JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 I would like to have a little discussion on walking the line of faith between trusting God and incorrectly assuming God will do something. I'll put a few scriptures for both sides of the line. What I'd like to discuss is where we think the middle ground lies, and how we go about finding it. I have had numerous things in my life that I consider miracles, the hand of God revealed. And like everyone else I have had prayers that seemingly go unanswered.Trust God For The Miracle Ether 12:12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith. D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise. Moroni 7:33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. Incorrectly Assuming The Right To A Miracle Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 2 Nephi 4:35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; I don't want to debate why some people are healed and some aren't, or some prayers are answered and some aren't. I want to know where the line between trusting God in faith and falsely assuming something not promised would be found? Where is the middle ground between faith and hubris? How do we ensure in our exercise of faith that we are trusting God but not expecting him to provide a miracle that shouldn't happen.
HappyJackWagon Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 As Elder Bednar has stated, it requires greater faith NOT to be healed. Likewise, I suppose an argument could be made that it requires greater faith not to receive miracles. If that's the case, the world seems to be a very faithful place. https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-bednar-counsels-those-facing-adversity-to-shrink-not?lang=eng 1
Jeanne Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 I read this OP twice..thinking about things. I have a feeling that this thread will eat me up somehow. But this is a good one. The scripture.."thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God"..is a tough one because in a way..it takes away faith even after many works. Thanks for this in advance.
Calm Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: As Elder Bednar has stated, it requires greater faith NOT to be healed. Likewise, I suppose an argument could be made that it requires greater faith not to receive miracles. I think you are leaving off the condition of greater faith not to be healed or not to receive miracles and still maintain one's faith. 2
hope_for_things Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I don't want to debate why some people are healed and some aren't, or some prayers are answered and some aren't. I want to know where the line between trusting God in faith and falsely assuming something not promised would be found? Where is the middle ground between faith and hubris? Personally, this is what I believe, as articulated in Matthew 5:45 Quote That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Life happens to us, regardless of how much faith we exercise in God. It falls on both sides. Faith is not a principle that we exercise to get us stuff, or to give us God's blessings. Faith is a principle we exercise to understand more about ourselves, to test our abilities and to explore our talents and limitations. Its not about earning a blessing through faith for me, there is nothing I can do to earn a special blessing from God. Its about trusting that as I exercise faith in something that I will better understand what I'm capable of, what the limits of my abilities are, how this principle works and who it impacts, whether it bears good fruit or not. This is why I exercise faith. Hubris is the act of believing that I deserve special treatment, or that I"m immune to the consequences of my actions, or that God has privileged my position or endorsed my decision making in a way that makes me above scrutiny, independent of reason or the impacts of my decision making. Hubris is a type of pride. Edited October 2, 2017 by hope_for_things 2
Robert F. Smith Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: ......................................... I don't want to debate why some people are healed and some aren't, or some prayers are answered and some aren't. I want to know where the line between trusting God in faith and falsely assuming something not promised would be found? Where is the middle ground between faith and hubris? How do we ensure in our exercise of faith that we are trusting God but not expecting him to provide a miracle that shouldn't happen. One of the Brethren dealt with that question during Conference, but I can't recall which one.
hope_for_things Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: As Elder Bednar has stated, it requires greater faith NOT to be healed. Likewise, I suppose an argument could be made that it requires greater faith not to receive miracles. If that's the case, the world seems to be a very faithful place. https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-bednar-counsels-those-facing-adversity-to-shrink-not?lang=eng If you haven't listened to the Radio Free Mormon podcast on this subject yet, its a fun one.
rongo Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: How do we ensure in our exercise of faith that we are trusting God but not expecting him to provide a miracle that shouldn't happen. I think that God "winks at our ignorance." When sincerely ask (beg, really. When we are seeking a miracle, we feel like we're in dire straits), and truly in our hearts accept whatever outcome, I don't think it is wrong or "amiss" to ask for them. In a time like that, the last thing in the world we should be worried about is whether we are asking for something that shouldn't happen. Pray fervently! This is very different from sign-seeking, or staking our future testimony on the outcome of this particular instance. I am very grateful that I feel I can ask my Father for miracles when I feel I really need them. And I have experienced some. We don't always get them, and sometimes out prayers are wisely not answered, but I don't know what I would do if I felt handcuffed and hamstrung in a crisis to not ask for the wrong thing. Elder Rasband's talk also factors in here. Sometimes, negative outcomes are what we need and what God has in store for us. We can't tell this at the time, and need to rely on faith. 1
clarkgoble Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 My personal view is that faith requires a degree of information to be real faith. Faith to be healed is also faith to find out if you should be healed. 3
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2017 Author Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Life happens to us, regardless of how much faith we exercise in God. It falls on both sides. Faith is not a principle that we exercise to get us stuff, or to give us God's blessings. I don't believe this. It contradicts too many teachings and scriptures, not to mention my own experience. But as to the "get us stuff", that is directly related to the topic I am wanting to discuss. I have real issues with the "law of attraction" type of faith, but I also believe God expects us to exercise faith to receive what we need from him. Finding the line to walk between law of attraction (assume you will be blessed and you will) and faith in God's provision (trust God to provide but do your part) is another version of the topic of the thread. Edited October 2, 2017 by JLHPROF 1
bluebell Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 36 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: As Elder Bednar has stated, it requires greater faith NOT to be healed. Likewise, I suppose an argument could be made that it requires greater faith not to receive miracles. If that's the case, the world seems to be a very faithful place. https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-bednar-counsels-those-facing-adversity-to-shrink-not?lang=eng I think that the implication is that it takes greater faith not to healed and still retain a belief in a God who can heal (and likewise, it takes greater faith not to receive miracles and still believe in a God of miracles). 4
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2017 Author Posted October 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: My personal view is that faith requires a degree of information to be real faith. Faith to be healed is also faith to find out if you should be healed. Agreed. Faith has always had the requirement of effort attached.
hope_for_things Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I don't believe this. It contradicts too many teachings and scriptures. It makes the most sense to me, and is supported by Matt 5:45 as well as my observations of history and my life experiences. It also is the only fitting explanation to the problem of evil that I've found any level of comfort in.
clarkgoble Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Agreed. Faith has always had the requirement of effort attached. I think it's more than that. I think we've unfortunately picked up culturally a lot of the view of faith that developed in traditional Christianity. That is a blind faith which if believe in propositions with no reason. I think faith properly conceived is inexorably wrapped up with revelation. To have faith is to have faith in God which is to know God and have faith in what he said. But to know what he said in a particular requires personal revelation. That is to have faith to be healed is to have faith that God will heal you. But the logical requirement for that are reasons to believe God will heal you. That is some communication from God that he intends to heal you and you trust in that communication from God. What people often call faith really is just hoping or worse, wishful thinking. If I have faith that God will heal me in some particular without knowing God wants that then really I'm just blindly hoping he'll do it. 1
The Nehor Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) There is the kind of dismissive prayer that grudgingly asks for a miracle almost daring God to do it but not expecting it. A kind of sign-seeking blackmail. This is bad. There is genuinely faithless prayer that expects no answer. This is bad. There is arrogant demanding prayer. This is bad. There is earnest desperate pleading. This can be good or bad if it slips over to demanding. There is a simple child like request for help not knowing what to expect. This is good. There is hopeful prayer where the faith is not strong but you wish it were. This is better. There is pleading for relief or a miracle and knowing God can grant it but enacting your own diminished version of Gethsemane accepting that the Lord will grant it or not and you will still follow to either merciful deliverance or into the gaping jaws of hell, whatever is required. This is best. Edited October 2, 2017 by The Nehor 3
pogi Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: How do we ensure in our exercise of faith that we are trusting God but not expecting him to provide a miracle that shouldn't happen. God has not promised miracles according to our will, but according to His, as the scriptures you sited state: Moroni 7:33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. 2 Nephi 4:35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; I never "expect" a miracle, because I don't claim perfect knowledge of God's will. I hope for miracles. Faith is based in hope and not a perfect knowledge. The only thing that we should expect is for God to do His will, and not ours. Whenever I ask for miracles, I always pray like this, "be it done according to thy will, and if it be not thy will, help me understand and accept thy will." 3
CV75 Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: I would like to have a little discussion on walking the line of faith between trusting God and incorrectly assuming God will do something. I'll put a few scriptures for both sides of the line. What I'd like to discuss is where we think the middle ground lies, and how we go about finding it. I have had numerous things in my life that I consider miracles, the hand of God revealed. And like everyone else I have had prayers that seemingly go unanswered.Trust God For The Miracle Ether 12:12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith. D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise. Moroni 7:33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. Incorrectly Assuming The Right To A Miracle Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 2 Nephi 4:35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; I don't want to debate why some people are healed and some aren't, or some prayers are answered and some aren't. I want to know where the line between trusting God in faith and falsely assuming something not promised would be found? Where is the middle ground between faith and hubris? How do we ensure in our exercise of faith that we are trusting God but not expecting him to provide a miracle that shouldn't happen. I think Moroni 7:33 and 2 Nephi 4:35 both acknowledge God’s will in fulfilling the object of faith which He presents to us, and not that object which He has not presented but which we often imagine in our lack of faith. If He didn’t promise it, we cannot have faith in it, and so the latter represents a false assumption on our part. 1
JLHPROF Posted October 2, 2017 Author Posted October 2, 2017 58 minutes ago, pogi said: God has not promised miracles according to our will, but according to His, as the scriptures you sited state: Moroni 7:33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. 2 Nephi 4:35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; I never "expect" a miracle, because I don't claim perfect knowledge of God's will. I hope for miracles. Faith is based in hope and not a perfect knowledge. The only thing that we should expect is for God to do His will, and not ours. Whenever I ask for miracles, I always pray like this, "be it done according to thy will, and if it be not thy will, help me understand and accept thy will." I agree. But what about the scriptures that state the Lord is bound to bless when we exercise faith and follow his commands? Scripture is full of such promises. (I'm sure Joseph taught something about not putting caveats on our requests for blessings - I'll have to try and find it). I'm looking at the pendulum swing here. Too far one way and we don't exercise faith to receive a blessing. Too far one way and our faith is put towards something amiss.
strappinglad Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 I am a bit confused about faith. In Matt 17:20 Jesus says that the faith of a grain of mustard seed is sufficient to move mountains and with sufficient faith nothing would be impossible. But, it is said that Christ Himself ( who I assume had sufficient faith ) could do no miracles in a city because of a lack of the PEOPLE's faith. We have the conversation between Alma and Amulek about saving the people from the fire . Alma says he was constrained by the Spirit to not interfere even though they had the power. 1
Glenn101 Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 2 hours ago, bluebell said: I think that the implication is that it takes greater faith not to healed and still retain a belief in a God who can heal (and likewise, it takes greater faith not to receive miracles and still believe in a God of miracles). Your comment reminded me of the members of the Church after they were run out of New York, Ohio, Missouri, and finally Nauvoo to begin a long and uncertain trek to land that was mostly known by word of mouth. After all the afflictions they had endured, and after many fervent prayers without God intervening on their behalf, so many still retained their faith and made that trek. I have not been put to near that level of trials and tribulations and wonder how I would have fared had I been put into those situations over and over. Glenn 2
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 7 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I would like to have a little discussion on walking the line of faith between trusting God and incorrectly assuming God will do something. Forget about being bewitched by the language of the scriptures. Think about it. What choice do you have but to trust God? You do the best you can and turn over the rest to him. What's to choose?
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 6 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I don't believe this. It contradicts too many teachings and scriptures, not to mention my own experience. But as to the "get us stuff", that is directly related to the topic I am wanting to discuss. I have real issues with the "law of attraction" type of faith, but I also believe God expects us to exercise faith to receive what we need from him. Finding the line to walk between law of attraction (assume you will be blessed and you will) and faith in God's provision (trust God to provide but do your part) is another version of the topic of the thread. Act as if everything depends on you and pray as if everything depends on God and let him decide.
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 5 hours ago, pogi said: God has not promised miracles according to our will, but according to His, as the scriptures you sited state: Moroni 7:33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. 2 Nephi 4:35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; I never "expect" a miracle, because I don't claim perfect knowledge of God's will. I hope for miracles. Faith is based in hope and not a perfect knowledge. The only thing that we should expect is for God to do His will, and not ours. Whenever I ask for miracles, I always pray like this, "be it done according to thy will, and if it be not thy will, help me understand and accept thy will." That's it!
CV75 Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 @JLHPROF -- another way to look at it, simplifying your title: the line between exercising faith and exercising pride, or the line between faith and pride. That line would be humility, or the "Thy will be done" attitude. Now because God often meets us where we are, that "line" may well be a grace-infused continuum, and there may well be a line that He does not cross that we come to comprehend over time.
smac97 Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I would like to have a little discussion on walking the line of faith between trusting God and incorrectly assuming God will do something. ... I want to know where the line between trusting God in faith and falsely assuming something not promised would be found? Where is the middle ground between faith and hubris? How do we ensure in our exercise of faith that we are trusting God but not expecting him to provide a miracle that shouldn't happen. Perhaps "the line" lies in the sublimation of one's will to that of God's. We can do our best to align our will with God's, but if they are not congruous, then the former is subordinated to the latter. We can do our best to made decisions in life which we understand/hope to conform to God's will, with the caveat that we may be wrong, and that we may need to change our course of conduct based on further light and knowledge. I can hope for what we picture to be "a miracle," or for some other type of divine intervention, with the caveat that whether it happens is based on God's will, not ours. Thanks, -Smac
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