What's most important in the Grand Scheme: Behavior, or Belief?

[Meerkat]

27 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Adam and Eve became gods with their disobedience or just became like God?

Thanks,
Jim

Actually, I believe Adam and Eve-- particularly Eve, played a pivotal role in the Plan of Salvation.  I think God gave them two competing commandments:  Don't eat the fruit, and multiply and replenish the earth.  I'm not real clear on the mechanics of how it all worked, or if I'm right on the multiply and replenish the earth as being the one they were to obey.  It may have been obedience only, and they disobeyed.  They must have had some sense of right and wrong in order to disobey.  That's another topic though.  

But I don't think we would have been here, had Eve not seen the importance of disobeying the one commandment in order to obey the other.  I'm not saying that's doctrine.  That's my opinion.  Mormons believe that Adam and Eve paved the way for us, and that our lives are similar to theirs, in a way.   Part of our purpose is to learn the difference between good and evil, and to choose the good.  I believe God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and prepared a Savior from before the foundations of the world.  It wasn't an afterthought because Adam and Eve had made a mistake.  It was God's design.

Now here we are, children of a Heavenly Father who loves us and wants us to learn of Him, and (as mentioned in 1 John 3:1-3) God wants us to become like Him in our character and many other attributes, such as a glorified and perfected resurrected body. I don't know how I would have learned of my deep need for the Savior, had I not been subject to sin with it's attendant guilt and sorrow.  It was only through that experience, and learning that there was a way out of the guilt and pain,  that I was able to embrace Jesus Christ as my Savior who took it all upon Himself when I repented.  My life changed.  I will be forever grateful (too weak of a word) to Him, and to Adam and Eve for the part they are playing in my eternal life.

I don't have an answer to your question here regarding Adam and Eve's state of godhood.  I am sure there is much speculation about that.  I know there was in Brigham Young's time.  But for me, I don't pay any attention to it because I am just grateful to be forgiven.  And I think Adam and Eve felt the same way.  Here is an interesting insight from the Book of Moses, Chapter 5:

9"And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters."

I love them for what they have done for me.  And again, I particularly honor Eve for persuading Adam to partake so I could have this wonderful life to learn about God and heavenly things.

[Meerkat]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

I'm not LDS. I was just pointing to some church teaching manual. Personally, I believe that the purpose in life
is not to want to become a god but rather to give glory to the one and only God. As the 1997 Gospel Principles
points out, the spirit children of exalted beings will have the same relationship that they (the exalted beings)
have with their Heavenly Parents. I don't want any of my future children to worship me because worship only
belongs to the one and only God (who has always been God).

Thanks,
Jim

I have no interest in becoming a god either.  I want to express my gratitude to Him with every ounce of my life.  I believe that is typical of many, if not most Mormons.  But IF God has other plans for me, and the real purpose of life is to teach and train a society of virtuous gods (whatever that may mean,) who will help with the Creation expanding out into the entire universe, I will do what He wants me to do to the best of my ability.  I believe I would direct worship from any future children to be given where it is due, as Jesus said "to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."  What happens after this life is highly speculative by anyone, except those (such as John the Beloved, Daniel, Moses and perhaps a few others) to whom God has revealed it.  In the mean time, I have the wonderful fruits of my faith to enjoy, and the joy of my Savior in my heart and life.  I can't find anything to disagree with in your comment, theplains.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Meerkat

[Rain]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

I'm not LDS. I was just pointing to some church teaching manual. Personally, I believe that the purpose in life
is not to want to become a god but rather to give glory to the one and only God. As the 1997 Gospel Principles
points out, the spirit children of exalted beings will have the same relationship that they (the exalted beings)
have with their Heavenly Parents. I don't want any of my future children to worship me because worship only
belongs to the one and only God (who has always been God).

Thanks,
Jim

I knew you were not LDS so it confused me that you were using an LDS source to answer the question of what you felt the purpose of life was. That's why I wanted to know if it was what you felt or if you thought it is what we believe.

[Meerkat]

On 2/22/2018 at 9:28 AM, hope_for_things said:

I consider myself agnostic lately, and that means I don't have confidence that I can know whether there is a God, but it also means that I don't have confidence that I know there is an underlying purpose of life in some essential cosmic sense.   

However, I have values and aspirations and I personally find meaning in the journey of doing and striving for good.  I seek to show love and connect with others.  I want to promote life and growth and beauty and truth.  I find that there are metaphors within religious traditions that can aid in these perspectives and that give me context and narrative to explain how to experience life in meaningful ways. 

Your ultimate question about whether there is something we came here to learn or not is irrelevant to me.  We can choose to perceive value from our life experiences and I think a measure of that value comes from how we engage with and experience life.  If there ends up being a judgement or evaluation of how we lived at some point in the future, I can't imagine a universal criteria for judgment.  I think all judgment must be contextual and relative to individual circumstances and setting. 

I can't imagine a scenario where a person's beliefs are somehow an important factor in determining someone's worth.  I'm not sure we can control what we believe at all, so it seems silly to me that there would be some kind of measurement is placed on what a person believes. 

Your description of values in paragraph 2 are similar to the values that have grown out of my religious experience.  I would like to think that, were I not a religious person, I would respond to my conscience and live by those values.

I was raised in a loving home with strong values.  Not everyone is so fortunate.  A person growing up in the projects with a single parent working two or three jobs, continually wrung out would be at a disadvantage.  The judge you refer to in paragraph three would need to be able to take into account those differences.  The person in the projects, exposed to gang activity, drugs and domestic violence may be judged more valiant than the one from a strong family who did not have to overcome those influences with his strength of character.  That's why I believe Christ, who knows each of us perfectly, would be such a judge.

Part of paragraph 4 refers back to the choices we make in the last example.  Hopefully, our conscience could be our guide and we would gravitate to virtuous living rather than giving in to any evil impulse.  I believe there is always a choice available.

My Dad was a very quiet man.  We never had deep conversations.  He wasn't big on giving advice.  But He was honest to a fault.  He was charitable.  He loved our family and was charitable to all.  He was my compass.  He took my brothers and me to the Lutheran Church on Sundays and Luther League on Wednesdays.  But in all those years, he never testified of Christ.  He said he didn't know if there was a God on high.   I don't recall him ever confessing Christ as Savior.  My good Baptist neighbor said he's going to Hell because he didn't confess Christ.  His example was everything I would want from any Christian.  He is long gone.  But his example, unknown to him, was the finest example of the kind of person I want to be.  He was not a believer.  I believe the Savior is a faithful judge, and Dad will be  judged accordingly.  Thank you for your  points. Very thought provoking.

[Jeanne]

8 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Your description of values in paragraph 2 are similar to the values that have grown out of my religious experience.  I would like to think that, were I not a religious person, I would respond to my conscience and live by those values.

I was raised in a loving home with strong values.  Not everyone is so fortunate.  A person growing up in the projects with a single parent working two or three jobs, continually wrung out would be at a disadvantage.  The judge you refer to in paragraph three would need to be able to take into account those differences.  The person in the projects, exposed to gang activity, drugs and domestic violence may be judged more valiant than the one from a strong family who did not have to overcome those influences with his strength of character.  That's why I believe Christ, who knows each of us perfectly, would be such a judge.

Part of paragraph 4 refers back to the choices we make in the last example.  Hopefully, our conscience could be our guide and we would gravitate to virtuous living rather than giving in to any evil impulse.  I believe there is always a choice available.

My Dad was a very quiet man.  We never had deep conversations.  He wasn't big on giving advice.  But He was honest to a fault.  He was charitable.  He loved our family and was charitable to all.  He was my compass.  He took my brothers and me to the Lutheran Church on Sundays and Luther League on Wednesdays.  But in all those years, he never testified of Christ.  He said he didn't know if there was a God on high.   I don't recall him ever confessing Christ as Savior.  My good Baptist neighbor said he's going to Hell because he didn't confess Christ.  His example was everything I would want from any Christian.  He is long gone.  But his example, unknown to him, was the finest example of the kind of person I want to be.  He was not a believer.  I believe the Savior is a faithful judge, and Dad will be  judged accordingly.  Thank you for your  points. Very thought provoking.

I love your Dad.

[pogi]

On 2/22/2018 at 10:28 AM, hope_for_things said:

I can't imagine a scenario where a person's beliefs are somehow an important factor in determining someone's worth. 

Nothing we do or believe can affect our worth.  The worth of all souls is great in the sight of God.  It is important to differentiate between "worth" and "value" however.  A lost treasure on the bottom of the ocean, for example, may be of great worth, but it is of little value until it is found.  So it is with our souls.  We are of great worth, even when lost, but become of great value when we are found.  Our value as servants of God is greatly impacted by what we do and believe.  Would you be of much value to an employer if you didn't believe in his vision?

On 2/22/2018 at 10:28 AM, hope_for_things said:

I'm not sure we can control what we believe at all, so it seems silly to me that there would be some kind of measurement is placed on what a person believes. 

If we have no control over what we believe, then we have no control over what we do.  All of our actions stem from our beliefs.  There is nothing that you do that is not driven by belief in some unseen or desired outcome.  We act because we believe.  We can choose to believe and follow the light within, or we can choose to believe and follow whatever is presented as contrary to it.  Without the ability to direct our beliefs, agency cannot exist. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by pogi

[hope_for_things]

On 2/24/2018 at 1:16 AM, Meerkat said:

Your description of values in paragraph 2 are similar to the values that have grown out of my religious experience.  I would like to think that, were I not a religious person, I would respond to my conscience and live by those values.

I was raised in a loving home with strong values.  Not everyone is so fortunate.  A person growing up in the projects with a single parent working two or three jobs, continually wrung out would be at a disadvantage.  The judge you refer to in paragraph three would need to be able to take into account those differences.  The person in the projects, exposed to gang activity, drugs and domestic violence may be judged more valiant than the one from a strong family who did not have to overcome those influences with his strength of character.  That's why I believe Christ, who knows each of us perfectly, would be such a judge.

Part of paragraph 4 refers back to the choices we make in the last example.  Hopefully, our conscience could be our guide and we would gravitate to virtuous living rather than giving in to any evil impulse.  I believe there is always a choice available.

My Dad was a very quiet man.  We never had deep conversations.  He wasn't big on giving advice.  But He was honest to a fault.  He was charitable.  He loved our family and was charitable to all.  He was my compass.  He took my brothers and me to the Lutheran Church on Sundays and Luther League on Wednesdays.  But in all those years, he never testified of Christ.  He said he didn't know if there was a God on high.   I don't recall him ever confessing Christ as Savior.  My good Baptist neighbor said he's going to Hell because he didn't confess Christ.  His example was everything I would want from any Christian.  He is long gone.  But his example, unknown to him, was the finest example of the kind of person I want to be.  He was not a believer.  I believe the Savior is a faithful judge, and Dad will be  judged accordingly.  Thank you for your  points. Very thought provoking.

Thanks for your response here.  I think we have much in common, and I'm confident that you would have good values outside of a religious world view.  I don't consider my current world view non-religious personally.  I just don't neatly fit into categories that exist, but does anyone really fit into those categories anyway?  When you start to explore people deeper than just a surface exploration, you typically find many things in common around our shared humanity that can bring us together.  Thanks again

[hope_for_things]

On 2/24/2018 at 1:01 PM, pogi said:

Nothing we do or believe can affect our worth.  The worth of all souls is great in the sight of God.  It is important to differentiate between "worth" and "value" however.  A lost treasure on the bottom of the ocean, for example, may be of great worth, but it is of little value until it is found.  So it is with our souls.  We are of great worth, even when lost, but become of great value when we are found.  Our value as servants of God is greatly impacted by what we do and believe.  Would you be of much value to an employer if you didn't believe in his vision?

The way you are using value here is essentially the same as how I was using worth.  It sounds like your point about worth in this context is about potential, and if someone or something has great potential, but that potential is not actively being utilized, then it won't have practical value until that potential is put into action.  I agree with that piece.  

But I disagree that an employee needs to believe in the vision of the employer in order to be of value.  To extend that analogy, many employees don't understand or comprehend the vision of the employer.  This could be because of a lack of perspective from that employee, they don't see the big picture, they don't have the experience or all the information, and they may even lack the capacity for this kind of vision.  Yet that same employee can be of great value if they are capable and effective in their individual job.  Or perhaps the employee has a different vision that in some way is different, but that this difference actually helps the company.  For example you could have an employer that isn't that interested in following the rules of the game, so doesn't put the resources into making sure they follow governmental or accounting regulations, but you have an employee in those departments that takes a personal pride in making sure they follow those rules, their perspective is different, and because of this difference they make sure to correct for the lack of resources and emphasis of the employer because they have personal pride and responsibility in the job they do.  This surely would help the company in ways that the employer can't comprehend.  

On 2/24/2018 at 1:01 PM, pogi said:

If we have no control over what we believe, then we have no control over what we do.  All of our actions stem from our beliefs.  There is nothing that you do that is not driven by belief in some unseen or desired outcome.  We act because we believe.  We can choose to believe and follow the light within, or we can choose to believe and follow whatever is presented as contrary to it.  Without the ability to direct our beliefs, agency cannot exist. 

I'm not willing to go so far as to say we have "no control", that is why I said I'm not sure we have control and I would expound on this that if we do have some measure of control I'm not sure how much control we have.  I'm somewhat on the fence on the subject of free will these days, which really complicates this idea of agency.  I like the idea of agency, I'm just not sure how much we really have when it comes down to it.  Environmental and genetic factors all come into play.  Its a very fascinating topic, and one I'm personally not comfortable answering with certainty.  

There definitely is a relationship between belief and action.  I don't think that we direct these beliefs though.  As a thought experiment, will you please direct your beliefs to Scientology tomorrow.  Just for one day as an experiment.  You have to find a local Scientology establishment, and you have to receive an audit, and that you should direct your beliefs to believing everything that is experienced in that audit, that the auditor using an e-meter has some level of access to your memories from other distant lifetimes and what you experience during that audit, will accurately reflect things that happened to you in another life.  

If you actually have control over your beliefs, you could choose to believe the above Scientology experiment.  Could you likewise start believing that you can control the forces of gravity, or that you could drink acid and not be negatively effected?  What other beliefs can a person choose to believe?  How can we truly direct our beliefs?  

[Nofear]

A quote of potential relevance to the original post:

"When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief." ( History of the Church, 6:477; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 16, 1844)

[pogi]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not willing to go so far as to say we have "no control", that is why I said I'm not sure we have control and I would expound on this that if we do have some measure of control I'm not sure how much control we have.  I'm somewhat on the fence on the subject of free will these days, which really complicates this idea of agency.  I like the idea of agency, I'm just not sure how much we really have when it comes down to it.  Environmental and genetic factors all come into play.  Its a very fascinating topic, and one I'm personally not comfortable answering with certainty.  

There definitely is a relationship between belief and action.  I don't think that we direct these beliefs though.  As a thought experiment, will you please direct your beliefs to Scientology tomorrow.  Just for one day as an experiment.  You have to find a local Scientology establishment, and you have to receive an audit, and that you should direct your beliefs to believing everything that is experienced in that audit, that the auditor using an e-meter has some level of access to your memories from other distant lifetimes and what you experience during that audit, will accurately reflect things that happened to you in another life.  

If you actually have control over your beliefs, you could choose to believe the above Scientology experiment.  Could you likewise start believing that you can control the forces of gravity, or that you could drink acid and not be negatively effected?  What other beliefs can a person choose to believe?  How can we truly direct our beliefs?  

It sounds like you are open to the possibility that we might have some control over our beliefs.  I am confused however, why you go on to say "I don't think we direct these beliefs though."  If you truly believe that we cannot direct our beliefs, then how can you say that you are open to the possibility that we might have some control over them?

Let me ask you a few questions to help direct your beliefs  . Do you take any accountability for your beliefs and actions?  Do you hold other people accountable for any of their beliefs and actions in life?  If so, then you DO believe that we can direct our beliefs, and thus our actions to some degree.  Otherwise there can be no accountability. 

It needs to be pointed out that there are two different views regarding this issue.  The view that you are questioning in your thought experiment is called extreme doxastic voluntarism, which is just a fancy way of saying that humans can choose to believe anything they want, any time.  This view is false.  Your thought experiment is a good example as to why.  Limited doxastic voluntarism, suggests that only SOME of our beliefs are under our voluntary control.  There is also a distinction between direct and indirect doxastic voluntarism.  Indirect suggests that we can take and direct intermediary steps needed to change beliefs.  I personally accept the limited and also indirect doxastic voluntarism.  

Let's say a married believing Christian man is tempted to cheat on his wife.  Does that person have the ability to choose what he will believe in that scenario and thus choose his future actions?  Or is he predetermined and unaccountable?

Edited February 26, 2018 by pogi

[Meerkat]

On 2/24/2018 at 9:12 AM, Jeanne said:

I love your Dad.

Thank you Jeanne!  He is a man worthy of honor and love.  Your comment is much appreciated.

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The way you are using value here is essentially the same as how I was using worth.  It sounds like your point about worth in this context is about potential, and if someone or something has great potential, but that potential is not actively being utilized, then it won't have practical value until that potential is put into action.  I agree with that piece.  

But I disagree that an employee needs to believe in the vision of the employer in order to be of value.  To extend that analogy, many employees don't understand or comprehend the vision of the employer.  This could be because of a lack of perspective from that employee, they don't see the big picture, they don't have the experience or all the information, and they may even lack the capacity for this kind of vision.  Yet that same employee can be of great value if they are capable and effective in their individual job.  Or perhaps the employee has a different vision that in some way is different, but that this difference actually helps the company.  For example you could have an employer that isn't that interested in following the rules of the game, so doesn't put the resources into making sure they follow governmental or accounting regulations, but you have an employee in those departments that takes a personal pride in making sure they follow those rules, their perspective is different, and because of this difference they make sure to correct for the lack of resources and emphasis of the employer because they have personal pride and responsibility in the job they do.  This surely would help the company in ways that the employer can't comprehend.  

I'm not willing to go so far as to say we have "no control", that is why I said I'm not sure we have control and I would expound on this that if we do have some measure of control I'm not sure how much control we have.  I'm somewhat on the fence on the subject of free will these days, which really complicates this idea of agency.  I like the idea of agency, I'm just not sure how much we really have when it comes down to it.  Environmental and genetic factors all come into play.  Its a very fascinating topic, and one I'm personally not comfortable answering with certainty.  

There definitely is a relationship between belief and action.  I don't think that we direct these beliefs though.  As a thought experiment, will you please direct your beliefs to Scientology tomorrow.  Just for one day as an experiment.  You have to find a local Scientology establishment, and you have to receive an audit, and that you should direct your beliefs to believing everything that is experienced in that audit, that the auditor using an e-meter has some level of access to your memories from other distant lifetimes and what you experience during that audit, will accurately reflect things that happened to you in another life.  

If you actually have control over your beliefs, you could choose to believe the above Scientology experiment.  Could you likewise start believing that you can control the forces of gravity, or that you could drink acid and not be negatively effected?  What other beliefs can a person choose to believe?  How can we truly direct our beliefs?  

I like most all of Pogi's posts.  But in the comtext if my Dad, he lived as if he believed, and was a happy man.  But he did not know.  It was one of those "Lord, I WANT to believe.  Help thou mine unbelief" situations.  So, based on watching him, I disagree that we can always control our beliefs.  I worked hard for my faith.  Working for it put the odds in my favor, and persistent fervent prayer also helped.  I believe God had a responsibility to help me with my beliefs, based on Matthew 7:7-8 and Moroni 10:3-5.  But it still feels like a miraculous gift to know what I know.  In the end, I believe our behavior will be the deciding factor.

[pogi]

23 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I like most all of Pogi's posts.  But in the comtext if my Dad, he lived as if he believed, and was a happy man.  But he did not know.  It was one of those "Lord, I WANT to believe.  Help thou mine unbelief" situations.  So, based on watching him, I disagree that we can always control our beliefs.  I worked hard for my faith.  Working for it put the odds in my favor, and persistent fervent prayer also helped.  I believe God had a responsibility to help me with my beliefs, based on Matthew 7:7-8 and Moroni 10:3-5.  But it still feels like a miraculous gift to know what I know.  In the end, I believe our behavior will be the deciding factor.

What you are describing is indirect and limited doxastic voluntarism. I too agree with that.  That is what I am supporting in my response above.  I agree that we cannot control all of our beliefs.  That is called direct doxastic voluntarism, and is simply not true.  Indirect and limited doxastic voluntarism, on the other hand, suggests that we can take steps to guide at least some of our beliefs.  As you put it, "I worked hard for my faith" - that is a perfect example of this.  It is not chance that you came to this faith (belief).  It was not predetermined as Calvinists believe, rather, you used your agency to direct your beliefs.  The fact is, your dad did believe.  This is evidenced by his works.  One cannot act in righteousness without believing in it.  He might have simply called it a different name, but what he believed in was light and truth, otherwise he could not have acted in light and truth.  

[Meerkat]

On 2/23/2018 at 1:22 PM, theplains said:

Do you believe Adam and Eve became gods with their disobedience or just became like God?

Thanks,
Jim

Interesting the way you framed the question.  In my opinion, it was their disobedience that set in motion consequences (cast out of the Garden, etc.) that helped them see their need for a Savior to get them out of their predicament.  Their experience with disobedience, in my opinion, helped them understand the desirability and even joy of obedience.  Learning obedience throughout their lives, they became better prepared to live where God lives and through eons, become like Him-- glorified, perfected, sinless.  That's my two cents.

[Bernard Gui]

We have yet to examine the role covenants and ordinances play in our eternal destiny. Perhaps that is for another discussion, but they are part of the mix. We set our feet on the path by making covenants and receiving ordinances. And then......

Quote

2 Nephi 30:19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.

The emphasis on pressing forward and enduring to the end seems to put a thumb on the side of behavior.

In his final testimony, Moroni exhorts us to deny ourselves of wickedness and ties our efforts to the grace of Christ....that other component over which we have no control.....and the covenant God has made with us.

Quote

Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

In the end, all will bow the knee and confess Jesus is the Christ, not out of fear but love. To obtain that pure love of Christ should be our quest.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The emphasis on pressing forward and enduring to the end seems to put a thumb on the side of behavior.

The emphasis in not only on endurance of behavior, but in maintaining endurance of belief, "feasting upon the words of Christ", and maintaining a "perfect brightness of hope" etc. 

Endurance of behavior is impossible without endurance of belief.  If we nourish our belief, our behavior will endure as an indirect and natural consequence of belief.  Behavior flows from our core beliefs - "Above all else, guard your heart [belief], for everything you do [behavior] flows from it" (Proverbs 4:23).    

Behavior can be superficial, as evidenced in the scriptures with the scribes and pharisees with their whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones.  They focused more on behavior to the neglect of their heart and core beliefs.  Had they nourished their heart in the word over behavior, they would have been much better off.  This, to me, puts the thumb on the side of belief, which we need to guard "above all else".  That's my take anyway. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The emphasis in not only on endurance of behavior, but in maintaining endurance of belief, "feasting upon the words of Christ", and maintaining a "perfect brightness of hope" etc. 

Endurance of behavior is impossible without endurance of belief.  If we nourish our belief, our behavior will endure as an indirect and natural consequence of belief.  Behavior flows from our core beliefs - "Above all else, guard your heart [belief], for everything you do [behavior] flows from it" (Proverbs 4:23).    

Behavior can be superficial, as evidenced in the scriptures with the scribes and pharisees with their whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones.  They focused more on behavior to the neglect of their heart and core beliefs.  Had they nourished their heart in the word over behavior, they would have been much better off.  This, to me, puts the thumb on the side of belief, which we need to guard "above all else".  That's my take anyway. 

Isn’t the converse also true...the endurance of belief [if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief] is impossible without the endurance of behavior? [And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root].

As James put it, “Show me your faith [belief] without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds [behavior].” It was his position that belief without behavior is useless. They are mutually dependent. Continually nourishing the heart and core beliefs (feasting on the good word) is a behavior. As Alma said, without constant attention, the plant dies. With consistent attention and work, it produces fruit.

Quote

Alma 32:42 And because of your diligence [behavior] and your faith [belief] and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Isn’t the converse also true...the endurance of belief [if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief] is impossible without the endurance of behavior? [And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root].

As James put it, “Show me your faith [belief] without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds [behavior].” It was his position that belief without behavior is useless. They are mutually dependent. Continually nourishing the heart and core beliefs (feasting on the good word) is a behavior. As Alma said, without constant attention, the plant dies. With consistent attention and work, it produces fruit.

 

It is true that faith (belief) requires the endurance of nourishing behaviors and effort in works.  But how can one exert the work of nourishment if he does not first believe that it will yield fuit?  He simply wont continue in the work of nourishment if he does not believe it is good.  James was not saying that belief without behavior is useless, but that our belief is manifested by our behavior; or in other words, "everything we do, flows from the heart."  "Show me your faith without deeds...you can't...it doesn't exist."   That is what he was saying.  He was simply saying what I stated in my last post that works always flow from belief (faith). 

This is supported by Joseph Smith in the lectures on faith:

Quote

 

Lecture First:

Faith being the first principle in revealed religion, and the foundation of all righteousness [the foundation of works], necessarily claims the first place in a course of lectures which are designed to unfold to the understanding the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

10) If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action, in them; that without it, both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.

12) And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual; for the Savior has said, and that truly, that he that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved. (Mark 16:16)

 

Is it enough to just believe?  According to the scriptures, yes!  How can that be if we know that works are also required?  Because true belief and faith cannot lead to anything but righteous works.  We become what we believe because everything we do flows from the heart.  If our works are unrighteous, then we must evaluate our heart, our deep core beliefs - that is where the root core issues and problems will be.  I have found this to be true and extremely helpful in the work of addiction recovery. 

Edited February 28, 2018 by pogi

[Tacenda]

I recently moved to a new ward, my old ward didn't give a darn when I went inactive for over a year, not a word. Poor poor me...

I just had our records sent to this new ward, because I seriously didn't want my records in my old ward any longer than they have to be. I probably could have just gone for a while without my new ward getting them and everything would be fine. But decided I would try out the new ward and see how I liked going. I am pretty lonesome and wouldn't mind meeting some new people. 

Wish me luck, haha. Kind of scared. My husband and I have only attended Sacrament, he didn't want to stay after. So maybe this week I'll be corralled in now that the ward clerk and I have spoken and he wants to introduce me to the RS president. 

I am in a little bit of panic mode over this, and worried that my husband isn't going to be happy. He wanted to fly under the radar for awhile. I thought of alternating between the Alpine church in Layton and my LDS ward. But when I watch videos of their style of worshipping I'm so not use to it. 

I am more a "behavior" believer of the LDS church at this time. 

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I recently moved to a new ward, my old ward didn't give a darn when I went inactive for over a year, not a word. Poor poor me...

I just had our records sent to this new ward, because I seriously didn't want my records in my old ward any longer than they have to be. I probably could have just gone for a while without my new ward getting them and everything would be fine. But decided I would try out the new ward and see how I liked going. I am pretty lonesome and wouldn't mind meeting some new people. 

Wish me luck, haha. Kind of scared. My husband and I have only attended Sacrament, he didn't want to stay after. So maybe this week I'll be corralled in now that the ward clerk and I have spoken and he wants to introduce me to the RS president. 

I am in a little bit of panic mode over this, and worried that my husband isn't going to be happy. He wanted to fly under the radar for awhile. I thought of alternating between the Alpine church in Layton and my LDS ward. But when I watch videos of their style of worshipping I'm so not use to it. 

I am more a "behavior" believer of the LDS church at this time. 

Wishing you many good things Tacenda in your new ward.  Perhaps they will reach out and can resolve or at least have loving hearts to hear your needs.  You won't know until you try!!  Your husband is on his own journey.  I wish both of you much success on your paths.  Patience with each other is key.  Hugs..Jeanne

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Wishing you many good things Tacenda in your new ward.  Perhaps they will reach out and can resolve or at least have loving hearts to hear your needs.  You won't know until you try!!  Your husband is on his own journey.  I wish both of you much success on your paths.  Patience with each other is key.  Hugs..Jeanne

Turns out he isn't mad, whew!! Thanks Jeanne!!

Edited March 1, 2018 by Tacenda

[Meerkat]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I recently moved to a new ward, my old ward didn't give a darn when I went inactive for over a year, not a word. Poor poor me...

I just had our records sent to this new ward, because I seriously didn't want my records in my old ward any longer than they have to be. I probably could have just gone for a while without my new ward getting them and everything would be fine. But decided I would try out the new ward and see how I liked going. I am pretty lonesome and wouldn't mind meeting some new people. 

Wish me luck, haha. Kind of scared. My husband and I have only attended Sacrament, he didn't want to stay after. So maybe this week I'll be corralled in now that the ward clerk and I have spoken and he wants to introduce me to the RS president. 

I am in a little bit of panic mode over this, and worried that my husband isn't going to be happy. He wanted to fly under the radar for awhile. I thought of alternating between the Alpine church in Layton and my LDS ward. But when I watch videos of their style of worshipping I'm so not use to it. 

I am more a "behavior" believer of the LDS church at this time. 

Thank you Tacenda.  I loved your post!

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Turns out he isn't mad, whew!! Thanks Jeanne!!

Who could be mad at you?????

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 2/22/2018 at 3:00 PM, Meerkat said:

I'm interested to hear what everyone believes and why they believe it.

I believe what I believe because it grows directly out of what I've experienced as I have acted (behaviour).

[Meerkat]

On 2/22/2018 at 7:57 PM, strappinglad said:

What if, like multitudes on the earth ,we  believe that to please our god we must sacrifice our children on a red hot altar , or thrown virgins into a volcano , or kill a man and spread his blood over the land to increase its fertility? What if for generations there is no recognition of the true God of the universe and the children are raised to hate their neighbors? What if , because of the " traditions of the fathers " , actions are guided by rules that God abhors ? On what is the judgment to be based, belief or actions ?

I believe they fall into the catwgory of "Where there is no law, there is no punishment."

You do have this scripture in Rev. 20:12 which is ominous: "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

But you also have Romans 5:13, which states: "13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."  That seems to be a get out of jail free card.  But there is a catch.  Since everyone will be judged on a level playing field, what provision has God made to create fairness in the process of judging each person fairly? 

Two scriptures frequently cited by LDS are 1 Peter 2:18-20 "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
            19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
            20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." 

The 2nd citation is 1 Peter 4:6 "6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Regardless of who we are, I believe God will be merciful and just-- even to bad actors who had no opportinity to hear the Good News while in this life.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Meerkat