Be ye therefore perfect.

[changed]

Those who try to be perfect often end up pretending they are perfect which leads to some into the pattern of thinking they are close to perfect, which then leads to the most horrible types of personalities that I know.

A wise Rabbi once said God puts a little "salt" into all of us - that it's our job not to be too salty, but the soup is no good if there is no salt in it at all....

I tell my engineering students not to aim for perfection.  We joke about scientists vs. engineers, before a discussion on error analysis I ask them if they have ever hear the phrase an "exact science" - and yes, everyone has hear that phrase.  I then ask if they have hear the phrase "exact engineering" ... and everyone scratches their heads, and admits that no, they have never hear the phrase "exact engineering" before, and then we have a conversation about why the phrase "exact engineering" does not exist.  

These smart students come into college - and you don't choose to major in engineering if you are scared of math or academics,  I get all the "smart" good kids in my classes.  The problem with smart/good students is when they hit the new college level, when they are no longer the smart kid in the class, (everyone in class is smart) - and then they are no longer able to make 100% on all their tests, and they are not perfect, and it turns out no one in real life is perfect, and there is nothing that is exact in the real world.... perhaps the best thing to do is stop trying to be perfect.  It's only when you stop trying to be perfect, that you can see reality more clearly.  To admit and be ok with a little salt in the soup - and be around others who readily admit  to the salt in their own soup, and dare I say even enjoy that little bit of salt - the salt makes everything real, honest, etc.... 

ok, stopping the rambling.  

Is it healthier to demand that everyone attain perfection (demand the impossible, and lead a life of lies)

or is it healthier to to take that bowl of soup with a little bit of salt, and acknowledge that a little bit of salt is a good thing.  

I mean the "perfect" plan that god came up with did involve "salt".... it is not a salt-free plan.

Edited November 12, 2017 by changed

[Hamba Tuhan]

Since perfect means 'complete, not lacking anything', soup without salt is clearly not perfect.

[Freedom]

Be Ye Therefore Perfect Eventually

A talk by Elder Holland that addresses this question quite effectively. 

[Jane_Doe]

17 minutes ago, Freedom said:

Be Ye Therefore Perfect Eventually

A talk by Elder Holland that addresses this question quite effectively. 

Totally!

[Five Solas]

1 hour ago, Freedom said:

Be Ye Therefore Perfect Eventually

A talk by Elder Holland that addresses this question quite effectively. 

"Eventually" - Calls to mind Augustine of Hippo's famous prayer - "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet."

;0)

--Erik

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Freedom said:

Be Ye Therefore Perfect Eventually

A talk by Elder Holland that addresses this question quite effectively. 

 

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Totally!

 

5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

"Eventually" - Calls to mind Augustine of Hippo's famous prayer - "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet."

;0)

--Erik

Spoken/posted like someone who didn't bother to read the talk, right?  

Just sayin'!

[strappinglad]

I am a big fan of engineers. I am happy that they generally try to ' over' engineer the products and infrastructure we use daily. When the elevator says that it's load maximum is 1200 lbs. , I know that it wasn't built to only hold 1201 lbs. I also know that catastrophic damage happens if a small error slips by. There was a collapse of a parkade where the main beam failed. It was exactly 1/2 as big as it should have been. when I taught calculus I would tell my students that the math they were learning gave them access to positions in which errors could hurt people. Perfection was not possible but you better be awfully close. Check, double check, triple check.

Having rambled all that, in personal progress being a perfectionist is a good way to be unhappy. Even Christ said there is none ' good ' only the Father. That leaves us all some wiggle room.

[Jane_Doe]

Clip notes for @Five Solas: 

Be Ye Therefore Perfect—Eventually

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father … in heaven is perfect” [Matthew 5:48]. … Such celestial goals seem beyond our reach. Yet surely the Lord would never give us a commandment He knew we could not keep. …

Around the Church I hear many struggle with this issue: “I am just not good enough.” “I fall so far short.” …

… I believe that Jesus did not intend His sermon on this subject to be a verbal hammer for battering us about our shortcomings. No, I believe He intended it to be a tribute to who and what God the Eternal Father is and what we can achieve with Him in eternity. …

… Every one of us aspires to a more Christlike life than we often succeed in living. If we admit that honestly and are trying to improve, we are not hypocrites; we are human. May we refuse to let our own mortal follies, and the inevitable shortcomings of even the best men and women around us, make us cynical about the truths of the gospel, the truthfulness of the Church, our hope for the future, or the possibility of godliness. If we persevere, then somewhere in eternity our refinement will be finished and complete. …

I testify of that grand destiny, made available to us by the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Full Address

[filovirus]

Every time we repent we are made perfect in Christ. Want to be perfect? Repent a lot.

[Storm Rider]

In perfection our goal on this earth is to learn to love as the Father loves.  In this context the elitist projection of living perfectly is removed and replaced with the humility and work of learning to love our enemy and those who themselves feel beyond love. 

[Calm]

"Is it healthier to demand that everyone attain perfection (demand the impossible, and lead a life of lies)"

I don't think God commanding perfection means the lies automatically follow.  Believing perfection can be attainable sometime in the future encourages progress rather than stagnation, imo.

One can be both realistic and aiming higher than what we are now and being honest and open about it all.

[changed]

8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I am a big fan of engineers. I am happy that they generally try to ' over' engineer the products and infrastructure we use daily. When the elevator says that it's load maximum is 1200 lbs. , I know that it wasn't built to only hold 1201 lbs. I also know that catastrophic damage happens if a small error slips by. There was a collapse of a parkade where the main beam failed. It was exactly 1/2 as big as it should have been. when I taught calculus I would tell my students that the math they were learning gave them access to positions in which errors could hurt people. Perfection was not possible but you better be awfully close. Check, double check, triple check.

Having rambled all that, in personal progress being a perfectionist is a good way to be unhappy. Even Christ said there is none ' good ' only the Father. That leaves us all some wiggle room.

Safety factors are a great thing, but there are limited resources to consider too - cost vs. safety, in another class we play the game - 10,000 refugees just crossed your boarder, and red cross only gave you X amount of 2X4's and X yards of tarp to make temporary housing.  what is the most efficient design?  You will not be able to house everyone, how many people can you take care of?

One of my classes will start their ethics case study this week.  I make them choose a real case:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_disasters_by_death_toll

https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/Ethics/EthicsReferenceGuide.pdf 

https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/Ethics/CodeofEthics/Code-2007-July.pdf

That ethics start while they are still in school https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/resources/pdfs/Ethics/EthicsResources/EthicsCaseSearch/2005/BER 05-12 - FINAL.pdf

Sometimes there is no perfect solution, you have to choose who will die, and who will live: https://www.nspe.org/sites/default/files/BER 16-5 APPROVED.pdf 

 

Engineering aside, sometimes the only way to get someone out of the mud, is to go into the mud after them.  

Not too much salt in the soup... but a little salt is needed.  No one is going to open up and talk frankly to someone with no salt in their soup.

Engineers' Creed
As a Professional Engineer, I dedicate my
professional knowledge and skill to the
advancement and betterment of human welfare.
I pledge:
To give the utmost of performance;
To participate in none but honest enterprise;
To live and work according to the laws of man
and the highest standards of professional
conduct;
To place service before profit, the honor and standing of
the profession before personal advantage, and the
public welfare above all other considerations.
In humility and with need for Divine Guidance, I
make this pledge.

Edited November 13, 2017 by changed

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, changed said:

Is it healthier to demand that everyone attain perfection (demand the impossible, and lead a life of lies)

It's better to aim for the stars and miss than to aim for your feet and hit. 

[changed]

44 minutes ago, Amulek said:

It's better to aim for the stars and miss than to aim for your feet and hit. 

Not aim for your feet, but at least look down at them and understand the ground we all have to stand on.

[theplains]

On 12/11/2017 at 3:42 PM, changed said:

I tell my engineering students not to aim for perfection.

Is it healthier to demand that everyone attain perfection (demand the impossible, and lead a life of lies)

I hope those engineers who build large suspension bridges aim for perfection.

In my opinion, the context of "be ye therefore perfect" is not attaining godhood but rather how to treat those
around us / and how we behave as individuals (he verses leading up to Matthew 5:48).

Thanks,
Jim

 

[RevTestament]

20 hours ago, theplains said:

I hope those engineers who build large suspension bridges aim for perfection.

In my opinion, the context of "be ye therefore perfect" is not attaining godhood but rather how to treat those
around us / and how we behave as individuals (he verses leading up to Matthew 5:48).

Thanks,
Jim

I agree here plains. The essence of the law is one of intent. We don't all have the same capabilities and talents, but God can't ask anything less than perfection in us, and does expect us to try to do our best, which speaks to our intent rather than some kind of super-being who feeds the whole world. Even Yeshua could not do miracles for the faithless. That didn't make Him imperfect. If we are trying to do our best solely because we want to be God, that's not an attitude that lends itself well to perfection - it's an imperfect attitude. If we are trying to do our best purely out of desire to help our fellow man, and to be pleasing unto God, I don't think anyone can complain too much. What more can God ask of anyone? Where we fall short we pray for forgiveness, and our Savior makes up the difference. Then we are perfected in Him. 

I believe it relevant to note the fact that those who do follow will end up judging the angels as Paul says:

1 Corinthians 6:2-3

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall ^ajudge the ^bworld? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

How is that possible in the traditional Christian understanding? LDS understanding is that some do not make it into the house of God as elohim/gods. They remain messengers of God or angels, because they didn't follow the Lord as well. The traditional idea of angels being some kind of third created creature that never comes to earth doesn't withstand the scrutiny of scripture. 

I am curious how you respond to the following scripture - does God look for a godly seed in the world or not?

Malachi 2:15

15 And did not he make ^aone? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a ^bgodly ^cseed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the ^dwife of his youth.

What this tells me is several things. As we mature in Christ, we are weaned from the milk and into his meat. Even though we may mature past many in the Church(the wife), it is through the Church that Christ teaches us and prompts us to grow. To then dispise or look down on those who are still growing in the Church is contraindicated. Instead we should continue in the fold and be examples to those who are trying to follow the Lord - lend our experience, knowledge, and loving guidance. As you point out striving for perfection is certainly merited, and we hope engineers, doctors and other experts are so inclined.

I liked the example of that Engineers' Creed, and have changed it just a little to apply to Christians:

As a Professional Christian, I dedicate my
professional knowledge and skill to the
advancement and betterment of human welfare.
I pledge:
To give the utmost of performance;
To participate in none but honest enterprise;
To live and work according to the laws of man
and the highest standards of professional conduct;
To place service to Christ before profit, the honor and standing of
the Christian brotherhood before personal advantage, and the
public welfare above all other considerations.
In humility and with need for Divine Guidance, I
make this pledge.

Maybe we should add that to our Temple ordinaces...  

[The Nehor]

Being perfect is rough:

 

[Jeanne]

There is no perfection on this earth...orthe idea of it ..even for the Savior..had he lived or died a different way...we would always have to attain for something better...it is our nature.  Sometimes that gets us in big trouble. The very human side of Jesus would have maybe struggled as to what perfection really is in the eyes of His father.  The God part of his being gave Him a more knowing and trusting kind of development to achieve His father's desires and goals.  I don't see how we can do this...even with help..we are sometimes clueless to what it all means.  I don't think anyone will be in the Celestial Kingdom as mormons believe..but will achieve a glory that can only be obtained by knowledge.

Striving for the very word of perfection..and not just improvement ..sets us up to fail. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Jeanne

[Meerkat]

On 11/12/2017 at 12:42 PM, changed said:

 I tell my engineering students not to aim for perfection. 

The Savior invited us to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." Then He gave us instructions how to do it.

I don't think the perfection He is talking about is becoming a robot that can draw a perfect line every time.  It is in the Gospel sense, in my opinion.  I believe the perfection He is talking about is Christlike charity described in Moroni 7:13, 16, 33, 46 and 47.  That comes from learning how to get along with people in this world.  Family members, neighbors, students, even enemies, etc.  We can't learn how to become perfect without learning how to tolerate, forgive and ultimately love one another, as He loves us.  The perfection He is suggesting appears to be relational.

That perfection isn't likely to be completed in this life.  But we are to work at it so that when we see Him, we will be like Him (1 John 3.)

An important component is learning to control our thoughts as Christ explained in Matthew 5:21-28. The rest of the Beatitudes also give guidance on how to become perfect, in the Gospel sense.  

We should strive for it.  But also be realistic.  We are mortal beings.  I believe we were sent here to experience enough failure we would learn our success is dependent upon yoking up with the Savior.  We can't do it on our own, in my opinion.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Meerkat

[theplains]

22 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

It was our Creator who instructed us to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect." Then He gave us instructions how to do it.

Do you believe the verse would have an entirely different meaning if he had said "Become perfect ..."?

Thanks,
Jim

[Meerkat]

31 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe the verse would have an entirely different meaning if he had said "Become perfect ..."?

Thanks,
Jim

My understanding of "be" in this context is "become." Otherwise, the statement would imply perfection is futile.  I don't believe that.  Why would the Lord give us Commandments and tell us to control our minds if it were impossible? I can take the Commandments one by one and become perfect in them.  Which one is too hard? Please advise.  😀

Edited November 25, 2017 by Meerkat

[Atheist Mormon]

On 11/12/2017 at 11:02 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Spoken/posted like someone who didn't bother to read the talk, right?  

Just sayin'!

I read it, and it is futile, whatever he says "We thank heaven for every chapter and verse we have ever been given.' "What I now say in no way denies or diminishes any commandment God has ever given us"

When Elder Holland says this, why do we need to listen or read any talks? You have already all the answers & wisdom you need. 

[Kenngo1969]

 

Quote

I read it, and it is futile, whatever he says

Whatever, Dude!  

[Meerkat]

24 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Out of honest curiosity, Meerkat, what commandments do you think you're living perfectly or at least feel like you're getting close?  Also, is there any particular reason attainment needs to be single-threaded ("one by one") vs. taking a multi-threaded approach? 

--Erik 

Hi Erik--

I hope you and your family had a nice Thanksgiving!  We spent it up in Victoria with our oldest son and his family.   

I believe God gave us Commandments because He wants us to be happy, not because He wants to punish us for breaking them.  Obedience, in my case, results in increased faith in my Savior and joy in my life.

Regarding your questions:  The following are some I feel I'm making okay progress on, and I expect your answers would be similar:

Thou shalt not kill (I don't get angry often, if at all)

Thou shalt not commit adultery (The only person I have eyes for is my dear wife. Never a thought of anyone else.)

Thou shalt not steal.  Perfect

Thou shalt not bear false witness.  Close.  I may accidentally get roped into telling a white lie.  But I don't think so, and it wouldn't be intentional.

Thou shalt not covet.  Close.  Can't think of anything I want that's beyond my reach.

Honor they Father and they Mother  Close, if not perfect

Bring ye all the tithes to the storehouse perfect.

I need work on these:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  I have to be careful because my love for my wife is so deep.

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy.  I try, but do not always live up to this one.  With the Lord's help, I will do better.

Adequately loving God and my fellow beings.  I judge people wrongfully.  I say things that are hurtful or can be misunderstood.  I am not always valiant in my testimony of Christ, etc.

Fasting

When I think about it, there are others in the mix I am working on, but with the Lord's help feel like I'm doing okay and will continue to improve throughout my life.  I don't expect perfection in this life, but am enjoying the journey very much.

I like the way Heavenly Father encourages obedience:

For honoring parents:

Honor they Father and they mother that Thy days may be long. It's the first commandment with a promise.  (See Ephesians 6:2-3)

Tithing:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."  Malachi 10:3

Fasting: 

Isaiah 58 has some great promises for fasting and Sabbath keeping:

"10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
            11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
            12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."

I don't know why God gives us promises for obedience.  We certainly don't deserve it.  But He does, so I will try to obey.  When I fall short, I will repent and try again.

Regarding multi threads, no reason to focus on one at a time, other than my question about which commandment is too hard to keep.  Do you see any that are too hard to keep?  If so, let me know because I don't see any that, with practice, I can't learn to keep.  Do you?  If so, which one or ones?  

Out of honest curiosity, my good friend, how are you doing in the commandment department?  I expect pretty good. 🙄

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Oh, I dunno.  Never met Meerkat in real life.  Maybe he's Charles Manson, but I doubt it (since Manson's dead ).  If I were a betting man, I'd say he's kept the sixth commandment pretty well.  

Thanks for the compliment Kenngo!  The closest I ever came to breaking that one was when our oldest was 14 and enamored with Heavy Metal.  Fortunately, we reached an accommodation.  I traded him a bike speedometer for his radio.  He lived to ride another day.  And I am here to tell the story.  😎