Mormons being distracted by body/perfectionism issues?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Let me put this in as succinct manner as possible.  I personally KNOW multiple women who chose to remove their extra earrings due to pressure from the church and its members.  Does that answer your questions

Did they tell you that's why they took them out, or are you assuming that's why?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I suspected some push back on this...so let me get this right...you as a strong independent woman make the choice to wear multiple earrings in your ears...and then because Gordon Hinckley says not to wear them you removed them without a second thought?   What your peer group would have thought of you didn't factor in to your decision nor the  mark you would carry within your peer group for not following the prophet didn't factor into your decision... not one wit? Really?

Is it really that hard to believe that a strong independent woman would take out a set of earrings because a prophet of God told her to?

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I did and I stand by my statement and Bluebell KNOWS I'm speaking the truth ...while I don't expect her to admit it here

Wow. This is hilarious. I knew we had some differences but I had no idea your ego was this big. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I might add that they also felt picked on since there was no similar policy or pot light on men who at the time might have chosen to wear an earing.  Why a man would want to wear an earing is beyond me...but I'm just saying...women felt picked on and singled out 

Then they didn't actually listen to what GBH said as he mentioned men first and neither did you since you didn't correct them:

"May I mention earrings and rings placed in other parts of the body. These are not manly. They are not attractive. You young men look better without them, and I believe you will feel better without them. As for the young women, you do not need to drape rings up and down your ears. One modest pair of earrings is sufficient."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/01/a-prophets-counsel-and-prayer-for-youth?lang=eng

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 These are not manly.  

OK, that cracked me up. Did he go on to say that they had better start telling the women what they thought if they wanted to be real men?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

OK, that cracked me up. Did he go on to say that they had better start telling the women what they thought if they wanted to be real men?

Apparently he waited for the Priesthood session for that.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Then they didn't actually listen to what GBH said as he mentioned men first and neither did you since you didn't correct them:

"May I mention earrings and rings placed in other parts of the body. These are not manly. They are not attractive. You young men look better without them, and I believe you will feel better without them. As for the young women, you do not need to drape rings up and down your ears. One modest pair of earrings is sufficient."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/01/a-prophets-counsel-and-prayer-for-youth?lang=eng

So does it make me more or less manly that I would not pierce my ears because it looks terrifyingly painful?

[RevTestament]

On 9/12/2017 at 9:41 AM, bluebell said:

I agree that body image is a complex thing.  But why do the saints in Utah seem to suffer more from it than saints in other places?  Is it just coincidence?  Peer pressure within the church (and why would peer pressure within the church be such a big thing in Utah but not other places)?  

And, from a believer's perspective, when does it makes sense to assume that satan is playing in a part in bad choices?  Sincere question.

I think anytime we start expressing selfish things that is a cue for Satan to start working on us. He knows that is a major fault of people. Probably the only way to cure that is to start expressing things one wants to do for others. Express thoughts of love, and Satan will go away.

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I think anytime we start expressing selfish things that is a cue for Satan to start working on us. He knows that is a major fault of people. Probably the only way to cure that is to start expressing things one wants to do for others. Express thoughts of love, and Satan will go away.

Satan has me selfishly desiring ice cream.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Satan has me selfishly desiring ice cream.

Thanks for reminding me about the maple bacon ice cream.  Finally have an appetite and remember it at the same time.

However, I am unselfishly clearing a space in the freezer so that it will be easier to put the weekend shopping away.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So does it make me more or less manly that I would not pierce my ears because it looks terrifyingly painful?

Just go with magnetic ones...

walmart has them cheap though I think they may be a bit confused:

"Men Stainless Steel Non Piercing Circle Magnetic Fake Stud Earrings"

"There are 4 different colors for you to choose to pair with your dresses."

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Aroncent-4-Pairs-Men-Stainless-Steel-Non-Piercing-Circle-Magnetic-Fake-Stud-Earrings-Clip-On-Ear-Studs/771082894?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=6249&adid=22222222227066395028&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=t&wl3=174525277660&wl4=aud-310687321802:pla-279531077720&wl5=9029895&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=114501640&wl11=online&wl12=771082894&wl13=&veh=sem#read-more

PS:  just don't use them around children who might decide to swallow them. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Calm

[MorningStar]

7 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I did and I stand by my statement and Bluebell KNOWS I'm speaking the truth ...while I don't expect her to admit it here

Maybe the prophet means more to her than earrings? In the eternal scheme, who cares about earrings?  

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Satan has me selfishly desiring ice cream.

Shaytan must have moved from my nose to my stomach ... I imagine he really likes the Butter Pecan ice cream I enjoy...  

[BlueDreams]

lol! This has been one of the funniest couple of pages...

So I want to thank you Johnnie. For feasibly one of the clearest examples of mansplaining I've ever seen. I mean, being an example of a feminist pet peeve could be a form of allying I guess. Sort of???

 

For the record. Of course church culture influences dressing  decisions. Every culture everywhere influences dressing decisions. Just try and go into a bank office in a speedo and a tie to get a job there. Ain't gonna end well. There is a big difference between influence, shaming, culturally forcing, and following Spiritual promptings. You do not seem to make that distinction, heading instead for the worst case conclusions. Doing so railroad and delegitimizes women's voices here. No bueno. 

 

With luv, 

BD (a feminist) 

 

[Rain]

15 hours ago, Duncan said:

it's from Elder Bednar. This whole situation to me is crazy, that story came out years ago, and Pres. Hinckley's counsel came out even before that. Yet we that Al Fox Carraway telling everyone not to judge each other and people have tatts and that kind of thing and she's hugely popular with the Saints and to me kind of undoing what Pres. Hinckley and Elder Bednar have been saying. I know they say not to be critical of each other but it's funny to me, just two different messages

You are connecting two different things. Joan follows the prophet by not stealing candy. Jack judges her for being self righteous. If we start saying that a commandment or word of advice is bad because it leads to judging then we might as well not have a prophet.

If you listen to AL Caraway I think you will find she is very much a follow the prophet/Lord kind of woman.

 

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I did and I stand by my statement and Bluebell KNOWS I'm speaking the truth ...while I don't expect her to admit it here

Oh yeah that helps the bullying a lot

Now you are right either way and it's her fault for not admitting you are right

Just keep on digging dude.  Your hubris is unbelievable.

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

board members here have turf they need to protect.  Bluebell has hers and Calm has hers... I honestly don't give a hoot any more...I'm tied of Pusey footing around on this board always having to self edit and use nuanced and diplomacy...I'm just going to tell it like I see it.  I'll probably be  banned but at this point I don't care...somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is. While it is my desire to remain a poster here on this board...because I do enjoy the exchange...I'm going to retain my self respect and throw caution to the wind...and If that happens to me for being honest and telling the truth...so be it

So you admit there is at least one omniscient being in the universe?  Yourself?  Interesting.

Edited September 14, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, ksfisher said:

You're really trying to make friends today.  You've told Bluebell that you know more about why she does things than she does and now you're telling Calm that she's never been an active participant in an LDS ward because she doesn't see things the same as you. 

Hubris may be your undoing eventually here.

I think he is just projecting his inability to understand freely given obedience on others.  He can't conceive of actually surrendering his ego to another

Heck if he is reading minds, we might as well all give it a try.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

But Society certainly doesn't impact everything I wear.  Beyond providing the pool from which I make my choices and placing the price tag on it, I would say society currently has very, very little impact on what I choose wear the majority of the time outside of a certain level of modesty to avoid embarrassing those around me and no impact on what I wear or do not wear in my ears, face, or hair save for faculty parties where I see a possible impact of my behaviour on my husband's work environment.

My preferences are likely a mix of certain aspects of society I enjoy...I grew up in the San Fran area and have always appreciate natural styles, my mother was an artist so I crave balance and color (but my style is so not hers), I used to breathe science fiction and fantasy and enjoy a touch of the exotic though this can be hard to find.  On the other hand, I was extremely shy as a child and I have not quite been able to dump that so people staring at me for any reason is not appealing so I avoid the bizarre.  I can't think of anything I avoid out of shame.  I used to have some skin tight clothing as a youth, feel like it suffocates me now so tend to be looser these days.  I don't wear sleeveless or shorts or capris for that matter because I burn bad very quickly and skin cancer runs in the family and I hate the feel of sticky feel of skin on skin or plastic or whatever.

I answer the door in my pjs all the time.  I didn't ask them to knock on my door, if they are embarrassed, that is their problem. I have ten pairs of three versions of the same pair of black pants because I like the way they feel and look, they are well made, but very cheap and go with all my tops and most important, never need to be ironed.  I have stopped wearing men's shirts as much when I go out because I take care of Mom these days and she feels more comfortable around a more feminine style and .I like to cheer her up.  The shirts I am now choosing tend to be closer to paint canvases than prints, I love online shopping.

I have two dresses that I alternate for church because I generally hate dresses and only like the one style.  One is black  Don't really care if people think I am weird for wearing the same thing over and over again.

Just because society at times might impact a woman's choice in such a way that it creates pressure does not mean this pressure is either shame based or impacts all her decisions.

You may be hyperaware of what other people think of you; doesn't mean that everyone else is the same way.

Who are you to contradict him?

 

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Edit to Add:   Alias, I have used up my small allotment of daily posts...so I won't be able to respond to those of you who wish to question my mental state. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone...just make a point that I believe that the church influences how we dress, what we wear, what we eat, how we modify out own personal bodies, what tattoos are ok and which are not, what body enhancements meet with approval and which do not...the impact on members personal lives is all encompassing and  eclipsing of our individual personal choices. The church sets the standards and then allows its member to subtly influence members to comply with the authorized approved standard.  Like I stated in an earlier post in this thread its an undercurrent...always there and ever present.

There you go!

If I had seen the church that way I would have left too.  And it is ever present?  You mean your paranoia was ever present.  I would not take you to be so easily intimidated by the mere existence of church standards.   It is surprising

[Marginal Gains]

9 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Sorry Juliann...I'm a feminist ally...so I admit when men tell women how many earrings to wear it does get me riled up... Bluebell, I went too far...I presumed to know what your motivations were...that said I believe you were partially motivated by a desire to comply.  

maxi shirts?   Not going to go there...

 

Edit to Add:   Alias, I have used up my small allotment of daily posts...so I won't be able to respond to those of you who wish to question my mental state. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone...just make a point that I believe that the church influences how we dress, what we wear, what we eat, how we modify out own personal bodies, what tattoos are ok and which are not, what body enhancements meet with approval and which do not...the impact on members personal lives is all encompassing and  eclipsing of our individual personal choices. The church sets the standards and then allows its member to subtly influence members to comply with the authorized approved standard.  Like I stated in an earlier post in this thread its an undercurrent...always there and ever present.

The Church doesn’t just influence what members wear, it conditions, and from an early age. Youth have numerous lessons about how dress standards influence other behaviours and in particular young women are cautioned about various things (including bare shoulders or form fitting clothing) because young men just can’t control themselves. I think it’s different for an adult convert coming into the Church than it is for someone who has been through the conditioning process of primary and youth. The Church air brushed shoulders onto a dress of a six year old pictured in Church media, publishes dress standards for youth and has Prophets spending time and energy thinking about ladies ear rings in a talk about worthiness and drugs and tattoos and pornography, how can it possibly be suggested that the Church doesn’t influence how its members dress? 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

The Church doesn’t just influence what members wear, it conditions, and from an early age. Youth have numerous lessons about how dress standards influence other behaviours and in particular young women are cautioned about various things (including bare shoulders or form fitting clothing) because young men just can’t control themselves. I think it’s different for an adult convert coming into the Church than it is for someone who has been through the conditioning process of primary and youth. The Church air brushed shoulders onto a dress of a six year old pictured in Church media, publishes dress standards for youth and has Prophets spending time and energy thinking about ladies ear rings in a talk about worthiness and drugs and tattoos and pornography, how can it possibly be suggested that the Church doesn’t influence how its members dress? 

Uh, no.

Garments dude, garments.

No one ever suggested the church doesn't influence how you dress.

It should.

You teach kids modest styles so wearing garments becomes natural. That's the deal with sleeves.

[ksfisher]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think he is just projecting his inability to understand freely given obedience on others.  He can't conceive of actually surrendering his ego to another

Heck if he is reading minds, we might as well all give it a try.

I'll admit that I'm also guilty of projecting my reasoning on others at times, but I hope that I have enough brains not to tell them that.

[MorningStar]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

"somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is."

Because women are pretty much incapable of telling it like it is as we are too prone to complying with society and giving in to shame.

Man, the feminism just drips from Johnnie's posts.

"that said I believe you were partially motivated by a desire to comply"

I am so impressed by the man rushing in to save the poor, cowed, weak willed woman who dreams of wearing two or more earrings on one ear and yet cannot bear the disapproving frowns surrounding her.  How could we women survive without him!  How could we ever learn to know our true inner selves if he wasn't here to tell us!  Feminism lives even in the darkest MDDB desert!

Bluebell, accept who you are.  Put that second earring back in and Live Free!  You know you want to because Johnnie says so!

What a feminist needs is a man to tell them what they really feel.

[bluebell]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Bluebell, accept who you are.  Put that second earring back in and Live Free!  You know you want to because Johnnie says so!

My body is working against me.  It just does not approve of having holes it and works tirelessly to that end.  After re-piercing my ears three times (the last time, a year ago, I left the studs in for 6 months because they told me that the holes would never close again-they are already closed), i'm surrendering.