God, the prophet and slavery

[Rain]

Putting this up for Tacenda:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Utah

Bringing this up again, how can God allow the prophet to okay slavery? Aren't we telling the world we have an inside with God in our church? If so, how can slavery be okay with God. This is the dichotomy I have with the church. If the church was not perfect, I could get over it, but we are told the church is perfect not the people, does it always include the prophet? If so why are we taught to follow the prophet? We should only be taught to follow Jesus Christ.

[The Nehor]

You would have to ask God why he did not intervene. I have lots of “why” questions I would like answered so if you get answers let me know and I will send you a list.

[JAHS]

17 minutes ago, Rain said:

we are told the church is perfect not the people

Actually that should be the Gospel is perfect; not the people or the church. The church is governed by imperfect people, therefore the church as an organization cannot be perfect; this can include some policies or church leader opinions that may not be so perfect, although we hope that most are inspired by God. 

[bluebell]

I don't know the answer to the slavery question, but in answer to the "why are we taught to follow the prophet? We should only be taught to follow Jesus Christ" question, i'd have to ask Tacenda, can she name one thing that she knows about Jesus Christ that didn't come through a prophet?

 

[Buckeye]

In a nutshell, I believe God judges us based on the direction we are moving rather than the place we are at. That's why he can call some people "righteous" even though they are not perfect. The key is the direction you are moving. So a slaveholder who beats his wife and kids and steals can be called "righteous" when he is repenting of the stealing even though he still has a long ways to go on the other issues. It's not that God approves of the other sins, but he approves of the person's direction.  This is how I make sense of Paul's instructions regarding masters and slaves treating each other well. It's not that slavery is good, but taking slavery as the given reality at the time, treating each other well is an improvement .... and moreover, continuing the course of improvement will eventually lead to an end to slavery. 

This same principle holds true for families, churches, and societies as it does for individuals.

I will also add that just because scriptures speak approving of something does not mean God actually approved that. Scriptures reflect the context and prejudice of their authors and societies. For instance, Nephi was wrong in his conclusion that black skin is a curse, but I'm not going to throw out all his teachings just because of that any more than I'm going to prevent my kids from reading Huckleberry Finn just because it uses the "n" word. Again, direction matters more than place. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Buckeye

[Tacenda]

Thanks for posting this topic Rain. Not sure if it will get much traffic because what's done is done.

I'm sad that I didn't know about this piece of history until recently. I really just want to right so many wrongs that have left humans devastated. I'm angry that Utah allowed it. I'm angry that members of the LDS church allowed it, and people simply had no clue!

How can humans act this way and say they are Christian? Even those in the Bible? I guess I get easily offended at how people are treated when all they did was be born. I really can't believe a prophet of God could act this way. But understand how people are sheep, and we need more goats (heard a talk about this recently, being goats). I know that the peoples of this earth continually kill or enslave others to this day.

Again, I just wanted my voice heard because I noticed on the other thread there was mostly silence. Do we give BY a pass? Do we need to step away from the "follow the prophet" mantra? Or are we safe in thinking another prophet won't lead us astray as BY did, IMO. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Tacenda

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You would have to ask God why he did not intervene. I have lots of “why” questions I would like answered so if you get answers let me know and I will send you a list.

Yeah...when was the last date of intervention?

 

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Yeah...when was the last date of intervention?

 

This morning. God told me there is no way his son was going out into the world dressed like that.

[The Nehor]

Maybe like animal sacrifice and polygamy slavery had to come into being in the Church at some time as part of the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times and having to restore every principle.

*Nehor ducks and runs for cover!*

[JLHPROF]

"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another. God said thou shalt not kill,—at another time he said, thou shalt utterly destroy. This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire."

Not saying slavery is right.  But the question should always be whether it was directed by God or not.  
For example - 
Exodus 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

So did God say this or not?  That's a matter of faith.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

How can humans act this way and say they are Christian?

Do you feel this way about America in general since the vast majority of those who approved of or tolerated slavery in the US likely were Christians?

Quote

I just wanted my voice heard

i don't think it likely you will change anyone's opinion here, it is just words on a screen.

Otoh, if you started to let your voice be heard by your friends and neighbours when they can also see you, that might have an effect.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Calm

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Buckeye said:

In a nutshell, I believe God judges us based on the direction we are moving rather than the place we are at. That's why he can call some people "righteous" even though they are not perfect. The key is the direction you are moving. So a slaveholder who beats his wife and kids and steals can be called "righteous" when he is repenting of the stealing even though he still has a long ways to go on the other issues. It's not that God approves of the other sins, but he approves of the person's direction.  This is how I make sense of Paul's instructions regarding masters and slaves treating each other well. It's not that slavery is good, but taking slavery as the given reality at the time, treating each other well is an improvement .... and moreover, continuing the course of improvement will eventually lead to an end to slavery. 

This same principle holds true for families, churches, and societies as it does for individuals.

I will also add that just because scriptures speak approving of something does not mean God actually approved that. Scriptures reflect the context and prejudice of their authors and societies. For instance, Nephi was wrong in his conclusion that black skin is a curse, but I'm not going to throw out all his teachings just because of that any more than I'm going to prevent my kids from reading Huckleberry Finn just because it uses the "n" word. Again, direction matters more than place. 

Would you say that applies to current church doctrine as well?  And what if a person makes life changing decisions on current church doctrine, only to find out that later, that doctrine is wrong.  Is the take away that you should not rely on church doctrine to make important decisions in your life, but to rely more heavily on the Spirit and guidance you personally receive.

[rpn]

I would challenge the wikipedia discussion of slavery's accuracy, specifically "Mormons justified slavery despite Mexico's ban on slavery based on their beliefs on blacks."    I'm not persuaded that "mormons believed anything about blacks as a whole.   In fact, the result of my own research suggests that BY withheld priesthood from blacks precisely because that was the only way he could think of to prevent interracial marriage (after he learned the son of a prominent black man in MA had done, and about Mr. McCary(sp?) who was a black member who formed his own church and required white women to stay with him, which apparently was okay to some white women in Winter Quarters), and he thought that the church could not defend both polygamy and interracial marriage in the society in which they lived.

Further, church leaders excommunicated slave owners whose slaves gave birth to mulatto children, and if Green Flake was any example, black members who were slaves had a great more autonomy that slaves of non-members did, suggesting that while still being slaves, church membership may have changed the nature of the master slave relationship too.

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Would you say that applies to current church doctrine as well?  And what if a person makes life changing decisions on current church doctrine, only to find out that later, that doctrine is wrong.  Is the take away that you should not rely on church doctrine to make important decisions in your life, but to rely more heavily on the Spirit and guidance you personally receive.

Yes of course. You should rely on what best takes you to truth. In my experience sometimes i think I know better than church leaders and I come to learn I was wrong. So I repent (change). Sometimes I learn I was right and the leaders change. Through it all the spirit sustains and encourages. The key is the keep walking and make truth the goal rather than winning the argument. 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know the answer to the slavery question, but in answer to the "why are we taught to follow the prophet? We should only be taught to follow Jesus Christ" question, i'd have to ask Tacenda, can she name one thing that she knows about Jesus Christ that didn't come through a prophet?

 

 

This is exactly the issue that drives me nuts about modern Protestant "Christianity".

Edited January 10, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks for posting this topic Rain. Not sure if it will get much traffic because what's done is done.

I'm sad that I didn't know about this piece of history until recently. I really just want to right so many wrongs that have left humans devastated. I'm angry that Utah allowed it. I'm angry that members of the LDS church allowed it, and people simply had no clue!

How can humans act this way and say they are Christian? Even those in the Bible? I guess I get easily offended at how people are treated when all they did was be born. I really can't believe a prophet of God could act this way. But understand how people are sheep, and we need more goats (heard a talk about this recently, being goats). I know that the peoples of this earth continually kill or enslave others to this day.

Again, I just wanted my voice heard because I noticed on the other thread there was mostly silence. Do we give BY a pass? Do we need to step away from the "follow the prophet" mantra? Or are we safe in thinking another prophet won't lead us astray as BY did, IMO. 

Slavery was rampant in the Old Testament, in fact there were many rules specifically designed to handle the issue of slaves.

It is not like BY started all this 

https://www.rationalchristianity.net/slavery_ot.html

 

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

Putting this up for Tacenda:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Utah

Bringing this up again, how can God allow the prophet to okay slavery? Aren't we telling the world we have an inside with God in our church? If so, how can slavery be okay with God. This is the dichotomy I have with the church. If the church was not perfect, I could get over it, but we are told the church is perfect not the people, does it always include the prophet? If so why are we taught to follow the prophet? We should only be taught to follow Jesus Christ.

We only follow the prophet the same way Israel followed Moses and Samuel, because they are the oracles of God.  They are not perfect, nor is the Church perfect.  God is perfect, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfectly true.  Once you understand those premises, everything else falls into place.

For example, the NT apostles instructed slaves to obey their masters (Eph 6:5-8, Col 3:22-24, 1Tim 6:1-2, Titus 2:9-10, 1 Pet 2:18).  Early Christians did not recommend an end to slavery.  They were not abolitionists.  How can that be if the Christian Church is a righteous Church?  Indeed, if the people of Israel were the righteous people of God, how could they allow all the horrible cultural practices of the OT?  I am assuming that you actually know something about the Bible and biblical history.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This morning. God told me there is no way his son was going out into the world dressed like that.

Proof right there

He told me the same thing.  Two witnesses. 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

..........................................How can humans act this way and say they are Christian? Even those in the Bible? I guess I get easily offended at how people are treated when all they did was be born. I really can't believe a prophet of God could act this way.

You are correct to mention the Bible, because we find prophets there engaged in public executions and other horrors.  Singling out Brigham Young only includes him in the biblical pattern of behavior and reinforces our certain knowledge that prophets are never perfect. Nor should we expect them to be perfect -- that is our Achilles Heel: False expectations.

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

..............................................Again, I just wanted my voice heard because I noticed on the other thread there was mostly silence. Do we give BY a pass? Do we need to step away from the "follow the prophet" mantra? Or are we safe in thinking another prophet won't lead us astray as BY did, IMO. 

Any prophet should be judged on his overall work, not on one or two issues alone.  Particularly when they are part of a cultural pattern acceptable in that time and place.  Presentism is highly inappropriate.  19th century racism was pervasive throughout American culture, and remained so into my own lifetime.  As my  own mother told me:  "Sometimes it takes people a long time to change."  We need to accept human frailties and work patiently for change.  Just grousing about it isn't enough.  I challenge all those who denounce racism to tell us what you have done to end that sick behavior.

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are correct to mention the Bible, because we find prophets there engaged in public executions and other horrors.  Singling out Brigham Young only includes him in the biblical pattern of behavior and reinforces our certain knowledge that prophets are never perfect. Nor should we expect them to be perfect -- that is our Achilles Heel: False expectations.

Any prophet should be judged on his overall work, not on one or two issues alone.  Particularly when they are part of a cultural pattern acceptable in that time and place.  Presentism is highly inappropriate.  19th century racism was pervasive throughout American culture, and remained so into my own lifetime.  As my  own mother told me:  "Sometimes it takes people a long time to change."  We need to accept human frailties and work patiently for change.  Just grousing about it isn't enough.  I challenge all those who denounce racism to tell us what you have done to end that sick behavior.

Bold mine: I'm all up for any suggestions. I've already been proactive for something just as sick and donated for the prevention of sex trafficking. I can't believe there is still slavery of humans elsewhere as well...read an article recently. I guess I need to put up or shut up and donate to something that helps prevent that as well. But just reread what you said in bold and the only thing I've done is speak up to someone that says racist things...one step at a time I guess.

My main beef in saying what I'm saying about Brigham Young is, why would a true prophet of the true church, or only true church on earth, fail miserably like that? I thought God wouldn't allow a prophet to lead us astray like that and remember quotes from church leaders to that effect.

My whole life I held our church on a pedestal and believed my sweet mom when she would tell me that the people aren't perfect but the church is, but I guess she meant the gospel. It's tough when the actual prophet messes up. How do I trust a man? How do I trust the scriptures when some of the scriptures are so inhumane? And I'm supposed to believe God was okay with it?

I'll never forget president Jimmy Carter who mentioned that what is said in the Bible is really the cause of how women have been treated wrongfully, and how we can blame the Bible. He should have added men to that statement as well.

Thanks for your time in responding to my previous posts Robert, appreciate you and the others on this. I guess it's time to grow up and move forward. 

[carbon dioxide]

29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My main beef in saying what I'm saying about Brigham Young is, why would a true prophet of the true church, or only true church on earth, fail miserably like that? I thought God wouldn't allow a prophet to lead us astray like that and remember quotes from church leaders to that effect.

Perhaps what is meant by the prophet not leading us astray is not exactly what one might think.  Perhaps it does not mean not capable of making mistakes or even teaching false things.  Perhaps it has to do with the real important stuff.  The stuff that God really cares about and the stuff that ultimate affects salvation and exaltation.  Perhaps it means keeping the church from falling into total apostasy.  Nobody is going to miss out on celestial glory over the slavery issue from the 19th century.  One can disagree with Brigham Young on it or a host of other side issues.  The question is does on let those issues wipe out of what is really important.  One will miss out on celestial glory for letting issues like it get in the way of the gospel and saving ordinances that is offered to us.  Some choose to do that.  They think they are doing something noble for leaving the church over the issue of say polygamy.   Nothing noble will be said of them in the eternities as they miss out on Celestial glory as they dwell in a lower kingdom.  They will have eternity to think if those side issues were worthy the reward they got.    The bottom line for us is not to let these side issues get in the way of the real objective of why we came to this world.

Edited January 10, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

............................................

My whole life I held our church on a pedestal and believed my sweet mom when she would tell me that the people aren't perfect but the church is, but I guess she meant the gospel. It's tough when the actual prophet messes up. How do I trust a man? How do I trust the scriptures when some of the scriptures are so inhumane? And I'm supposed to believe God was okay with it?........................................

On Sunday during Fast & Testimony mtg, a man got up and spoke about growing up in Pres Thomas Monson's ward in SLC.  On Fast Sunday he was one of those young Aaronic priesthood who went out collecting fast offerings, and he went to Pres Monson's house, where he was admitted inside.  Pres Monson was trying hard to find his checkbook, but it was taking some time, when his outside security man came in to help him.  Pres Monson was curt with the guy and told him to go back outside.  This was a testimony to this man that the Lord calls flawed people to run His Church.  None of them are perfect, and we should not expect them to be.

Of course God is not O.K. with it.  But he leaves us on our own to do the best we can.  Just keep hanging in there, Tacenda.  Your sense of right & wrong will stand you in good stead.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Storm Rider]

I find a mountain of wrong with those who seek to judge history by today's standards and, often, today's complete ignorance.  Slavery, as already stated, has existed throughout history.  It is a power-packed word that some like to bandy about like boogey men - it is meant to demean, to make outlandishly wrong, etc.  If you are talking about being against slavery for the mere fact that one human should not own another then you have a conversation.  However, if it something else then you need to unpack the word and define it for me.  There have been many cases of benevolent slavery such as in ancient Greece.  The Greeks were very cognizant that if they did not treat their slaves well they would rise up and revolt.  Incidentally, you find times of peace and other times of discontent.  Why do you think one people were content to be slaves even when they had the ability to revolt?  

Ancient Israel was content to be the slaves of the Egyptians until it got to the point where they were treated very poorly.  What happened then?  The people, the slaves,  revolted.  The concept that every slave owner was a monster that went about raping, beating, and starving their slaves is a falsehood society creates only to condemn slavery.  I reject that because it does not make sense; it is not a system that works.  It has always been far more likely that slave owners needed to treat and care for their slaves in order to pacify them in order to protect their investment.

My issue with slaver has nothing to do with the way an owner treats a slave.  My issue is that I believe in the nobility of each individual and no one has the right to own another.  Full stop.  Nothing else to say to try and make it more evil or gruesome than that.

I have never heard the church was true; I always heard it said that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.  

I tried to teach my children that the moment they raise their hand to condemn another the first thing they had to say was "You are human".  After that there really is not much that needs to be said.  I find it sad when we, all of us including me, try to raise ourselves up by condemning the humanness of another.  It is as if we have never done wrong or never harmed another.  Each of us is just a human filled with frailties and ignorance.  That is one of the amazing Graces about Jesus Christ - he accepts us just as we are and through his perfection we are allowed to become his joint-heirs.  It does not matter if I am in prison, a slave, or a homeless person, or sitting cozy in my home.  He loves us and seeks us to enter into his Kingdom. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be and often is, right under another. God said thou shalt not kill,—at another time he said, thou shalt utterly destroy. This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire."

Not saying slavery is right.  But the question should always be whether it was directed by God or not.  
For example - 
Exodus 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

So did God say this or not?  That's a matter of faith.

I doubt God likes it in any case. It might be allowable as a necessity as the more humane optionj in those rare circumstances where the only other realistic option is execution or dying in the streets but It is still destructive to everyone involved. The slave lacks the kind of liberty that brings hope and joy to the soul and the slaveowner is beset with all kinds of temptations to abuse their position or just to be downright cruel for economic or even sadistic reasons. Plus making merchandise of others whether through slavery or other means is the mark of Babylon. Given the option personally between slavery and death I would rather die. At least I could do what I desired in the next life.

Basically, I have no idea why it was allowed or if it was allowed or whatever. The words of Brigham Young are between him and God. He doesn't report to me.

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

At least I could do what I desired in the next life.

I know what you meant, but that may not be fully accurate.  Obedience is the first law.