Mormons being distracted by body/perfectionism issues?

[Johnnie Cake]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

In other words, you have no idea why those women decided to lose their multiple earrings.  

Let me put this in as succinct manner as possible.  I personally KNOW multiple women who chose to remove their extra earrings due to pressure from the church and its members.  Does that answer your questions

[Johnnie Cake]

25 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps you could just believe Bluebell when she tells you what her motivations were. 

Personally, I admire her for her decision to follow the prophet's suggestion.

I believe that following the prophet was certainly the initial motivation....but had there NOT been societal pressure within the Mormon church to conform and had she actually had freedom of choice without this added pressure, I believe she would have continued to wear her multiple earrings as she desired...but it took the added societal consequences element to actually remove them and I'll add begrudgeningly...so YES I do not believe she is being honest with us nor herself....and while I don't expect her to admit it here on this board...this is what I believe to be true.  And why do I feel this way...because President Hinckley completely over steeped his bounds and I know that women resented him doing so, they complied but they also resented it.  There is not anything morally wrong with multiple earrings.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I suspected some push back on this...so let me get this right...you as a strong independent woman make the choice to wear multiple earrings in your ears...and then because Gordon Hinckley says not to wear them you removed them without a second thought?   What your peer group would have thought of you didn't factor in to your decision nor the  mark you would carry within your peer group for not following the prophet didn't factor into your decision... not one wit? Really?

Do you choose everything you wear based on how others will react to it?  There is nothing you wear just because you want to?

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Let me put this in as succinct manner as possible.  I personally KNOW multiple women who chose to remove their extra earrings due to pressure from the church and its members.  Does that answer your questions

Did they tell you this or are you using the same process of omniscient mindreading you are using with Bluebell to determine their motivations?

[Johnnie Cake]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you choose everything you wear based on how others will react to it?  There is nothing you wear just because you want to?

Quote

Did they tell you this or are you using the same process of omniscient mindreading you are using with Bluebell to determine their motivations?

and Calm yes...I had multiple women pour out their hearts to me over this and other issues when I served in the bishopric.  I've also had conversations with friends and family over this very question...so YES again YES I know this first hand that this policy impacted woman and that many resent it despite their compiling with the policy

 

I might add that they also felt picked on since there was no similar policy or pot light on men who at the time might have chosen to wear an earing.  Why a man would want to wear an earing is beyond me...but I'm just saying...women felt picked on and singled out 

And if those who are pushing back on my assertions of societal peer pressure within the Mormon church on both this and other unique LDS policies...Then I'm guessing you've never really been an active fully participating member of an LDS ward.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[MorningStar]

40 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I suspected some push back on this...so let me get this right...you as a strong independent woman make the choice to wear multiple earrings in your ears...and then because Gordon Hinckley says not to wear them you removed them without a second thought?   What your peer group would have thought of you didn't factor in to your decision nor the  mark you would carry within your peer group for not following the prophet didn't factor into your decision... not one wit? Really?

Oh no you didn't!

[Johnnie Cake]

1 minute ago, MorningStar said:

Oh no you didn't!

I did and I stand by my statement and Bluebell KNOWS I'm speaking the truth ...while I don't expect her to admit it here

Edited September 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

and Calm yes...I had multiple women pour out their hearts to me over this and other issues when I served in the bishopric.  I've also had conversations with friends and family over this very question...so YES again YES I know this first hand that this policy impacted woman and that many resent it despite their compiling with the policy

 

I might add that they also felt picked on since there was no similar policy or pot light on men who at the time might have chosen to wear an earing.  Why a man would want to wear an earing is beyond me...but I'm just saying...women felt picked on and singled out 

And if those who are pushing back on my assertions of societal peer pressure within the Mormon church on both this and other unique LDS policies...Then I'm guessing you've never really been an active fully participating member of an LDS ward.

You're really trying to make friends today.  You've told Bluebell that you know more about why she does things than she does and now you're telling Calm that she's never been an active participant in an LDS ward because she doesn't see things the same as you. 

Hubris may be your undoing eventually here.

[Johnnie Cake]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You're really trying to make friends today.  You've told Bluebell that you know more about why she does things than she does and now you're telling Calm that she's never been an active participant in an LDS ward because she doesn't see things the same as you. 

Hubris may be your undoing eventually here.

board members here have turf they need to protect.  Bluebell has hers and Calm has hers... I honestly don't give a hoot any more...I'm tied of Pusey footing around on this board always having to self edit and use nuanced and diplomacy...I'm just going to tell it like I see it.  I'll probably be  banned but at this point I don't care...somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is. While it is my desire to remain a poster here on this board...because I do enjoy the exchange...I'm going to retain my self respect and throw caution to the wind...and If that happens to me for being honest and telling the truth...so be it

Edited September 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Calm]

But Society certainly doesn't impact everything I wear.  Beyond providing the pool from which I make my choices and placing the price tag on it, I would say society currently has very, very little impact on what I choose wear the majority of the time outside of a certain level of modesty to avoid embarrassing those around me and no impact on what I wear or do not wear in my ears, face, or hair save for faculty parties where I see a possible impact of my behaviour on my husband's work environment.

My preferences are likely a mix of certain aspects of society I enjoy...I grew up in the San Fran area and have always appreciate natural styles, my mother was an artist so I crave balance and color (but my style is so not hers), I used to breathe science fiction and fantasy and enjoy a touch of the exotic though this can be hard to find.  On the other hand, I was extremely shy as a child and I have not quite been able to dump that so people staring at me for any reason is not appealing so I avoid the bizarre.  I can't think of anything I avoid out of shame.  I used to have some skin tight clothing as a youth, feel like it suffocates me now so tend to be looser these days.  I don't wear sleeveless or shorts or capris for that matter because I burn bad very quickly and skin cancer runs in the family and I hate the feel of sticky feel of skin on skin or plastic or whatever.

I answer the door in my pjs all the time.  I didn't ask them to knock on my door, if they are embarrassed, that is their problem. I have ten pairs of three versions of the same pair of black pants because I like the way they feel and look, they are well made, but very cheap and go with all my tops and most important, never need to be ironed.  I have stopped wearing men's shirts as much when I go out because I take care of Mom these days and she feels more comfortable around a more feminine style and .I like to cheer her up.  The shirts I am now choosing tend to be closer to paint canvases than prints, I love online shopping.

I have two dresses that I alternate for church because I generally hate dresses and only like the one style.  One is black  Don't really care if people think I am weird for wearing the same thing over and over again.

Just because society at times might impact a woman's choice in such a way that it creates pressure does not mean this pressure is either shame based or impacts all her decisions.

You may be hyperaware of what other people think of you; doesn't mean that everyone else is the same way.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

board members here have turf they need to protect.  Bluebell has hers and Calm has hers... I honestly don't give a hoot any more...I'm tied of Pusey footing around on this board always having to self edit and use nuanced and diplomacy...I'm just going to tell it like I see it.  I'll probably be  banned but at this point I don't care...somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is. While it is my desire to remain a poster here on this board...because I do enjoy the exchange...I'm going to retain my self respect and throw caution to the wind...and If that happens to me for being honest and telling the truth...so be it

I have no doubt there are women who feel this way.  I just know by my own experience there are plenty of women who don't.

You are stereotyping women based on some weird personal interpretation of how we must really feel.  It is absolutely bizarre.  And it is not honesty or the truth, but bigotry.  Women have a huge range of motivations for what they do.  They are individuals.  They don't all think alike.  They make choices for different reasons.  Many unfortunately have self image issues or are overly focused on what others thinks.  Others could care less, perhaps because it was never that important to begin with (I wore jeans to school every day except when all were in the wash, comfort has always been top of the list) and other needs or desires became much stronger.  Probably most are a mix.

One size fits all never works out that well, whether in clothing or in psychoanalyzing.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm

[juliann]

15 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I did and I stand by my statement and Bluebell KNOWS I'm speaking the truth ...while I don't expect her to admit it here

If anyone ever needed proof that male condescension and disrespect towards women isn't just a Mormon problem.....   Wow. Wow. Wow. 

(Because we know that all women who have had multiple ear piercings have kept them. Only Mormons had other nefarious reasons, right Cake?)

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

board members here have turf they need to protect.  Bluebell has hers and Calm has hers... I honestly don't give a hoot any more...I'm tied of Pusey footing around on this board always having to self edit and use nuanced and diplomacy...I'm just going to tell it like I see it.  I'll probably be  banned but at this point I don't care...somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is. While it is my desire to remain a poster here on this board...because I do enjoy the exchange...I'm going to retain my self respect and throw caution to the wind...and If that happens to me for being honest and telling the truth...so be it

Um, .....gag?

We are finally going to see the real you, eh? Submit BB!

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is. While it is my desire to remain a poster here on this board...because I do enjoy the exchange...I'm going to retain my self respect and throw caution to the wind...and If that happens to me for being honest and telling the truth...so be it

You can tell it like it is for you, but you can't tell it like it is for another poster.  How do you imagine that you can tell the truth about Bluebell's motivations?  How can you know anything about what motivates her? 

[juliann]

Cake, why did I really start wearing maxi skirts to church?

[Nemesis]

21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I did and I stand by my statement and Bluebell KNOWS I'm speaking the truth ...while I don't expect her to admit it here

So I take it then we can just tell you that you wanted to sin in heinous ways and you would have to accept it.  You just wanted to conform to societal pressures to fit in with your heinously sinning peer group.    We could go on an on like this.  This is exactly why we don't allow it from either side.   Knock it off.

Nemesis

[Johnnie Cake]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have no doubt there are women who feel this way.  I just know by my own experience there are plenty of women who don't.

You are stereotyping women based on some weird personal interpretation of how we must really feel.  It is absolutely bizarre.  And it is not honesty or the truth, but bigotry.  Women have a huge range of motivations for what they do.  They are individuals.  They don't all think alike.  They make choices for different reasons.  Many unfortunately have self image issues or are overly focused on what others thinks.  Others could care less, perhaps because it was never that important to begin with (I wore jeans to school every day except when all were in the wash, comfort has always been top of the list) and other needs or desires became much stronger.  Probably most are a mix.

One size fits all never works out that well, whether in clothing or in psychoanalyzing.

all good and fair points Calm...and yes I admit I'm painting with a broad brush  and that the spectrum runs the gambit...and you are correct one size does not fit all...

[Johnnie Cake]

21 minutes ago, juliann said:

Cake, why did I really start wearing maxi skirts to church?

Sorry Juliann...I'm a feminist ally...so I admit when men tell women how many earrings to wear it does get me riled up... Bluebell, I went too far...I presumed to know what your motivations were...that said I believe you were partially motivated by a desire to comply.  

maxi shirts?   Not going to go there...

 

Edit to Add:   Alias, I have used up my small allotment of daily posts...so I won't be able to respond to those of you who wish to question my mental state. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone...just make a point that I believe that the church influences how we dress, what we wear, what we eat, how we modify out own personal bodies, what tattoos are ok and which are not, what body enhancements meet with approval and which do not...the impact on members personal lives is all encompassing and  eclipsing of our individual personal choices. The church sets the standards and then allows its member to subtly influence members to comply with the authorized approved standard.  Like I stated in an earlier post in this thread its an undercurrent...always there and ever present.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[juliann]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 Bluebell, I went too far...I presumed to know what your motivations were...that said I believe you were partially motivated by a desire to comply.  

 

   

This is your idea of not going to far, you feminist ally, you? 

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

n  

maxi shirts?   Not going to go there...

It was a maxi skirt. And I bet you are sure as sure can be that I started wearing them to comply with some rule when in real life, our ward is too dang cold. 

I still want to know how many nonLDS women you know who removed earrings did so to "comply." Or do you actually think that nonLDS women have kept all their earrings?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

all good and fair points Calm...and yes I admit I'm painting with a broad brush  and that the spectrum runs the gambit...and you are correct one size does not fit all...

Then stop claiming/acting like it does if you believe it doesn't. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Sorry Juliann...I'm a feminist ally...so I admit when men tell women how many earrings to wear it does get me riled up... Bluebell, I went too far...I presumed to know what your motivations were...that said I believe you were partially motivated by a desire to comply.  

maxi shirts?   Not going to go there...

No, you only think you are a feminist ally apparently.  Your actions in this thread are not feminist at all here...including this post.

It is much more sexist to tell women what they really think, who they are at their core, that they are lying in what they say if they disagree with you, and that they have to do so to defend turf or because they must by their nature comply than it ever was for a man to tell a woman how many earrings are appropriate.

You really need to reevaluate yourself if you consider yourself profeminist.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

"somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is."

Because women are pretty much incapable of telling it like it is as we are too prone to complying with society and giving in to shame.

Man, the feminism just drips from Johnnie's posts.

"that said I believe you were partially motivated by a desire to comply"

I am so impressed by the man rushing in to save the poor, cowed, weak willed woman who dreams of wearing two or more earrings on one ear and yet cannot bear the disapproving frowns surrounding her.  How could we women survive without him!  How could we ever learn to know our true inner selves if he wasn't here to tell us!  Feminism lives even in the darkest MDDB desert!

Bluebell, accept who you are.  Put that second earring back in and Live Free!  You know you want to because Johnnie says so!

Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm

[Nemesis]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

"somebody has to stand up, be a man and tell it like it is."

Because women are pretty much incapable of telling it like it is as we are too prone to complying with society,

Man, the feminism just drips from Johnnie's posts.

Can I be you and you be me for a sec.  I think he's just trying to conform to societal pressures of the cesspool and backpedaling because he is afraid of a certain misandristic poster over there. 

Nemesis

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Can I be you and you be me for a sec.  I think he's just trying to conform to societal pressures of the cesspool and backpedaling because he is afraid of a certain misandristic poster over there. 

Nemesis

Of course.  All men act out of fear of the alpha while desiring to be them.