Be ye therefore perfect.

[Anakin7]

Matthew 6:14 is a must in the eyes of the Lord of Life/Lord/Redeemer/Savior/God/King/Master Christ Jesus to Wash our Garments/Robes In The Blood of The Lamb [Christ Jesus] to enter through The Heavenly  Jerusalem gates of which I have become more perfect in. He knows my Heart and mind in this. 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment in His Blood

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Anakin7  LDS Sentinel/Son Of Thunder/ Kryptionian

[Meerkat]

19 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Out of honest curiosity, Meerkat, what commandments do you think you're living perfectly or at least feel like you're getting close?  Also, is there any particular reason attainment needs to be single-threaded ("one by one") vs. taking a multi-threaded approach? 

--Erik 

I hope my responses to your questions were helpful.  What are your thoughts on these three questions:

1.  Why did God give us Commandments, and promises as an incentive for keeping them?

2.  Why did Jesus instruct us to " Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."  Matt 5:48

3.  What kind of effort does God expect us to make in response to the Savior's teachings?

I'm interested in your insights. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Meerkat

[theplains]

On 25/11/2017 at 4:18 PM, Meerkat said:

My understanding of "be" in this context is "become." Otherwise, the statement would imply perfection is futile.  I don't believe that.  Why would the Lord give us Commandments and tell us to control our minds if it were impossible? I can take the Commandments one by one and become perfect in them.  Which one is too hard? Please advise.  😀

From what I understand of LDS theology, God is said to have given Adam and Eve two commandments; they had to disobey
one to fulfil the other.  It was impossible to keep both at the same time. I don't believe this. Adam and Eve had just as much
ability to procreate before the Fall as did the plants and animals.

Jim

[Meerkat]

40 minutes ago, theplains said:

From what I understand of LDS theology, God is said to have given Adam and Eve two commandments; they had to disobey
one to fulfil the other.  It was impossible to keep both at the same time. I don't believe this. Adam and Eve had just as much
ability to procreate before the Fall as did the plants and animals.

Jim

You could be right about procreation.  I don't know how that worked.  It seems to me they had some sense of right and wrong before the fall in order for them to make an informed decision.  They apparently understood enough to wait on having relations in obedience to God.  Breaking a commandment was part of the plan.  I don't believe Christ was an afterthought sent to rescue us after the fall.  I believe it was all part of the plan from the beginning.

My philosophy is along the lines that each of us is like Adam and Eve.  We are taught right from wrong either by our family, friends or our conscience (Light of Christ.) Part of our purpose is to make enough mistakes that we experience sin and it's consequences to the point we recognize our need for the Savior, repentance and obedience.  Then we obey because we love God and the safety the Commandments provide.  At least that's my take.  I love Christ, and I love the Commandments.  What do you think?

[Five Solas]

10 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Hi Erik--

I hope you and your family had a nice Thanksgiving!  We spent it up in Victoria with our oldest son and his family.   

I believe God gave us Commandments because He wants us to be happy, not because He wants to punish us for breaking them.  Obedience, in my case, results in increased faith in my Savior and joy in my life.

Regarding your questions:  The following are some I feel I'm making okay progress on, and I expect your answers would be similar:

Thou shalt not kill (I don't get angry often, if at all)

Thou shalt not commit adultery (The only person I have eyes for is my dear wife. Never a thought of anyone else.)

Thou shalt not steal.  Perfect

Thou shalt not bear false witness.  Close.  I may accidentally get roped into telling a white lie.  But I don't think so, and it wouldn't be intentional.

Thou shalt not covet.  Close.  Can't think of anything I want that's beyond my reach.

Honor they Father and they Mother  Close, if not perfect

Bring ye all the tithes to the storehouse perfect.

I need work on these:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  I have to be careful because my love for my wife is so deep.

Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy.  I try, but do not always live up to this one.  With the Lord's help, I will do better.

Adequately loving God and my fellow beings.  I judge people wrongfully.  I say things that are hurtful or can be misunderstood.  I am not always valiant in my testimony of Christ, etc.

Fasting

When I think about it, there are others in the mix I am working on, but with the Lord's help feel like I'm doing okay and will continue to improve throughout my life.  I don't expect perfection in this life, but am enjoying the journey very much.

I like the way Heavenly Father encourages obedience:

For honoring parents:

Honor they Father and they mother that Thy days may be long. It's the first commandment with a promise.  (See Ephesians 6:2-3)

Tithing:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."  Malachi 10:3

Fasting: 

Isaiah 58 has some great promises for fasting and Sabbath keeping:

"10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
            11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
            12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."

I don't know why God gives us promises for obedience.  We certainly don't deserve it.  But He does, so I will try to obey.  When I fall short, I will repent and try again.

Regarding multi threads, no reason to focus on one at a time, other than my question about which commandment is too hard to keep.  Do you see any that are too hard to keep?  If so, let me know because I don't see any that, with practice, I can't learn to keep.  Do you?  If so, which one or ones?  

Out of honest curiosity, my good friend, how are you doing in the commandment department?  I expect pretty good. 🙄

I love Victoria--perfect weekend get-away.  When Kenmore Air offers a special (float plane service from Lake Union to Victoria Harbor), it's an excellent excuse.  (In addition to the breath-taking view, it's less than five minutes to clear customs when you take that option.)  And the exchange rate right now makes Canada extra-sweet (in case the Cubans weren't motive enough).  We did a weekend up in Whistler in September, but stayed local this Thanksgiving. 

I confess I wasn't expecting such a detailed list.  If I were feeling snarky, I'd say it looks like Santa will have to visit you in a big way this year.  Unless he divides your responses by the ~ 613 commandments found in the Old Testament--in which case your offerings look a tad meager.  Hard to say exactly how he'll score you, though.  I haven't found him to be the most reliable/predictable fellow (hopefully he won't notice me telling you this).  But hey, anything's gotta be better than this logic, am I right?

;0)

To be completely honest, I don't think it's going quite so well for me in the commandant department.  I worship a God who isn't concerned with outward appearance with its various acts of compliance and obedience.  He discerns my heart (Hebrews 4:12).  He wants me to reflect the grace He's shown to me--to others.  Even that guy who stole the propane tank out of my B-B-Q grill on the back deck.  Can you believe it?!?  Lugging that thing through the alley and down the street--in hopes of collecting a $25 deposit on the reusable tank.  Just thinking about it makes me want to use inappropriate language. 

And even when I find myself on the cusp of a well-earned boast--He raises the bar.  I don't commit adultery--and He tells me my mere looking can count (Matthew 5:28).  I pay my tithing & just as I'm about to thump my worthy chest--and he gives me the example of the Widow's mite (Mark 12:41-44).  Sometimes I wish I could skip all the head-games and just find a religion where I could be saved "by obedience."  That would be so simple, right?  I'm a pretty disciplined guy and I know I'd knock it right out of the park.  If you have any ideas...

Ah, but it's not all bad.  In fact--when I look in the rear-view mirror and see what I was, I know God is at work.  I can't deny it.  Even in small ways, a what-did-you-do-last-weekend water-cooler conversation at work, and I make a mention of church service, because I'm not shying away from the topic of my Christian faith.  In fact, I welcome any ensuing discussion--and I hope God will make use of it.  In my previous life, I never wanted to discuss religion and risk being judged by people.  A little thing to be sure, but evidence of God's work and an assurance what I have is real (because I know it isn't my natural instinct).  And the fact I realize my anger towards my propane burglar is, well--that anger is what God should have shown to me multiplied many, many times for my rebellion.  But He didn't...

If I don't make a list of my own, I trust you won't hold it against me. 

:0)

--Erik

PS.  A bit of trivia for you: Which of the "10 Commandments" is not repeated as such in the New Testament?  Give up?  It's the commandment to keep the Sabbath Day holy.  The New Testament contains no such admonition--only an admonition not to let the practice be divisive among believers (Colossians 2:16).   

[Meerkat]

7 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I love Victoria--perfect weekend get-away.  When Kenmore Air offers a special (float plane service from Lake Union to Victoria Harbor), it's an excellent excuse.  (In addition to the breath-taking view, it's less than five minutes to clear customs when you take that option.)  And the exchange rate right now makes Canada extra-sweet (in case the Cubans weren't motive enough).  We did a weekend up in Whistler in September, but stayed local this Thanksgiving. 

I confess I wasn't expecting such a detailed list.  If I were feeling snarky, I'd say it looks like Santa will have to visit you in a big way this year.  Unless he divides your responses by the ~ 613 commandments found in the Old Testament--in which case your offerings look a tad meager.  Hard to say exactly how he'll score you, though.  I haven't found him to be the most reliable/predictable fellow (hopefully he won't notice me telling you this).  But hey, anything's gotta be better than this logic, am I right?

;0)

To be completely honest, I don't think it's going quite so well for me in the commandant department.  I worship a God who isn't concerned with outward appearance with its various acts of compliance and obedience.  He discerns my heart (Hebrews 4:12).  He wants me to reflect the grace He's shown to me--to others.  Even that guy who stole the propane tank out of my B-B-Q grill on the back deck.  Can you believe it?!?  Lugging that thing through the alley and down the street--in hopes of collecting a $25 deposit on the reusable tank.  Just thinking about it makes me want to use inappropriate language. 

And even when I find myself on the cusp of a well-earned boast--He raises the bar.  I don't commit adultery--and He tells me my mere looking can count (Matthew 5:28).  I pay my tithing & just as I'm about to thump my worthy chest--and he gives me the example of the Widow's mite (Mark 12:41-44).  Sometimes I wish I could skip all the head-games and just find a religion where I could be saved "by obedience."  That would be so simple, right?  I'm a pretty disciplined guy and I know I'd knock it right out of the park.  If you have any ideas...

Ah, but it's not all bad.  In fact--when I look in the rear-view mirror and see what I was, I know God is at work.  I can't deny it.  Even in small ways, a what-did-you-do-last-weekend water-cooler conversation at work, and I make a mention of church service, because I'm not shying away from the topic of my Christian faith.  In fact, I welcome any ensuing discussion--and I hope God will make use of it.  In my previous life, I never wanted to discuss religion and risk being judged by people.  A little thing to be sure, but evidence of God's work and an assurance what I have is real (because I know it isn't my natural instinct).  And the fact I realize my anger towards my propane burglar is, well--that anger is what God should have shown to me multiplied many, many times for my rebellion.  But He didn't...

If I don't make a list of my own, I trust you won't hold it against me. 

:0)

--Erik

Interesting response.  I can't find anything there to argue with you about.  😠 Maybe next time.  It doesn't matter to me whether my behavior changed because of Christ in me, or if Christ is in me because my behavior changed.  The important thing is the change in behavior.  That's what repentance is all about, right?  A change in behavior from the carnal to the Holy.  No unclean thing can enter there.  While I agree it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us, we use our free will to stay clean by continued repentance and exercising (effort) faith in Jesus Christ.  We don't want to be like a dog going back to it's vomit, do we?

I thought I was being responsive to your question with my list.  I wasn't consciously trying to pat myself on the back (although I should probably acknowledge there was some of that in there. 😈)  By the way, notwithstanding your humility, I'm proud of you for acknowledging your anger toward the propane burgler!  That pride is a bugger, isn't it.

For the sake of discussion, I'd like to address your request to help you find a religion where you could be saved by obedience.  There are three that I can think of.  First, there would be the religion you ascribe to now.  In it, obedience to the Commandments is required.  You obey to the point you recognize you can't quite make it on your own.  You repent, and embrace Christ's obedience to take you the rest of the way there.  Second, you have my religion, which works essentially the same way.  And third, you have the Jewish religion which teaches obedience to the point of changing a person from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.  Obedience will take them a long way there.  The Messiah will take them the rest of the way.

I think each of us do our best and lean on the Savior where we fall short.  Would you agree?

There you have it: Epistle for today.

 

P.S.  Erik, I enjoyed our discussion today.  I received your private message that you were thread banned from this thread and are thus unable to respond to my questions.  Sorry about that.   Maybe I can start another thread with questions I'd like you to address.  From what I see here, we see things in a similar way but one of us (I think it's you, but I was wrong once before) either glosses over or ignores those similarities.  I know you're out of town for about a week.  Check in when you get back and see if I have a thread going.  I hope you have a great week.  Keep smiling!

Edited November 27, 2017 by Meerkat

[theplains]

On 26/11/2017 at 6:01 PM, Meerkat said:

Breaking a commandment was part of the plan.  I don't believe Christ was an afterthought sent to rescue us after the fall.  I believe it was all part of the plan from the beginning.

My philosophy is along the lines that each of us is like Adam and Eve.  We are taught right from wrong either by our family, friends or our conscience (Light of Christ.) Part of our purpose is to make enough mistakes that we experience sin and it's consequences to the point we recognize our need for the Savior, repentance and obedience.  Then we obey because we love God and the safety the Commandments provide.  At least that's my take.  I love Christ, and I love the Commandments.  What do you think?

I believe it was God's permissive will in that he allowed them to sin as he does with all humans who have the
freedom to choose.  But I don't think it is his desired will for any of us to disobey.

Thanks,
Jim

[Meerkat]

16 minutes ago, theplains said:

I believe it was God's permissive will in that he allowed them to sin as he does with all humans who have the
freedom to choose.  But I don't think it is his desired will for any of us to disobey.

Thanks,
Jim

His plan appears to be that we do obey.  We learn by experience, by failing.  He knew we would fail.  Justice required a price be paid.  Heavenly Father sent Jesus Christ to pay for our sins.  I believe that was the plan, not an afterthought. It is through the blood of Christ we are forgiven.  Through repentance, we learn to obey, imo.  If God did not intend us to learn through our own disobedience, there would not have been the fall or need for the Savior.  There would have been no joy because there would have been no sadness.  Is there another way it could have worked?

[Anakin7]

     In response to Changed original question and Five Solas comments and everyone's thoughts think and ponder - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html 

 The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian

Edited November 30, 2017 by Anakin7

[Physics Guy]

Quote

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The famous verse commanding perfection has a "therefore" in it, indicating that it is the conclusion of a prior argument. Furthermore, the "even as" is not just a rhetorical flourish. It means "in the same way as". Jesus is talking about a particular kind of perfection, and to see what kind of perfection that is, you have to look at the previous verses.

The previous verses are about loving enemies. The particular way of being perfect that Jesus mentions is that God gives sun and rain to everyone, good or bad.

So although the perfection command itself is a high moral standard, the attitude which it commands is to have no standards at all, but to just love everyone, regardless of how well they measure up to anything. We are supposed to try to be perfect in this way, but it would be self-contradictory for us to condemn anyone, even ourselves, for failing to achieve this perfection.

It's a bit like Dudeism, the tongue-in-cheek quasi-religion based on the film The Big Lebowski, where the ideal is simply to relax. A Dudeist who is trying too hard to relax is doing it wrong. A Christian who gets judgemental—even on themselves—about perfectionism is likewise doing it wrong.

Quote

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[thesometimesaint]

On 11/26/2017 at 1:58 PM, theplains said:

From what I understand of LDS theology, God is said to have given Adam and Eve two commandments; they had to disobey
one to fulfil the other.  It was impossible to keep both at the same time. I don't believe this. Adam and Eve had just as much
ability to procreate before the Fall as did the plants and animals.

Jim

That assumes Adam and Eve were aware of what disobedience meant. They didn't they were like little children.

[Exiled]

On 11/30/2017 at 11:29 PM, Physics Guy said:

The famous verse commanding perfection has a "therefore" in it, indicating that it is the conclusion of a prior argument. Furthermore, the "even as" is not just a rhetorical flourish. It means "in the same way as". Jesus is talking about a particular kind of perfection, and to see what kind of perfection that is, you have to look at the previous verses.

The previous verses are about loving enemies. The particular way of being perfect that Jesus mentions is that God gives sun and rain to everyone, good or bad.

So although the perfection command itself is a high moral standard, the attitude which it commands is to have no standards at all, but to just love everyone, regardless of how well they measure up to anything. We are supposed to try to be perfect in this way, but it would be self-contradictory for us to condemn anyone, even ourselves, for failing to achieve this perfection.

It's a bit like Dudeism, the tongue-in-cheek quasi-religion based on the film The Big Lebowski, where the ideal is simply to relax. A Dudeist who is trying too hard to relax is doing it wrong. A Christian who gets judgemental—even on themselves—about perfectionism is likewise doing it wrong.

The problem I see is that religion then inserts heaven and hell and defines hell as endless torment or achieving less than the highest degree in the celestial kingdom, as in mormonism.  This is done in the context of not really defining perfection very well (is it just loving everyone or abiding as the dude does?)  Defining perfection is basically impossible as one would have to get inside the mind of deity to discover even how to begin to be perfect.

[Meerkat]

8 minutes ago, Exiled said:

The problem I see is that religion then inserts heaven and hell and defines hell as endless torment or achieving less than the highest degree in the celestial kingdom, as in mormonism.  This is done in the context of not really defining perfection very well (is it just loving everyone or abiding as the dude does?)  Defining perfection is basically impossible as one would have to get inside the mind of deity to discover even how to begin to be perfect.

I'm sure there is some truth to what you say here.  Perfection is probably way beyond what we think.  I appreciate that He gave us Commandments that are not too hard to keep, and pretty much defined perfection "for us," as doing our best to keep them. Think of any of them.  Is there one commandment we don't have what it takes to keep it?  When we fall short and justice is required, Jesus took our stripes and paid our price, on condition of repentance.  That's pretty generous on God's part.  At least, That's been my experience.

[theplains]

On 29/11/2017 at 9:42 PM, Meerkat said:

There would have been no joy because there would have been no sadness.  Is there another way it could have worked?

I believe Adam and Eve experienced joy in their perfect Garden paradise in their worship and fellowship with
God. I don't believe they were emotionless robots before the Fall. Additionally, there are several teachings (from
LDS sources and the Bible) which show Adam and Eve experienced some measure of joy in the Garden before
the Fall.

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-happiness/agency-and-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve

"Adam and Eve were the first of God’s children to come to Earth. They were created in God’s image, with bodies
of flesh and bones. God placed them in the Garden of Eden. Here they did not remember their former existence 
though they were still able to enjoy God’s presence and could have lived forever."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/07/young-adults/gods-plan-for-families?cid=HP_MO_7-27-2015_dPTH_fENSN_xLIDyL2-4_&lang=eng

It said, "Although Adam and Eve enjoyed eternal marriage like our heavenly parents, they could not yet enjoy the full
blessings of family life."

Genesis 1:28 - "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and
subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth
upon the earth."

I don't believe one can be blessed without feeling joy.

Genesis 2:9 - "And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for
food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

The sight of the trees brought pleasure (i.e. joy) to Adam and Eve. 

Genesis 3:6 - "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a
tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with
her; and he did eat."

Even the sight of the forbidden fruit brought pleasure to Eve's eyes.  Pleasure is a measure of joy.

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

20 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

That assumes Adam and Eve were aware of what disobedience meant. They didn't they were like little children.

Do you believe Adam and Eve understood what 'you shall die' and 'be fruitful and multiply' meant before they
ate from the forbidden tree?   Do you believe the animals and plants understood the command to 'be fruitful
and multiply" before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

On 12/1/2017 at 12:29 AM, Physics Guy said:

The famous verse commanding perfection has a "therefore" in it, indicating that it is the conclusion of a prior argument. Furthermore, the "even as" is not just a rhetorical flourish. It means "in the same way as". Jesus is talking about a particular kind of perfection, and to see what kind of perfection that is, you have to look at the previous verses.

The previous verses are about loving enemies. The particular way of being perfect that Jesus mentions is that God gives sun and rain to everyone, good or bad.

So although the perfection command itself is a high moral standard, the attitude which it commands is to have no standards at all, but to just love everyone, regardless of how well they measure up to anything. We are supposed to try to be perfect in this way, but it would be self-contradictory for us to condemn anyone, even ourselves, for failing to achieve this perfection.

It's a bit like Dudeism, the tongue-in-cheek quasi-religion based on the film The Big Lebowski, where the ideal is simply to relax. A Dudeist who is trying too hard to relax is doing it wrong. A Christian who gets judgemental—even on themselves—about perfectionism is likewise doing it wrong.

I wouldn't compare Dudeism and Christianity directly, but in this one narrow way there is a similarity. 

Last week, I raised my hand to the inquiry of whether anyone is a perfectionist. I think I was the only one, yet Utah is quite high the anxiety and depression list. This seems to be because many LDS members feel inadequate. The feel they are not doing enough. I think this comes from a false idea that we must do it all. We must individually save the world. Yeshua did not feed all the poor of the world. No one of us can be everything to everyone in the world. But we can do good to those we come in contact with in our lives, and help them to the best of our ability.  Yeshua's law has more to do with intent than works. If our intent is perfect, it doesn't matter so much if we encounter failure in our effort. Further, to the extent we do fail or sin, Yeshua is there to forgive our failure and render us perfect with humble repentance. Thus, I do not worry about comparing myself to other members of the Church. I do what I can, and try to help where my skills I believe will have the most impact - and for me that seems to be research and writing, although so far I would describe it more as a rough stone just getting its corners chopped off, LOL. So, I hear and appreciate what you are saying, but think it important that we not forget that we are perfected in Christ and not by any efforts of our own.

[Exiled]

22 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I'm sure there is some truth to what you say here.  Perfection is probably way beyond what we think.  I appreciate that He gave us Commandments that are not too hard to keep, and pretty much defined perfection "for us," as doing our best to keep them. Think of any of them.  Is there one commandment we don't have what it takes to keep it?  When we fall short and justice is required, Jesus took our stripes and paid our price, on condition of repentance.  That's pretty generous on God's part.  At least, That's been my experience.

For me, the off-putting part of the church is how involved and controlling it wants to be in your life.  It has to be involved in everything, including one's thoughts.  One has to always wear garments as a constant reminder to be loyal and obedient.  There are periodic obedience interviews, time demands, etc.  I grew to view the church as my friend's snowmobiling experience.  He went with a friend and his friend's family.  The dad made them all follow in a straight line and wouldn't allow them to deviate from the path, even though others (surely most if not all were members as this happened around Kamas, Utah) were out in the powder having fun.  He said it was a boring trip because of being forced down a certain path when it was unnecessary to force them to stay on the path.  The dad seemingly wanted to create unnecessary rules and didn't want the young men to go out and enjoy themselves with the other young men in the powder.  The garments, the nonsensical rules about coke (is it ok or not?)  Don't drink coffee but energy drinks are fine.  These seem to be part of the unnecessary hoops one needs to go through solely to prove obedience.  Do think justice is required if one doesn't wear their garments for a month?  Does that make one unclean?  It seems to me that the church is too legalistic, too controlling in its zeal to save everyone.

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

For me, the off-putting part of the church is how involved and controlling it wants to be in your life.  It has to be involved in everything, including one's thoughts.  One has to always wear garments as a constant reminder to be loyal and obedient.  There are periodic obedience interviews, time demands, etc.  I grew to view the church as my friend's snowmobiling experience.  He went with a friend and his friend's family.  The dad made them all follow in a straight line and wouldn't allow them to deviate from the path, even though others (surely most if not all were members as this happened around Kamas, Utah) were out in the powder having fun.  He said it was a boring trip because of being forced down a certain path when it was unnecessary to force them to stay on the path.  The dad seemingly wanted to create unnecessary rules and didn't want the young men to go out and enjoy themselves with the other young men in the powder.  The garments, the nonsensical rules about coke (is it ok or not?)  Don't drink coffee but energy drinks are fine.  These seem to be part of the unnecessary hoops one needs to go through solely to prove obedience.  Do think justice is required if one doesn't wear their garments for a month?  Does that make one unclean?  It seems to me that the church is too legalistic, too controlling in its zeal to save everyone.

I think in many ways, that's a fair assessment.  I think a more apt approach would be Joseph Smith's statement "I teach them correct principles, and let them govern themselves."  The control that you speak of is off putting.  I think that the principles of the 
Gospel are simple enough that people can experiment with them and come to their own conclusions, and decide for themselves how they want to live.  It would be great if people could make their decisions, good or bad, and learn from their consequences as opposed to learning from peer pressure, shaming, shunning, etc.  The Amish practice of Rumspringa makes a certain amount of sense to me.  Their youth go out into the world and, based on their experience, decide whether they want to remain faithful Amish.  Their families, if I am not mistaken, continue to show love to their children as they sort out their lives.  

Satan had a plan, which involved forcing people back regardless of their worthiness.  I think some of us, maybe many, have taken it a step further in the Church and tried to run our families (or wards or organizations) according to that plan by forcing worthiness and activities that may have nothing to do with salvation.  I don't think there was any malice intent necessarily.  I think a lot of it goes back to people wanting to magnify their callings as they place layers upon layers of activities and rules on the members.  That is easy to do because of the inertia of past generations.  We live in a new, busier time.  People need down time, family time, etc.  In the past,  forcing obedience has had the same effect as Satan's plan, and we are seeing some members leaving, unfortunately, who may feel hemmed in.  I know some who have felt peer pressure to go on missions or obtain their Eagle Scout, etc.  I think leaders in the Church are learning line upon line, as Christ did, and are making adjustments according to the inspiration they are receiving.  Teaching in the Savior's Way is one such example.  Classes, councils and even families are becoming more open to discussion of just about any topic.  When people feel they can discuss what is on their minds without being judged or humiliated for it, our children will grow up better adjusted and free to decide what church activity means to them.  I think this will result in less active or people who choose to leave the Church, feeling loved by family and other members, and those who choose to be active making a completely informed decision to do so.  Elder Richard G. Scott said: "no enduring improvement can occur without righteous exercise of agency. Do not attempt to override agency. The Lord himself would not do that.  Forced obedience yields no blessings."  (see D&C 58:26–33).

I love the Gospel.  I am what you would call a "True Believer."  I can also see where I gave up my own agency decades ago in an interest to be obedient.  I'm not complaining.  That is my offering on the alter.  I think I would have been a better husband, father, member and friend earlier on had that decision been more fully informed.  I wish my children would have been more fully informed at a younger age.  We learn as we grow, and it's all good in my opinion.  I believe that, in or out of the Church, people can be good, kind and blessed.  I also believe that eventually every person who seeks to dwell in that Celestial Society will need certain sacred ordinances to be performed by authority from God that is vested in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.  

I think we can have serious conversations about topics like this and be pleasant as you have been.  Thank you for your candid comments.  They make for an interesting discussion.  

Edited December 3, 2017 by Meerkat

[Exiled]

34 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I think in many ways, that's a fair assessment.  I think a more apt approach would be Joseph Smith's statement "I teach them correct principles, and let them govern themselves."  The control that you speak of is off putting.  I think that the principles of the 
Gospel are simple enough that people can experiment with them and come to their own conclusions, and decide for themselves how they want to live.  It would be great if people could make their decisions, good or bad, and learn from their consequences as opposed to learning from peer pressure, shaming, shunning, etc.  The Amish practice of Rumspringa makes a certain amount of sense to me.  Their youth go out into the world and, based on their experience, decide whether they want to remain faithful Amish.  Their families, if I am not mistaken, continue to show love to their children as they sort out their lives.  

Satan had a plan, which involved forcing people back regardless of their worthiness.  I think some of us, maybe many, have taken it a step further in the Church and tried to run our families (or wards or organizations) according to that plan by forcing worthiness and activities that may have nothing to do with salvation.  I don't think there was any malice intent necessarily.  I think a lot of it goes back to people wanting to magnify their callings as they place layers upon layers of activities and rules on the members.  That is easy to do because of the inertia of past generations.  We live in a new, busier time.  People need down time, family time, etc.  In the past,  forcing obedience has had the same effect as Satan's plan, and we are seeing an unfortunate exodus of members who feel hemmed in.  They feel peer pressure to go on missions or obtain their Eagle Scout, etc.  I think leaders in the Church are learning line upon line, as Christ did, and are making adjustments according to the inspiration they are receiving.  Teaching in the Savior's Way is one such example.  Classes, councils and even families are becoming more open to discussion of just about any topic.  When people feel they can discuss what is on their minds without being judged or humiliated for it, our children will grow up better adjusted and free to decide what church activity means to them.  I think this will result in less active or people who choose to leave the Church, feeling loved by family and other members, and those who choose to be active making a completely informed decision to do so.  Elder Richard G. Scott said: "no enduring improvement can occur without righteous exercise of agency. Do not attempt to override agency. The Lord himself would not do that.  Forced obedience yields no blessings."  (see D&C 58:26–33).

I love the Gospel.  I am what you would call a "True Believer."  I can also see where I gave up my own agency decades ago in an interest to be obedient.  I'm not complaining.  That is my offering on the alter.  I think I would have been a better husband, father, member and friend earlier on had that decision been more fully informed.  I wish my children would have been more fully informed at a younger age.  We learn as we grow, and it's all good in my opinion.  I believe that, in or out of the Church, people can be good, kind and blessed.  I also believe that eventually every person who seeks to dwell in that Celestial Society will need certain sacred ordinances to be performed by authority from God that is vested in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.  

I think we can have serious conversations about topics like this and be pleasant as you have been.  Thank you for your candid comments.  They make for an interesting discussion.  

I'm past my anger stage I think.  Anyway, I agree that the over-monitoring is probably not intentional.  The church is run as a business because it is full of business leaders.  They want data and programs and proof of how the programs are working.  So, I can see where there would be a tendency to overuse it to the point of over-monitoring.  I guess I am moving to a place where I don't want to give up my choices for obedience sake.  That is not to say that following rules is wrong.  Certainly there needs to be rules and order in society.  My take is that maybe a few less rules and a little more self-governance is better for me.

[Meerkat]

19 hours ago, Exiled said:

I'm past my anger stage I think.  Anyway, I agree that the over-monitoring is probably not intentional.  The church is run as a business because it is full of business leaders.  They want data and programs and proof of how the programs are working.  So, I can see where there would be a tendency to overuse it to the point of over-monitoring.  I guess I am moving to a place where I don't want to give up my choices for obedience sake.  That is not to say that following rules is wrong.  Certainly there needs to be rules and order in society.  My take is that maybe a few less rules and a little more self-governance is better for me.

I agree with not wanting to give up my choices for obedience sake.  The accommodation I have reached after many years of my own choosing is that I now freely choose to obey because I am happier with the results.  So I am now choosing to obey, not for obedience sake, but for myself and the benefits I gain from those choices.

All the very reasonable and demonstrable failings you outlined were due to the failings of men-- people like you and me.  I refer back to Joseph Smith's words "I teach them correct principles, and let them govern themselves."  He also said "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."  D&C 121:39  "Almost all" has most certainly referred to me at times in leadership positions.  It has also referred to me in my position as husband and father, to my great regret.  It is a constant battle to do the right thing without causing harm to others.  I hope and pray that the Savior will work it all out in the judgment. 

Maybe that is why Christ told us "My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened."  (I don't like to be afflicted and sorely chastened, if I can avoid it.)  He went on to say, as if it were a way to bring relief to this problem, "Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.  I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."  D&C 64:8-10   I also believe that the Lord doesn't ask us to do things He isn't willing to do Himself.  

The bottom line for me has been reaching a point in my life where I can set personal boundaries and make my own decisions.  If the phone rings, I don't have to answer it.  I can set my priorities.  "This is my family time.  I have an appointment with my wife or children."  Or "My plate is full enough."  There is no way I can stay on top of all that is required of me.  Therefore, I can set my own priorities and determine what is good, better and best for me.  Those are my boundaries.  Of course, it is still hard not to be affected by social pressure and feeling like I ought to do everything that people ask of me.  But we are not supermen and superwomen.  We are mere mortals.  We must set our own boundaries and decide what is most important.  

You have set up a great statement or question that is very deep, and goes to the heart of why we live the Gospel.  You said "I guess I am moving to a place where I don't want to give up my choices for obedience sake."  That is a wonderful statement, and there is much to explore in it.  Thank you for that!

Edited December 4, 2017 by Meerkat

[Exiled]

40 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with not wanting to give up my choices for obedience sake.  The accommodation I have reached after many years of my own choosing is that I now freely choose to obey because I am happier with the results.  So I am now choosing to obey, not for obedience sake, but for myself and the benefits I gain from those choices.

All the very reasonable and demonstrable failings you outlined were due to the failings of men-- people like you and me.  I refer back to Joseph Smith's words "I teach them correct principles, and let them govern themselves."  He also said "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."  D&C 121:39  "Almost all" has most certainly referred to me at times in leadership positions.  It has also referred to me in my position as husband and father, to my great regret.  It is a constant battle to do the right thing without causing harm to others.  I hope and pray that the Savior will work it all out in the judgment. 

Maybe that is why Christ told us "My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened."  (I don't like to be afflicted and sorely chastened, if I can avoid it.)  He went on to say, as if it were a way to bring relief to this problem, "Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.  I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."  D&C 64:8-10   I also believe that the Lord doesn't ask us to do things He isn't willing to do Himself.  

The bottom line for me has been reaching a point in my life where I can set personal boundaries and make my own decisions.  If the phone rings, I don't have to answer it.  I can set my priorities.  "This is my family time.  I have an appointment with my wife or children."  Or "My plate is full enough."  There is no way I can stay on top of all that is required of me.  Therefore, I can set my own priorities and determine what is good, better and best for me.  Those are my boundaries.  Of course, it is still hard not to be affected by social pressure and feeling like I ought to do everything that people ask of me.  But we are not supermen and superwomen.  We are mere mortals.  We must set our own boundaries and decide what is most important.  

You have set up a great statement or question that is very deep, and goes to the heart of why we live the Gospel.  You said "I guess I am moving to a place where I don't want to give up my choices for obedience sake."  That is a wonderful statement, and there is much to explore in it.  Thank you for that!

I think it seems odd at first blush that one would have to surrender some of their agency for obedience. Nevertheless, one cannot just do whatever. Certain rules are required by society and are necessary. I guess where is the line drawn? I believe the correct side of the line is where we are allowed as much autonomy over ourselves and our decisions as possible. I like the concept of coming here to learn and improve. We come into this world as infants, totally dependent, and then mature, hopefully into adults, making our own autonomous decisions without training wheels. For me, organizations should respect this autonomy. This is why I regret how E. Poelman's talk was changed back in the 80's. I liked the concept of a shepherd church and not an authoritarian parental church.

[pogi]

On 12/1/2017 at 12:29 AM, Physics Guy said:

The famous verse commanding perfection has a "therefore" in it, indicating that it is the conclusion of a prior argument. Furthermore, the "even as" is not just a rhetorical flourish. It means "in the same way as". Jesus is talking about a particular kind of perfection, and to see what kind of perfection that is, you have to look at the previous verses.

The previous verses are about loving enemies. The particular way of being perfect that Jesus mentions is that God gives sun and rain to everyone, good or bad.

So although the perfection command itself is a high moral standard, the attitude which it commands is to have no standards at all, but to just love everyone, regardless of how well they measure up to anything. We are supposed to try to be perfect in this way, but it would be self-contradictory for us to condemn anyone, even ourselves, for failing to achieve this perfection.

It's a bit like Dudeism, the tongue-in-cheek quasi-religion based on the film The Big Lebowski, where the ideal is simply to relax. A Dudeist who is trying too hard to relax is doing it wrong. A Christian who gets judgemental—even on themselves—about perfectionism is likewise doing it wrong.

I appreciate your insight into that verse and taking it in context.  The bold and underlined section is particularly insightful. Such condemnation only leads to toxic shame. In fact, Romans 14:22 states, "happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."  Now, there is a difference between a healthy sense of guilt and toxic shame born from self condemnation.  The former inspires us to seek reconciliation with God and the later inspires us to hide from God in shame, as Adam in Eden. 

I appreciate the context you put this in:

Quote

 

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect

 

The context to me states, be ye therefore perfect in love, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect in love.  What is the manifestation of a perfect love?  Perfect obedience.  All of the law and the prophets hang on the command to love. Therefore, if we are perfect in love, the manifestation will be perfectly obedience to all of the law and the prophets (commandments) that are born in love and hang on love.   The more perfect our love, the more perfect our obedience.  That is how it works. 

We should not condemn ourselves, or anyone else, for imperfect obedience and therefore imperfect love.  The work of perfection is a process.  It is something that we hope to eventually attain.  

[Meerkat]

8 hours ago, Exiled said:

I think it seems odd at first blush that one would have to surrender some of their agency for obedience. Nevertheless, one cannot just do whatever. Certain rules are required by society and are necessary. I guess where is the line drawn? I believe the correct side of the line is where we are allowed as much autonomy over ourselves and our decisions as possible. I like the concept of coming here to learn and improve. We come into this world as infants, totally dependent, and then mature, hopefully into adults, making our own autonomous decisions without training wheels. For me, organizations should respect this autonomy. This is why I regret how E. Poelman's talk was changed back in the 80's. I liked the concept of a shepherd church and not an authoritarian parental church.

Thanks for the reference to Elder Poelman's talk.  Here is link to the before and after: 

The original version resonates with me.  It defines the Gospel as I am embracing it.  I don't believe his remarks would be censored today because Elder Poelman was merely restating the remarks of other prophets in his own words: 

Joseph Smith, quoted by John Taylor, in the Millennial Star 15 Nov. 1851, p. 339 stated "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Brigham Young stated in  volume 9 or 10 of the Journal of Discourses, page 150 (from a copy of the page found in books.google.com)

"I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him.  I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way.  Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.  This has been my exhortation continually."

And more recently from President Uchrdorf in his October, 2013 Conference talk "Come, Join with Us":

"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.
                I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.
                In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”

These comments ALL reflect my own faith and belief.  They protect our right to doubt, to question, and our duty to use our agency and verify everything we hear from our leaders and others through prayer, the Holy Ghost and our own experience, in my opinion.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Meerkat

[Exiled]

7 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Thanks for the reference to Elder Poelman's talk.  Here is link to the before and after: 

The original version resonates with me.  It defines the Gospel as I am embracing it.  I don't believe his remarks would be censored today because Elder Poelman was merely restating the remarks of other prophets in his own words: 

Joseph Smith, quoted by John Taylor, in the Millennial Star 15 Nov. 1851, p. 339 stated "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Brigham Young stated in  volume 9 or 10 of the Journal of Discourses, page 150 (from a copy of the page found in books.google.com)

"I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him.  I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way.  Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.  This has been my exhortation continually."

And more recently from President Uchrdorf in his October, 2013 Conference talk "Come, Join with Us":

"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.
                I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.
                In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”

These comments ALL reflect my own faith and belief.  They protect our right to doubt, to question, and our duty to use our agency and verify everything we hear from our leaders and others through prayer, the Holy Ghost and our own experience, in my opinion.

Elder Poelman was a good man.  He was just a really nice guy and I was happy to have known him.