Doctrine Of Christ

[zerinus]

One can fail to keep the commandments and still have a heart that is right with God. Nephi broke the commandment "Thou Shalt Not kill" in order to keep another commandment of God. In your world of having to keep all the commandments, Nephi would be in a lose/lose situation. . . .

That is another false dichotomy and distraction. The commandment of the Lord to Nephi at that time was to kill Laban, which he obeyed faithfully. There was no "conflicting commandments".

[DBMormon]

Works

So what is the purpose and value of Works within the plan of salvation.

Now while I seem to be writing off our works at times, I implore this is not the case. James says several times that Faith without Works is dead and that Rather than showing your faith without works it is better to show faith by one’s works. Paul was adamant that works not be used to boast of one’s “earning” salvation, but we certainly can understand the value of works being an outward expression of one’s inner commitment to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words if one loves the Savior and truly wants to follow him his actions will change as his heart does. Faith without works to follow it, shows that perhaps there really isn’t a living faith there to begin with.

Now we must be careful, as God judges and determines individually with each of us what amount of progress spiritually is real and valid and how that real faith might express itself. I know members who on outward appearance are the least active members of the ward, they struggle in sin, and they seem to be stuck in the mud in regards to progress. Yet as Bishop I have had the spirit bear sweet witness that these specific individuals were saved by grace. I have worked with other members who seem to be doing everything right and yet the spirit of discernment indicated that their living testimony of Christ was on unsafe ground. Again it is up to God to judge that final judgment and for each of us to be self aware of where we are at. But Elder Hallstrom recently taught in a Conference talk that one can be active in the church without being active in the gospel. Alma asked the people of Zarahemla if at one time in their life they had felt to sing the song of redeeming love, and if they did, do they still feel so now(Alma 5:26)?

We each must be introspective on a regular basis. We should examine our lives and see if God is still adding grace for grace in our life. We can better understand James sermon within this paradigm. We can see that while many will claim to have faith but do nothing with it, it is those whose faith and love of God drives them to service in his name whose faith is real in living within them. In other words those who have drunk of the Living Water are more prone to be good home and visiting teachers, pay a full tithing, and magnify callings. They are more likely to serve their neighbor, give generous fast offerings, and love others with Christlike love. The works are not the means to Salvation's end, but they do evidence the saving grace of Christ and active faith within ourselves. Moroni 7:15-16 explains that the way to judge is to recognize whatever brings us closer to Christ is of God and what ever takes us away from Christ is of the Devil. The Savior himself was the ultimate worker of righteousness and how can emulating his life of service and sacrifice be a bad thing. Moroni 10:32-33 again reminds us that as we go through the process of putting off all ungodliness we shall move forward in the sanctification process and become Perfect in Christ.

Edited May 29, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

Enduring to the End

As Alma pointed out we need to be continually asking ourselves if we are currently in a state of grace. If we feel the redeeming love of Christ. Are we still pointed towards him and heading in the direction of God and his son. Some may wonder why Salvation can't be a specific moment or think after that saving experience that nothing more is required. Some feel a simple confession with their lips and they are saved. Some in the church consider it good enough to have felt the added spiritual strength received from grace and do not look to keep that with them to nourish it. Alma chapter 32 plainly teaches us about how we are to grow our faith. How we need to progress from fruit bearing truth to fruit bearing truth growing in faith and I would add grace. The gospel of John 1:16, D&C 93:12-13, and Helaman 12:24 all teach Grace for Grace or Grace added to Grace as we progress towards the Son of God. But if we are not careful we can fall from Grace as well. Just as it can be added upon it can be removed portion by portion as well.

D&C 20:32 warns us of living in such a way as to fall from grace. If we are to be raised in a Celestial Glory, with Celestial Body, found worthy to be joint heirs with Christ, then we will need to set our hearts continually upon the Savior and the pure doctrine of Christ. Remember Faith is a continual process, Repentance is a continual process, Baptism is renewed each week, and We must daily live worthy of the holy spirit. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are things that must be a continuing part of our lives by nature. In Lehi's vision there were many who made it to the fruit, they had even partaken of it; then turning towards the great and spacious building, they were ashamed and went into forbidden paths and were lost (1^st Nephi 8:28).

[DBMormon]

I was using an older copy of this written down Doctrine of Christ so here should be a better description of the Law of the gospel section.

While prophets warn us of trying to earn Salvation by the keeping the laws and commandments perfectly, we certainly should try to choose the right and set these standards as a goal. Once we see that we can not be saved by the Law, we then need to point ourselves back towards Christ and ask him and the Father what it is that saves us. Once we realize that what saves us is Christ's atonement and our utilizing it by uniting with Christ in trying with all our might, mind, and strength to become like him

The Third Article of Faith says, “Through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel”. One might pick the word obedience out of the statement and begin to dwell too heavily on it. It is not obedience for the sake of Obedience. It is obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel. Second it is through the atonement of Christ we are saved. “Through” implies it is the vehicle or mode by which we get, from trying to keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel, to Exaltation with Heavenly Father. The atonement provides the verb or “action” in the process. So what are these laws and ordinances we need to obey?

The answer is found in the very next article of faith. “The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are: first,Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion; fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost”. While the word laws is exchanged for principles it is indeed these principles and ordinances that Lead us to the Atonement and our Salvation. Remember these are the first principles and ordinances. In fact the beginning words of the 4th article of faith were changed in the mid 1800's after the Lord revealed other saving ordinances and in the original wording the 4th Article of Faith said “We believe that these are 1st, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2nd, Repentance; 3rd, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” The “These are” refers to the 3rd article of Faith's Principles and ordinances. If you read the original wording this becomes obvious. Other saving ordinances such as the endowment and sealing would be included in the things we need to be obedient to in order to access the atonement. Nephi leaves room for these in chapter 32 verse 6 where he says there are other parts of the Doctrine of Crist that may bee added after Christ comes in the flesh.

So again what are they? They are Faith, Repentance, and receiving saving ordinances . I would add here as it will become plain the final unmentioned step of enduring to the end. If we can truly get this process down herein we are told is Salvation through the Atonement. We may think that Family History is the pure doctrine of Christ or part of it, or that Tithing or the Word of Wisdom is included in the pure doctrine of Christ, but it is not. That Home Teaching is truly a part of the pure doctrine of Christ but again it is not. These in and of themselves are just more rules and commandments and laws designed to assist us in becoming more like the Son of God and to help us serve others in the same cause.

The “true and only” doctrine of Christ according to Nephi here is to enter the strait and narrow path (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost) and endure to the end “Pressing Forward with Steadfastness”(2nd Nephi 31: 19-21). To see this from another angle we might ask, Can a Buddhist make it back to the Celestial kingdom without ever having paid tithing in this life or the next? Can a Hindu get back to Heavenly Father without doing Home Teaching or Visiting Teaching in this life or the next? Can an Evangelical Christian get back to Heavenly Father without having done their four generation chart? To all of these questions is a resounding, Yes! They will be unable to get back though, if at some point in this life or the next they do not exercise faith, repent of their sins, receive and accept saving ordinances, and endure to the end. Sanctified or spiritually changed at some point along the way, eventually becoming truly perfect. The pure doctrine of Christ is defined as the necessary steps for his children to become like him so that they might enter back into his presence. All will have to in this life or the next be obedient to these principles and ordinances. I would remind us in the church that this is not reason to disregard the other principles like tithing or family history. That to truly be like God and his Son, we must try to keep all that he has given us to do.

there is some confusion at this point because on one hand we are saying that works do not save us and yet we are saying they are at least in regards to some essential or necessary for our exaltation. The difference is monumental when you clearly understand the pure doctrine of Christ. There are two ways to present the gospel. One is that we teach people that outward expressions of their faith is what counts in Heavenly Father's eyes. Keep the commandments, be a 100% Home/Visiting Teacher, receive all the ordianances, go to all your meetings, pay a full tithe, keep the word of wisdom, magnify your callings, and serve a mission; then if you do all this you will have been considered faithful and upon death enter back into the presence of Heavenly Father having done what is required of you.

That sounds great on the surface except it fails for two reasons. The majority of good faithful members of the church will notice they fall short of this works righteousness and see the self imposed bar of perfection as impossible. They will become discouraged and lose hope. The second problem is that any member who feels they have achieved this perfection of works may still find themselves having fallen short of what it is that God is really asking for.

While God does give us rules, laws, commandments, assignments, stewardships, ect...; what he really wants is us to look to Christ and become like him. He wants us spiritually changed. He wants us perfect. Helaman 3:35 states, “Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God”. This Mighty Change we seek comes from bending our will to the will of the Father. It comes from yielding our heart to him. It comes from his gift of grace being given to us enabling us to do way more then we could on our own, including becoming like Christ and becoming perfect. It is an inward change that will reflect itself in outward action and expression. One who has had this spiritual change will undoubtedly move forward in progression continually adapting his life to what God requires of him.

There is no moment in time in this life when we have to have this all thing down perfectly or we have failed. We must see the plan of redemption as a process. This refiner's fire will take time. There will be times when we fall down and mess up. We must “press forward” with “steadfastness” until some future day when we shall be perfect. We must push forward everyday. We must keep getting up and dusting ourselves off. We must keep trying. We must see the things he requires of us an opportunity to become more like him. He gives us things to do to help us in our change to be like him. So while God requires faith, repentance, and saving ordinances they are not required as a means to an end with the end being Salvation. The yielding of our hearts to him is the means to Salvation with works of Righteousness being the obvious expression of that inward change. How much do we love him? How much faith will we have in him? How much will we trust in him? Will we continue to be “steadfast “ the further we “press forward”? He also uses works to place us in situations where we can learn and grow spiritually.

We will go into each of these in more depth but we must at this juncture see the importance on getting on this path, joining in the yoke with Christ. This is more than going to Church. It is more than agreeing to join the church because of some pretty girl or your friend in school. It is more than staying active because of family pressure or risk of letting others down. We have now seen that we can not get back to Heavenly Father through our own actions, so now it is time to team up with “him who is mighty to save”. This inner progression is not a one time thing. Your Faith will be required everyday. Your time spent repenting will need to be a regular occurrence, the attitude or repentance will need to be a constant feeling within you. You will daily need to come to terms with the realization of just how imperfect you are and how short you fall.

The ordinances of the gospel are also lifelong pursuits. While you are baptized only once, you will be renewing that covenant each week as you partake of the sacrament. In essence you will be re-baptized each week in your inner commitment to once again try to keep the commandments and take his name upon you; and he will again promise his spirit to be with you as you try. While only confirmed once, the spirit will leave you if you do not make a constant effort to be clean and repent as needed to have his constant companionship. While we go to the temple once to receive ordinances for ourselves we go back over and over again to receive these ordinances for others. The final Step, enduring to the end is just as it says. It is to endure all that life throws at you remaining strong in your faith, continually going through the refinement process becoming more and more like Christ progressing toward perfection.

[followerofemmanuel]

I was using an older copy of this written down Doctrine of Christ so here should be a better description of the Law of the gospel section.

While prophets warn us of trying to earn Salvation by the keeping the laws and commandments perfectly, we certainly should try to choose the right and set these standards as a goal. Once we see that we can not be saved by the Law, we then need to point ourselves back towards Christ and ask him and the Father what it is that saves us. Once we realize that what saves us is Christ's atonement and our utilizing it by uniting with Christ in trying with all our might, mind, and strength to become like him

The Third Article of Faith says, “Through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel”. One might pick the word obedience out of the statement and begin to dwell too heavily on it. It is not obedience for the sake of Obedience. It is obedience to the Laws and Ordinances of the Gospel. Second it is through the atonement of Christ we are saved. “Through” implies it is the vehicle or mode by which we get, from trying to keep the laws and ordinances of the gospel, to Exaltation with Heavenly Father. The atonement provides the verb or “action” in the process. So what are these laws and ordinances we need to obey?

The answer is found in the very next article of faith. “The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are: first,Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion; fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost”. While the word laws is exchanged for principles it is indeed these principles and ordinances that Lead us to the Atonement and our Salvation. Remember these are the first principles and ordinances. In fact the beginning words of the 4th article of faith were changed in the mid 1800's after the Lord revealed other saving ordinances and in the original wording the 4th Article of Faith said “We believe that these are 1st, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2nd, Repentance; 3rd, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.” The “These are” refers to the 3rd article of Faith's Principles and ordinances. If you read the original wording this becomes obvious. Other saving ordinances such as the endowment and sealing would be included in the things we need to be obedient to in order to access the atonement. Nephi leaves room for these in chapter 32 verse 6 where he says there are other parts of the Doctrine of Crist that may bee added after Christ comes in the flesh.

So again what are they? They are Faith, Repentance, and receiving saving ordinances . I would add here as it will become plain the final unmentioned step of enduring to the end. If we can truly get this process down herein we are told is Salvation through the Atonement. We may think that Family History is the pure doctrine of Christ or part of it, or that Tithing or the Word of Wisdom is included in the pure doctrine of Christ, but it is not. That Home Teaching is truly a part of the pure doctrine of Christ but again it is not. These in and of themselves are just more rules and commandments and laws designed to assist us in becoming more like the Son of God and to help us serve others in the same cause.

The “true and only” doctrine of Christ according to Nephi here is to enter the strait and narrow path (Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost) and endure to the end “Pressing Forward with Steadfastness”(2nd Nephi 31: 19-21). To see this from another angle we might ask, Can a Buddhist make it back to the Celestial kingdom without ever having paid tithing in this life or the next? Can a Hindu get back to Heavenly Father without doing Home Teaching or Visiting Teaching in this life or the next? Can an Evangelical Christian get back to Heavenly Father without having done their four generation chart? To all of these questions is a resounding, Yes! They will be unable to get back though, if at some point in this life or the next they do not exercise faith, repent of their sins, receive and accept saving ordinances, and endure to the end. Sanctified or spiritually changed at some point along the way, eventually becoming truly perfect. The pure doctrine of Christ is defined as the necessary steps for his children to become like him so that they might enter back into his presence. All will have to in this life or the next be obedient to these principles and ordinances. I would remind us in the church that this is not reason to disregard the other principles like tithing or family history. That to truly be like God and his Son, we must try to keep all that he has given us to do.

there is some confusion at this point because on one hand we are saying that works do not save us and yet we are saying they are at least in regards to some essential or necessary for our exaltation. The difference is monumental when you clearly understand the pure doctrine of Christ. There are two ways to present the gospel. One is that we teach people that outward expressions of their faith is what counts in Heavenly Father's eyes. Keep the commandments, be a 100% Home/Visiting Teacher, receive all the ordianances, go to all your meetings, pay a full tithe, keep the word of wisdom, magnify your callings, and serve a mission; then if you do all this you will have been considered faithful and upon death enter back into the presence of Heavenly Father having done what is required of you.

That sounds great on the surface except it fails for two reasons. The majority of good faithful members of the church will notice they fall short of this works righteousness and see the self imposed bar of perfection as impossible. They will become discouraged and lose hope. The second problem is that any member who feels they have achieved this perfection of works may still find themselves having fallen short of what it is that God is really asking for.

While God does give us rules, laws, commandments, assignments, stewardships, ect...; what he really wants is us to look to Christ and become like him. He wants us spiritually changed. He wants us perfect. Helaman 3:35 states, “Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God”. This Mighty Change we seek comes from bending our will to the will of the Father. It comes from yielding our heart to him. It comes from his gift of grace being given to us enabling us to do way more then we could on our own, including becoming like Christ and becoming perfect. It is an inward change that will reflect itself in outward action and expression. One who has had this spiritual change will undoubtedly move forward in progression continually adapting his life to what God requires of him.

There is no moment in time in this life when we have to have this all thing down perfectly or we have failed. We must see the plan of redemption as a process. This refiner's fire will take time. There will be times when we fall down and mess up. We must “press forward” with “steadfastness” until some future day when we shall be perfect. We must push forward everyday. We must keep getting up and dusting ourselves off. We must keep trying. We must see the things he requires of us an opportunity to become more like him. He gives us things to do to help us in our change to be like him. So while God requires faith, repentance, and saving ordinances they are not required as a means to an end with the end being Salvation. The yielding of our hearts to him is the means to Salvation with works of Righteousness being the obvious expression of that inward change. How much do we love him? How much faith will we have in him? How much will we trust in him? Will we continue to be “steadfast “ the further we “press forward”? He also uses works to place us in situations where we can learn and grow spiritually.

We will go into each of these in more depth but we must at this juncture see the importance on getting on this path, joining in the yoke with Christ. This is more than going to Church. It is more than agreeing to join the church because of some pretty girl or your friend in school. It is more than staying active because of family pressure or risk of letting others down. We have now seen that we can not get back to Heavenly Father through our own actions, so now it is time to team up with “him who is mighty to save”. This inner progression is not a one time thing. Your Faith will be required everyday. Your time spent repenting will need to be a regular occurrence, the attitude or repentance will need to be a constant feeling within you. You will daily need to come to terms with the realization of just how imperfect you are and how short you fall.

The ordinances of the gospel are also lifelong pursuits. While you are baptized only once, you will be renewing that covenant each week as you partake of the sacrament. In essence you will be re-baptized each week in your inner commitment to once again try to keep the commandments and take his name upon you; and he will again promise his spirit to be with you as you try. While only confirmed once, the spirit will leave you if you do not make a constant effort to be clean and repent as needed to have his constant companionship. While we go to the temple once to receive ordinances for ourselves we go back over and over again to receive these ordinances for others. The final Step, enduring to the end is just as it says. It is to endure all that life throws at you remaining strong in your faith, continually going through the refinement process becoming more and more like Christ progressing toward perfection.

More questions for you friend (If that is ok). I really appreciate many of the thoughts you have shared. Something that caught my attention in your post is when you wrote, "While only confirmed once, the spirit will leave you if you do not make a constant effort to be clean and repent as needed to have his constant companionship".

It is impossible for me not to fall short in the things I am to do or should not do? It feels like this is where the ephasis of works comes in again, on what I can do vs God grace in and through me. But I don't know how I could ever measure up. How would I know if what I am doing is ever enough, so that the spirit won't leave me? What does this look like for you?

I understand from the Bible that we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit but I understood that would mean to try to live uprightly but not so much out of fear, but rather out of respect, obedience and love for God. Some of the scriptures that have shaped my understanding are below. What Doctrine do you have that has brought you to your understanding?What do you do to prevent the spirit from leaving you? Thanks again for your willingness to share your perspectives.

In Ephesians 4:30-32 the Bible states, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."

Romans 8:26

New International Version (NIV)

²⁶ In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

Ephesians 1:13-14

¹³ And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, ¹⁴ who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:8-17

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, ² because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you^[a] free from the law of sin and death. ³ For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,^[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.^[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.⁹ You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life^[d] because of righteousness. ¹¹ And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of^[e] his Spirit who lives in you. ¹² Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. ¹³ For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. ¹⁴ For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. ¹⁵ The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.^[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,^[g] Father.” ¹⁶ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. ¹⁷ Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Edited May 31, 2012 by followerofemmanuel

[DBMormon]

Followerof Emmanuel - any time. I wish I had seen this earlier. sorry. Good to hear from you again

How would I know if what I am doing is ever enough, so that the spirit won't leave me? What does this look like for you?

When I am rebelling against God and not repenting, I lose the spirit. When I make mistakes and repent and have a broken heart and contrite spirit, the Holy Ghost is with me.

What Doctrine do you have that has brought you to your understanding?What do you do to prevent the spirit from leaving you? Thanks again for your willingness to share your perspectives.

I don't know what you mean by what Doctrine? If you mean where in the scriptures do I get this 2nd Corinthians 12:9, Ether 12:27, Helaman 3:35, Moroni 10:32-33, and 2nd nephi 31 whole chapter/ to prevent the spirit from Leaving I try to be humble, repent, recognize without Christ I am nothing, try to serve him and act in his place, love him and my neighbors. Reach upward and the spirit is there... stay at a plateau or rebel without repentance and I lose it

I agree with your scriptures completely - do you see a contradiction?

[followerofemmanuel]

Followerof Emmanuel - any time. I wish I had seen this earlier. sorry. Good to hear from you again

When I am rebelling against God and not repenting, I lose the spirit. When I make mistakes and repent and have a broken heart and contrite spirit, the Holy Ghost is with me.

I don't know what you mean by what Doctrine? If you mean where in the scriptures do I get this 2nd Corinthians 12:9, Ether 12:27, Helaman 3:35, Moroni 10:32-33, and 2nd nephi 31 whole chapter/ to prevent the spirit from Leaving I try to be humble, repent, recognize without Christ I am nothing, try to serve him and act in his place, love him and my neighbors. Reach upward and the spirit is there... stay at a plateau or rebel without repentance and I lose it

I agree with your scriptures completely - do you see a contradiction?

I guess I am just wondering how you understand the spirit leaves people and then at what point? Do you understand that the spirit comes and goes in your life based on how faithfully you are living or once gone the spirit has left you period. I guess when I read your post in felt like I interpreted it to mean, "you better be good or else I am leaving you" I think I also have to understand who you believe the spirit to be. I understand the spirit to be God. So I guess maybe that’s where my questions should have started. Either way, what implications do you understand this to mean in a believers life?

The scriptures I posted have brought me to an understanding that the Holy Spirit teaches me, seals me unto the end and helps me in my weakness. I believe we can grieve the Holy Spirit with unrepentance and acting as though we want nothing to do with God intervening in our lives. If this is a season of sin, than I believe that God will discipline us until we return to him, but it is our choice. If you always lived pushin God away I guess I would doubt that someone had truly surrendered their life in faith to God. Something likes that. I am no theologian or acedemic so I apoligize in advanced for those who may read this and have any expectations for a high level discussion. As always, thanks for your grace folks.

Edited June 3, 2012 by followerofemmanuel

[DBMormon]

I know what it feels like not to have the Holy Ghost with me. It is at times in my life when I have rebelled and sought to please the natural man and not God. At those imes I find myself empty of his spirit. The very moment I decide to repent and to come unto him, the sprit returns, gradually but in an assisting power that calls me to follow him. It is not a matter of leaving for good. Better put it is a matter of me walking away from him and his waiting for my return standing by ready to bless as soon as I do.

Helaman 3:35 this coming unto christ and changing our natural man to be like him is all about "yielding our hearts to him"

[followerofemmanuel]

No. There are two parts to the Atonement [Grace]. First part is unconditional [totally free] which is given to EVERY person born into this world regardless if they were monstrous people such as Hitler, Attila the Hun, or any other depraved or violent perpetrators. That gift is the resurrection entailing the reunification of the body and the spirit [your actual person] with some degree of glory [Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, ...]

The other part is conditional but NOT in the sense that the Savior needs us to do part of the work. Nothing we do will MERIT any fraction of the Atonement. We are totally dependent on Him. But He does require us to exert ourselves in obedience, faith [extremely important], learning, wisdom, empathy, humility, all things that we experience in this "vale of tears". These efforts are required in order to fulfill the purpose for having mortal [probationary] experiences and to fully participate in the process of the Atonement which our Lord so graciously has offered to us, which is to exalt us and allow us to become like Him. But not everybody will want to exist in the Celestial realm, they may prefer lower kingdoms or even outer darkness.

Not quite. Repentance alone is not enough. We will not MERIT anything with simple promises. We need to go through a refining process . . .

Moroni 10:32

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:20

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Thanks for all the information you have given. I have had some time to read and ponder. You had mention that you believe there are 3 degrees of Glory. My next questions is who goes where and on what grounds. And in your view, is there a hell or lake of fire? Thanks again!

[zerinus]

Not quite. Repentance alone is not enough. We will not MERIT anything with simple promises. We need to go through a refining process . . .

Moroni 10:32

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace is sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:20

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Repentance and keeping the commandments are two sides of the same coin.

[Storm Rider]

Thanks for all the information you have given. I have had some time to read and ponder. You had mention that you believe there are 3 degrees of Glory. My next questions is who goes where and on what grounds. And in your view, is there a hell or lake of fire? Thanks again!

Two coppers from a weak mind and a poor servant: The Bible talks of three glories. Who goes where really depends upon each individual. Not everyone has been given the same opportunities for learning truth in this life and yet God has preprared a way for each to enter his presence or to obtain the greatest glory. What is important is how each responds to truth and lives what truth they have been given. Not a single person will be denied the Celestial Kingdom due to a lack of exposure to the Gospel of Jesus; each will be given the chance to learn, repent, obtain baptism and all other necessary ordinances.

In my personal view there is a hell. For me hell is any degree of separation from God; it is the knowing that we could have dwelt in his presence and chose not to by bowing to the passions of mortality. The lake of fire exists; but I also think of it as a place of utter darkness, an outer darkness if you will. It is that point furtherest from God and where Satan and the sons of perdition reside.

[zerinus]

Zerinus - the parable about lunch is wrong. If your good behavior means you get Ice cream then on some level you merited it or earned it. Yet the scriptures say it is wholly upon the merits, mercy, and grace of God.

The actually being good doesn't get you the ice cream in my theology. The trying or effort does. God is not result based. He looketh on the heart

My parable was not meant to be an accurate representation, but to provide a contrast with followerofemmanuel's parable; and from that point of view it was a correct representation.

[zerinus]

Thanks for all the information you have given. I have had some time to read and ponder. You had mention that you believe there are 3 degrees of Glory. My next questions is who goes where and on what grounds. And in your view, is there a hell or lake of fire? Thanks again!

Information about the three degrees of glory is not given in the Book of Mormon. It is given in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng

If you read that all the way through, it will answer all of your questions.

Edited June 4, 2012 by zerinus

[DBMormon]

D&C 88:21 Only the Sanctified inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Only those who experience the mighty change and have the counteneance of Christ. That can be chosen in this life or the next but can not be postponed when your opportunity comes. These are individuals who repent and live the Doctrine of Christ either in this life if the opportuntiy presents itself or in the next.

The Terrestrial World is those who are good but do not want to live the Doctrine of Christ.

The Tellestial World is for the those who rob and chaet and commit adultery and could care less about the impact of their choices on anyone but themselves

D&C 76

And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of Salvation

Edited June 4, 2012 by reelmormon

[followerofemmanuel]

Information about the three degrees of glory is not given in the Book of Mormon. It is given in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

http://www.lds.org/s.../dc/76?lang=eng

If you read that all the way through, it will answer all of your questions.

Thanks, I will read that!

[followerofemmanuel]

D&C 88:21 Only the Sanctified inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Only those who experience the mighty change and have the counteneance of Christ. That can be chosen in this life or the next but can not be postponed when your opportunity comes. These are individuals who repent and live the Doctrine of Christ either in this life if the opportuntiy presents itself or in the next.

The Terrestrial World is those who are good but do not want to live the Doctrine of Christ.

The Tellestial World is for the those who rob and chaet and commit adultery and could care less about the impact of their choices on anyone but themselves

Helpful. Thank you! So is Tellestrial kinda like hell? Well, I should actually read the link before I ask anymore questions. You guys are great!

[DBMormon]

Helpful. Thank you! So is Tellestrial kinda like hell? Well, I should actually read the link before I ask anymore questions. You guys are great!

Hell in the sense that you missed out and wasted your chance to make a positive effect on you and others. But still more glorious and beautiful then The earth we have now. Also the Holy Ghost will be able to have influence there.

LDS theology aslo has a state called outer darkness where those who deny the holy Ghost or commit murder and do not repent will go.

[zerinus]

Helpful. Thank you! So is Tellestrial kinda like hell?

No. The telestial kingdom is a kingdom of glory, but a lesser glory than the terrestrial or celestial. Some of those who end up in the telestial kingdom may have to pass through hell for their sins; but the telestial is still a kingdom of glory, therefore it is not equivalent to hell.

[DBMormon]

Last Chapter

Salvation

While I could spend a lot of time describing what Salvation holds in store for us, I feel that subject has been exhausted. I would rather take a few minutes and help you to see the simpleness of the The Plan of Redemption is. We are told the story of Moses as he held up the rod with the serpent on it. Any who wanted to be saved from the effects of the bite from the fiery serpent that was sent from God , only had to look at the serpent upon the rod. We are told that many of them perished because they refused to look upon it. We are even told the reason for this decision. They had refused to look because of the easiness of it. The gospel symbolism should be jumping out at us. The serpent here is Christ. He on the cross having made an atonement for us, having provided a simple way, an easy way. Faith, Repent, receive ordinances, and keep trying everyday. Essentially to yield your heart to him (Helaman 3:35).

It doesn't get any easier then that and yet many in the church and out of it refuse to look to Christ and the way because of the easiness of it. They want to be measured by their works, thinking they are doing better than others. They don't realize no matter how good they are or how much they do, it is not enough. Doing works simply for the value that one thinks they have is motivated by pride. The Savior is looking for humility. One who humbles himself and turns his heart over to Christ will have works motivated by his heart and the works over time will have increased by God's Grace.

The Savior and Lucifer both were seen In the pre-existent council as admirable. They were both ones others looked up to. In regards to their works prior to the rebellion one could assume their works were similar. The difference was to be found in what motivated them and to whom or what where their hearts yielded to. Lucifer's heart was full of pride and a desire to glorify himself. Lucifer wanted our return to be based on a perfect works system. He saw a plan where we would all choose the right and all of us make it back. You see, the plan had each of us being judged by our works, which works would have been perfect. If God truly desired a works based righteousness from his children, Satan would have presented the better plan. The Savior had yielded his heart and will to his Heavenly Father and Jesus was full of humility. His way included agency which meant mistakes would be made. His way included faith and repentance, it included a Savior who would lay down his life so that mistakes could be forgiven and forgotten. God cares so much more for his children then we will ever understand and all he ask for is our heart, not our perfection. If our heart is in the right place then while it may take eternity, the perfection will come. We will have the time needed to become perfect if only we will begin this day and every day hereafter to head towards God and his only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who hath laid down his life for us.

2^nd Nephi 31:19-21 clearly explains that the principles laid out here are the pure doctrine of Christ. It is the only and true doctrine for us to return to our Heavenly Father.