stemelbow Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I would like to have a little discussion on walking the line of faith between trusting God and incorrectly assuming God will do something. I'll put a few scriptures for both sides of the line. What I'd like to discuss is where we think the middle ground lies, and how we go about finding it. I have had numerous things in my life that I consider miracles, the hand of God revealed. And like everyone else I have had prayers that seemingly go unanswered.Trust God For The Miracle Ether 12:12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith. Does this then suggest that if we have faith in God that he'll provide a miracle? That He'll show himself to us? Are we talking the type of miracle wherein people soften their hearts and decide to do something good? Or the type of miracle where the prison walls are broken and we walk away unharmed from the rubble? 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise. Not sure this is in reference to miracles. I think this is about forgiving of sins. 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Moroni 7:33 And Christ hath said: If ye will have faith in me ye shall have power to do whatsoever thing is expedient in me. Well, ok. What is expedient in Him? This too seems to be talking about forgiveness and repentence moreso than miracles. Of course it could be we are defining miracles as feeling sorrow and changing our ways, or wanting to. 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Incorrectly Assuming The Right To A Miracle Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Is there miracle in the devil taking him up to the pinnacle of the temple? If so, is God the designer of miracles or the devil? 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. But the miracle was wrought--transporting Jesus to a pointed spire. 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: 2 Nephi 4:35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; God giving is a miracle? 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I don't want to debate why some people are healed and some aren't, or some prayers are answered and some aren't. I want to know where the line between trusting God in faith and falsely assuming something not promised would be found? Where is the middle ground between faith and hubris? How do we ensure in our exercise of faith that we are trusting God but not expecting him to provide a miracle that shouldn't happen. I don't know there's any line to draw at all.
pogi Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 14 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I agree. But what about the scriptures that state the Lord is bound to bless when we exercise faith and follow his commands? Scripture is full of such promises. When it comes to covenants, we do know the mind and will of the Lord and can expect those promised blessings as we fulfill our end of the covenant. Those promised blessings are always very specific, such as in the sacramental prayer (covenant) - we will have his spirit to be with us. There is no promise, that I am aware of, that the Lord is bound to bless us with whatever miracle we want when we exercise faith and follow his commands. 14 hours ago, JLHPROF said: (I'm sure Joseph taught something about not putting caveats on our requests for blessings - I'll have to try and find it). I'd be curious to read that quote. 14 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I'm looking at the pendulum swing here. Too far one way and we don't exercise faith to receive a blessing. Too far one way and our faith is put towards something amiss. 1) Expect what is promised to us 2) Expect what is not promised to us The pendulum swings between those two points.
Jeanne Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 8:36 AM, pogi said: When it comes to covenants, we do know the mind and will of the Lord and can expect those promised blessings as we fulfill our end of the covenant. Those promised blessings are always very specific, such as in the sacramental prayer (covenant) - we will have his spirit to be with us. There is no promise, that I am aware of, that the Lord is bound to bless us with whatever miracle we want when we exercise faith and follow his commands. I'd be curious to read that quote. 1) Expect what is promised to us 2) Expect what is not promised to us The pendulum swings between those two points. Question about promises....the promise given for tithes...blessings that would unfold. I have a friend was a true believer and believed very much in law of tithing and sacrifice for others...he lost everything...his business..his home..everything. He sought the Lord in prayer and still paid tithing faithfully..where were the promises then? It was not so much monetary loss..but the loss of believing in the promise. Though he lost everything and struggled...his biggest concern was not being able to help others.
pogi Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: Question about promises....the promise given for tithes...blessings that would unfold. I have a friend was a true believer and believed very much in law of tithing and sacrifice for others...he lost everything...his business..his home..everything. He sought the Lord in prayer and still paid tithing faithfully..where were the promises then? It was not so much monetary loss..but the loss of believing in the promise. Though he lost everything and struggled...his biggest concern was not being able to help others. There is no promise of monetary reward for paying tithing.There is no promise that we will not see hard times. I have heard it said from prophets that if we pay an honest tithe that we will not go without the necessities of life. I don't think that is scriptural, but I have no reason to doubt it either, as I have never seen a full tithe payer go without the necessities for life The only non-ambiguous promised blessing for paying tithing that I am aware of is that we will not burn at his coming. The whole "open the windows of heaven..." promise could be a spiritual blessing for consistent faithful tithe paying, even in hard times. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 3:36 PM, Robert F. Smith said: One of the Brethren dealt with that question during Conference, but I can't recall which one. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/has-the-day-of-miracles-ceased?lang=eng 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 JLHProf: If I were smarter, I might know the answer to your question. I've written at length about my own seemingly-intractable, seemingly-insoluble emotional and professional challenges. I don't know why it seems that I am destined to remain underemployed and/or dissatisfied with the kinds of jobs I am able to get, with all of the attendant challenges that entails. I don't know why I have been unsuccessful in beating back permanently the dog of a psychiatric diagnosis that seems forever to alternate between nipping at my heels and threatening to devour me whole. It's certainly not a lack of beseeching or of importuning which has led to that state of affairs. Perhaps I ought simply to take the advice Job's wife gave him, to "Curse God, and die," (Job 2:9), but, as Dr. Phil might put it (he may be something of a publicity hound, if not a bit of a quack, but he happens to be absolutely right here), "How's that workin' out for ya?" What would that solve? Would I be any better off if I were to do that? If not, then why do it? All I can do is do my best to follow President Uchtdorf's advice and find something(s) to be grateful for, whatever my current circumstances may leave to be desired. I've told before, too, of two failed hip reconstructions with all of the painful, grueling, ultimately-fruitless aftermath which they entailed, and yet, of undergoing three subsequent successful operations, after that. In light of the fact that those failures set me back permanently in some ways, sometimes, I'm tempted to ask why those operations had to fail. The answer is always, Well, things could definitely be worse: In strictly mortal terms, relying only on the predictive power of medical science, there was no guarantee that the subsequent three operations would be successful, either. In fact, the odds were stacked pretty high against you. I only know that God isn't Santa Claus, and that adversity is not necessarily a sign of His disfavor. He doesn't give "presents" to His "good" children and "lumps of coal" to his bad ones. God "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew 5:45). In the bewildering mortal moment, it can be hard to believe this or to understand how, ultimately, it will work, but I do believe that "All things" ... not just the "good" things, and not just the things we understand, but all things ... "[will] work together for the good of them that love God" (Romans 8:28). I do believe that "whom God loveth, He chasteneth" (Hebrews 12:6). When I am tempted to allow bewildering mortal moments to rule the day, God says, essentially, Ken, don't forget how you felt on January 24 and February 14, 1984, and on June 7, 1985. Good reason for outright pessimism (let alone mere caution) notwithstanding, I remember lying on an operating table on each of those days and, each time, feeling the peaceful, calm assurance that things would work out, and they did. And I've felt that assurance at other key points in my life. Temporary mortal bewilderment notwithstanding , I have decided simply to not allow what I do know to be held hostage by what, as yet, I do not know. Whatever else does or does not happen, I have determined to simply refuse to allow bewildering mortal circumstances to obscure the fact that God loves me. If I give that up, what else do I have? 2
Robert F. Smith Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/has-the-day-of-miracles-ceased?lang=eng Yes, an extraordinary sequence of small coincidences -- which had to have been miracles, in retrospect.
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