chapter that is in. I can't imagine Hitler recieving such grace with out repentence and faith so I also want to understand this teaching more too please. Where or how would I read more about this. Is this your opinion or is this in the Book of Mormon too? If I am asking to many questions, please don't feel obligated to answer.

The main sources for learning about the "three degrees of glory" is in 1 Corinthians 15 and

Doctrine and Covenants 131:1

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

I do not remember any explicit references to this concept in the Book of Mormon. You might want to search the cross references in the Bible Dictionary entry below. It is part of LDS standard works. If you do not have your own, go to http://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng

Degrees of glory. It is apparent that if God rewards everyone according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven as intended for man’s eternal home must include more kingdoms than one. In speaking of man in his resurrected state, Paul tells of glories like the sun, the moon, and the stars (1 Cor. 15:39–41). He also speaks of the “third heaven” (2 Cor. 12:2). Jesus spoke of “many mansions” or kingdoms (John 14:2). Latter-day revelation confirms the teaching of the Bible on these matters and verifies that there are three general categories or glories to which the members of the human family will be assigned in the judgment following their resurrection from the grave. These are known as the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms, of which the sun, moon, and stars are spoken of as being typical (D&C 76; 88:20–32; 131:1–4). In addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin.

As for Hitler, all of us were in the pre-existance [spirit world], which means we are all brothers and sisters. Vast majority will end up in the Telestial Kingdom, the glory of the stars of varying "luminosity". He probably is in the "dim bulb" category.

[DBMormon]

To sin means to break God's commandments. To repent means to stop breaking them, start keeping them. If that is what you mean by "good works," then yes, repentance does involve good works. I, however, prefer to call it what the Lord has called it, which is just keeping God's commandments.

So we are talking semantics. Know that when I say good works, what is meant is being a good hometeacher, obeying the word of wisdom, helping old ladies accross the street, going to all your meetings, visiting the widows and the orphans, good acts of christian service.

I just don't think there is a specified number or percentage of things we must do. That there is no bar.

[zerinus]

So we are talking semantics.

I am not; maybe you are.

Know that when I say good works, what is meant is being a good hometeacher, obeying the word of wisdom, helping old ladies accross the street, going to all your meetings, visiting the widows and the orphans, good acts of christian service.

I just don't think there is a specified number or percentage of things we must do. That there is no bar.

Then you have a very narrow, limited, distorted concept of what it means to keeping the commandments. You are confusing "keeping the commandments" with "doing acts of service". Rendering acts of Christian service is one aspect of keeping the commandments; but not all of it. The "commandments" that we are required to "keep" are those such as is recorded in the Ten Commandments, or in the Sermon on the Mount, and similar passages as recorded in the Bible and modern scriptures of the Church. One of those commandments is to render acts of faithful service in the Church (or indeed outside of the Church). The Lord has outlined those in such passages of scripture as these:

Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

James 1:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 4:

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

D&C 58:

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.

D&C 107:

99 Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence.

100 He that is slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand, and he that learns not his duty and shows himself not approved shall not be counted worthy to stand. Even so. Amen.

And many more passages that could be cited. These are indeed important commandments to keep--as important as any of the others. And they certainly present a challenge. But I don't believe that the Lord would give us these commandments if we were not able to keep them. We do the best we can, and still consider ourselves "unprofitable servants" (Luke 17:10); and we have confidence that the Lord in His goodness will accept our offering in the day of judgement. But let there no mistakes in anyone's mind that the Lord expects us to keep those commandments. You are deluding yourself if you think that you can get away with not keeping those commandments; and the Lord will let you off scot free. When the day of reckoning comes, we all have to give an account of how we have fulfilled our "stewardship" here on earth.

Edited May 27, 2012 by zerinus

[DBMormon]

Then you have a very narrow, limited, distorted concept of what it means to keeping the commandments. You are confusing "keeping the commandments" with "doing acts of service".

No, I am confusing Good Works with acts of service...... again semantics.

To me when we ephasize the actual keeping of commandments we can be motivated by many possible things. I equate Good works with doing Christlike acts of service. I see keeping the commandments as either an inward desire to be obedient or other possible negative reasons

Obedience is a inward trait that expresses itself outwardly, Keeping the commandments is an outward expression that may or may not reflect the inner heart. One can keep the commandments out of pride, for a reward,

One can fail to keep the commandments and still have a heart that is right with God. Nephi broke the commandment "Thou Shalt Not kill" in order to keep another commandment of God. In your world of having to keep all the commandments, Nephi would be in a lose/lose situation. The gospel sometimes forces us to break some commandments in order to keep others. I can not keep all the commandments (me personally, I do not keep them all and will never claim to)..... impossible. By joining the church, I did not "honor my father and mother" and yet I sought a higher law.

The outward actions we take are not black and white but the inward Broken heart and contrite spirit are. The gospel is a inward journey and one in which we are either moving towards God or away. I do not keep all the commandments, and neither did Nephi (shalt not kill), Moses (shalt not kill), Joseph Smith (shalt not lie - polygamy), ect... and yet these three did not seem to see this as sin where repentance was needed.

In order for all of us to grow in faith we have to move past a black and white world where one must keep the commandments perfectly or find himself outside the kingdom. I am called to do what I can (Repent, have faith, keep trying) and God then does what he can (transform our nature and make us like him through his grace) and this occurs over a lifetime and into eternity.

Edited May 27, 2012 by reelmormon

[KevinG]

The commandment is "Thou shall not murder" not "Thou shall not kill". Ponder the difference and rethink your argument.

[zerinus]

No, I am confusing Good Works with acts of service...... again semantics.

To me when we ephasize the actual keeping of commandments we can be motivated by many possible things. I equate Good works with doing Christlike acts of service. I see keeping the commandments as either an inward desire to be obedient or other possible negative reasons

Obedience is a inward trait that expresses itself outwardly, Keeping the commandments is an outward expression that may or may not reflect the inner heart. One can keep the commandments out of pride, for a reward,

One can fail to keep the commandments and still have a heart that is right with God. Nephi broke the commandment "Thou Shalt Not kill" in order to keep another commandment of God. In your world of having to keep all the commandments, Nephi would be in a lose/lose situation. The gospel sometimes forces us to break some commandments in order to keep others. I can not keep all the commandments (me personally, I do not keep them all and will never claim to)..... impossible. By joining the church, I did not "honor my father and mother" and yet I sought a higher law.

The outward actions we take are not black and white but the inward Broken heart and contrite spirit are. The gospel is a inward journey and one in which we are either moving towards God or away. I do not keep all the commandments, and neither did Nephi (shalt not kill), Moses (shalt not kill), Joseph Smith (shalt not lie - polygamy), ect... and yet these three did not seem to see this as sin where repentance was needed.

In order for all of us to grow in faith we have to move past a black and white world where one must keep the commandments perfectly or find himself outside the kingdom. I am called to do what I can (Repent, have faith, keep trying) and God then does what he can (transform our nature and make us like him through his grace) and this occurs over a lifetime and into eternity.

That is a distraction and a red herring. If somebody is keeping the Commandments, then he is keeping the commandments, and it is not anybody's business to sit in judgements on his "motives" for doing so. That is between him and his God. When I go for a temple recommend interview with my bishop, he does not ask questions about my "motives" for keeping the commandments; but whether I am in fact keeping them or not. When he asks me if I am keeping the Word of Wisdom for example, or paying my tithing, and I say yes, that is all he is interested in. He doesn't ask me what are my "motives" for keeping the Word of Wisdom, or paying my tithing. So the question you are raising is basically a non-issue. If somebody is keeping the commandments "not to kill, steal, commit adultery, bear false witness etc.," then he is indeed keeping the commandments, regardless of what his "motives" might be, and the law can have no hold upon him. What is in his heart is between him and his God. It is not our business to probe into what is in his heart.

Edited May 29, 2012 by zerinus