Mormons being distracted by body/perfectionism issues?

[jkwilliams]

I'll just repeat something my mission president said to me many years ago: "We don't sin because Satan tempts us. We sin because we like to sin."

[Johnnie Cake]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I know where the idea of it comes from, and I have no doubt that some women have felt shamed for such choices, but I have never met any personally who have, and there are quite a few women who ignore that counsel.  Seeing tattoos and multiple earrings at ward and stake functions really isn't that odd in my area of Davis county and i've never seen any silent judging going on-these women all seem very popular and have big callings at both the ward and stake level.  I've served with some of them in stake leadership callings.    

That's why I asked if you personally knew women who are being shamed for those choices.

Those that I am aware of caved to pressure, complied and removed their extra earrings after being silently shamed.   Its common for this kind of passive aggressive shaming to take place with in the church and is one of the most damaging aspect of the church.  We also see it in youth lessons  and Social media shaming of Mormon celebrities who push the boundaries etc.  I'm happy to hear that in your neck of the woods things have softened and that these woman are taking control of their own lives by resisting the silent harm this passive aggressive institutional shaming inflicts on women

[Duncan]

I think Satan can give us the idea and we run with it, so I don't think he is tempting us every step of the way but he wants us to be miserable like himself. Somebody once said that Mormons are like manure, spread it around and it isn't too bad but pile it into one area and it stinks! Canada, where am I from we have our issues not this that I have noticed. From what I have heard from insiders this can go on to some extent in heavier Mormon areas like Calgary, Vancouver etc.at least that's what I was told by people living there (mostly too because members in those cities have the cash to buy stuff like that) but here too the whole physical appearances thing isn't a big issue like it sounds like in other areas. I think that houses, cars, and trips are the money pit for Canadians and a certain sense of pride in who you are related to. Do I think people are shamed? maybe, here we pride ourselves on how much we saved on something rather than how much we spent on something. You don't want to buy garbage obviously but we had a Bishop from Magrath, Alberta who bought a pickup truck from the police auction, it got around, not a nice looking vehicle but who cares. Anyways they moved to Edmonton and some member remarked that that looks like a hunk of junk and he thought maybe he should get a brand new truck, and Alberta has some big trucks!!! his wife on the other hand was like, are you daft? some random member makes one remark and you want to buy the newest and coolest and who would be stuck paying for this beast for how many years now? not them!!!! so they decided on another option!

This reminds me of this article I read earlier

https://ldsmag.com/recognizing-spiritual-self-abuse/

Edited September 12, 2017 by Duncan

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think Satan can give us the idea and we run with it, so I don't think he is tempting us every step of the way but he wants us to be miserable like himself. Somebody once said that Mormons are like manure, spread it around and it isn't too bad but pile it into one area and it stinks! Canada, where am I from we have our issues not this that I have noticed. From what I have heard from insiders this can go on to some extent in heavier Mormon areas like Calgary, Vancouver etc.at least that's what I was told by people living there (mostly too because members in those cities have the cash to buy stuff like that) but here too the whole physical appearances thing isn't a big issue like it sounds like in other areas. I think that houses, cars, and trips are the money pit for Canadians and a certain sense of pride in who you are related to. Do I think people are shamed? maybe, here we pride ourselves on how much we saved on something rather than how much we spent on something. You don't want to buy garbage obviously but we had a Bishop from Magrath, Alberta who bought a pickup truck from the police auction, it got around, not a nice looking vehicle but who cares. Anyways they moved to Edmonton and some member remarked that that looks like a hunk of junk and he thought maybe he should get a brand new truck, and Alberta has some big trucks!!! his wife on the other hand was like, are you daft? some random member makes one remark and you want to buy the newest and coolest and who would be stuck paying for this beast for how many years now? not them!!!! so they decided on another option!

I consider myself very fortunate to have grown up in a very affluent area (home of the Kardashians, look it up!). Pretty much everyone in our neighborhood had a Mercedes or BMW, and we were the Mormon family with the big van. Families in our cul-de-sac went to Hawaii or Europe or Israel on vacation; we drove to my grandparents' farm in Utah. A lot of kids in my high school received a new car for their 16th birthday; my Dad and I rebuilt a salvaged car, which I got to drive sometimes (we didn't have enough money to get it painted, so the left side of the car was gray primer with black spots. It fit right in with the BMWs at the school parking lot). People in our neighborhood and town had nicer clothes than we did, more material goods, gardeners, pool cleaners, and maids. We did not.

Oddly enough, though, growing up among all this conspicuous consumption, my siblings and I developed a sort of aversion to ostentatious wealth. I saw how lonely and unhappy the kids in the neighborhood were because their parents were never home. They were raised, more or less, by the maids. Our house was where everyone came to play because my mother was home, and they felt welcomed. That's the kind of home I wanted, not one with a shiny new car and the latest technology. 

For that, I'm grateful I grew up in the family and home I did, which was so easy to contrast with everything around us. 

[mfbukowski]

Utah?

Try LA.  It has nothing to do with the church. SLC is just the biggest metro area most here know well. 

Ever drive thru Vegas?

Clearly a first world problem and a hive mentality facilitated by the internet

No one thinks for themselves any more. Our intelligence is becoming artificial like everything else.

[Duncan]

15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I consider myself very fortunate to have grown up in a very affluent area (home of the Kardashians, look it up!). Pretty much everyone in our neighborhood had a Mercedes or BMW, and we were the Mormon family with the big van. Families in our cul-de-sac went to Hawaii or Europe or Israel on vacation; we drove to my grandparents' farm in Utah. A lot of kids in my high school received a new car for their 16th birthday; my Dad and I rebuilt a salvaged car, which I got to drive sometimes (we didn't have enough money to get it painted, so the left side of the car was gray primer with black spots. It fit right in with the BMWs at the school parking lot). People in our neighborhood and town had nicer clothes than we did, more material goods, gardeners, pool cleaners, and maids. We did not.

Oddly enough, though, growing up among all this conspicuous consumption, my siblings and I developed a sort of aversion to ostentatious wealth. I saw how lonely and unhappy the kids in the neighborhood were because their parents were never home. They were raised, more or less, by the maids. Our house was where everyone came to play because my mother was home, and they felt welcomed. That's the kind of home I wanted, not one with a shiny new car and the latest technology. 

For that, I'm grateful I grew up in the family and home I did, which was so easy to contrast with everything around us. 

That's lovely! we had the same kind of situation, Mom was home and we went without but my Mom was home. It reminds me of the "whited sepulchres", looks all nice on the outside but nothing is going on inside

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Utah?

Try LA.  It has nothing to do with the church. SLC is just the biggest metro area most here know well. 

Ever drive thru Vegas?

Clearly a first world problem and a hive mentality facilitated by the internet

No one thinks for themselves any more. Our intelligence is becoming artificial like everything else.

I always feel like I'm in la-la land when I go to City Creek mall or Station Park in Farmington. Stores galore that are centered on looks or vainful things, I'm vain too but try not to be.

A couple of days ago, I came out of a movie at Station Park Cinemark, and what I saw was like seeing a movie about the future. New cars that were hooked up to electicity, fashions that were a little on the odd side. It could have been that I just saw a movie and always feel a little bit odd, I felt like I was seeing the future already! But love my friend's comment years ago when the mall opened. She's TBM to the core but said she's wearing her sweats to the mall to counteract the focus on looking good, she didn't put it that way, but that was the gist. 

That thing with thinking for ourselves is so true. We are always comparing ourselves to others too, on social media. (speak for myself!) 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That lady in the blog seems to have an obsession about Satan being after us. I hope the leaders/members dial back on mentioning the power Satan has in talks. But concentrate more on the power of Jesus Christ or our own moral compasses. Day to day thinking, that Satan is working on us, doesn't help. 

I don't think she has an obsession on it.  Believing it's happening is not the same as being obsessed, is it?  Do you have references that show leaders focusing on the power of satan more than the power of Christ in their talks?  They would be great to consider, given the topic.  Please share them.

As to your last statement, do you believe that satan only periodically bothers with us or are you saying that even though satan is constantly focused on keeping people from God, focusing on it doesn't help?

Quote

I get sick of the competition that women have with one another sometimes, or maybe they just want to feel part of the crowd. I remember reading something about women dressing for other women, or trying to impress...it's actually true, trying to fit in with the latest trends etc.

I agree that it can get very wearying.  I think that most of the competition only happens in our heads (and that few people are sitting back judging other saints as being inadequate because of their dress/weight/patchy eyebrows) but it's still a struggle not to worry that people are thinking about us way more than they actually are.

Quote

And it doesn't help when we have apostles adding to the pressure by saying some things in talks.

Please provide these 'things' so they can be discussed.

Quote

Remember the "put a little lipstick on" comment by Elder Ballard?

I do remember it, but I don't have a reference.  Can you post it?

Quote

Also, I remember hearing somewhere, could be media, that Utah had the prettiest women, or something like that, and I chalk it up to that Stepford Wives' mentality, or that women don't dare leave the house until they look perfect. 

So some national media person says that Utah has the prettiest women and you interpret that as a negative mark against the church?  Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Those that I am aware of caved to pressure, complied and removed their extra earrings after being silently shamed.   Its common for this kind of passive aggressive shaming to take place with in the church and is one of the most damaging aspect of the church.  We also see it in youth lessons  and Social media shaming of Mormon celebrities who push the boundaries etc.  I'm happy to hear that in your neck of the woods things have softened and that these woman are taking control of their own lives by resisting the silent harm this passive aggressive institutional shaming inflicts on women

So you don't personally know of any active mormon women with more than one ear piercing or tattoo but have talked to those who used to have multiple earrings and know that they removed their earrings only after being shamed?  

Is that what you're saying? (Just want to make sure i'm understanding you right).

[bluebell]

55 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'd say blaming Satan is the last resort. I'd look into my own motivations and problems before I thought of involving Satan. But that's just me.

What if we change the language we are using to talk about the situation.  For example, I don't know any active sincere member who 'blames' satan for their sins.  They know that they made those choices, not satan.  But they do see satan being involved in helping those choices seem rational and justifiable in the moment.  I feel like using the phrase 'blaming satan' clouds the issue.

Do you doubt that satan is regularly involved in making sin look enticing in your life and using your weaknesses, for example, or do you think that when that happens it's mostly just you?  And if you think it's mostly just you, then what do you believe he is doing with his time to get people to distance themselves from God?  

Where's satan's focus if it's not us?

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What if we change the language we are using to talk about the situation.  For example, I don't know any active sincere member who 'blames' satan for their sins.  They know that they made those choices, not satan.  But they do see satan being involved in helping those choices seem rational and justifiable in the moment.  I feel like using the phrase 'blaming satan' clouds the issue.

Do you doubt that satan is regularly involved in making sin look enticing in your life and using your weaknesses, for example, or do you think that when that happens it's mostly just you?  And if you think it's mostly just you, then what do you believe he is doing with his time to get people to distance themselves from God?  

Where's satan's focus if it's not us?

Honestly, sometimes I think he's just sitting back and enjoying watching us mess ourselves up without any help. The older I get, the more I think of Satan as a metaphor for our own selfishness. We don't need any assistance in being selfish and greedy. If there is a literal being named Satan who is trying to draw us away from God, all he has to do is periodically remind us of our selfish desires. 

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think she has an obsession on it.  Believing it's happening is not the same as being obsessed, is it?  Do you have references that show leaders focusing on the power of satan more than the power of Christ in their talks?  They would be great to consider, given the topic.  Please share them.

As to your last statement, do you believe that satan only periodically bothers with us or are you saying that even though satan is constantly focused on keeping people from God, focusing on it doesn't help?

I agree that it can get very wearying.  I think that most of the competition only happens in our heads (and that few people are sitting back judging other saints as being inadequate because of their dress/weight/patchy eyebrows) but it's still a struggle not to worry that people are thinking about us way more than they actually are.

Please provide these 'things' so they can be discussed.

I do remember it, but I don't have a reference.  Can you post it?

So some national media person says that Utah has the prettiest women and you interpret that as a negative mark against the church?  Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Wow, soon have to get ready to go out but will try to get to these. My answers to your questions in bold.

1. I don't think she has an obsession on it.  Believing it's happening is not the same as being obsessed, is it?  Do you have references that show leaders focusing on the power of satan more than the power of Christ in their talks?  They would be great to consider, given the topic.  Please share them. No, did I say that? If I did, I'm wrong. I just know there are a lot of talks about Satan. Google Satan and LDS to see pages and pages. 

2. As to your last statement, do you believe that satan only periodically bothers with us or are you saying that even though satan is constantly focused on keeping people from God, focusing on it doesn't help? Nope, focusing on another being coming between you and God all the time isn't good. Especially when you've no idea if it's real or not. Even in the Bible there is a recent article I read that the serpent in Genesis isn't even Satan but just a snake. I remember feeling like Satan was always after me and now that I don't know that he exists, my life is so much better. I rely heavily on my own moral compass and don't give it to something else to monitor over. If that makes sense. 

3. Please provide these 'things' so they can be discussed. I type out quickly and post thoughts and don't really study what I say. The only "thing" is about looking good. I remember Pres. Hinckley during a talk said what a great looking bunch they were to an audience. I think I've heard it a couple or more times. It always made me feel like "looks" were important to the church. Those were just my feelings, not saying anything against it per say, just got that feeling.  

4. I do remember it, but I don't have a reference.  Can you post it? http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/10/28/mormon-leader-tells-single-women-to-put-on-lipstick-and-stop-looking-like-men/

5. So some national media person says that Utah has the prettiest women and you interpret that as a negative mark against the church?  Or am I misunderstanding what you mean? When I first heard it, I immediately thought that it was mainly LDS women that looked good because Utah has a lot of LDS. I was TBM and was quite proud. Now, I see that it's becomes a burden, money and other. I wish women didn't feel the need to look good but I guess that's how they feel they will be more accepted. And I hope it's not their husbands, but will say that a lot of men have issues with women and weight problems, they add to the problem. 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Those that I am aware of caved to pressure, complied and removed their extra earrings after being silently shamed.   Its common for this kind of passive aggressive shaming to take place with in the church and is one of the most damaging aspect of the church.  We also see it in youth lessons  and Social media shaming of Mormon celebrities who push the boundaries etc.  I'm happy to hear that in your neck of the woods things have softened and that these woman are taking control of their own lives by resisting the silent harm this passive aggressive institutional shaming inflicts on women

I totally remember going to a Stake Primary meeting for teachers. We separated into different classes with individual Stake Primary leaders and the gal we had had two sets of earrings. I was shocked, but quite impressed with her wearing them. I had caved and now my second holes are closed up. 

[MorningStar]

I don't understand the trend.  It's vain and then there's the costly apparel thing.  And I swear, if one more of my Facebook friends tries to sell me Shakeology/Beach Body because they're a "health coach", I'm going to throw a doughnut at them.  I just want to say, "Do you really think no one else has approached me about it?  I see your 80 million posts about Shakeology.  I see your daily selfie with your shake.  If I were interested, I would approach you!!!"  

 

 

 

[MorningStar]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What if we change the language we are using to talk about the situation.  For example, I don't know any active sincere member who 'blames' satan for their sins.  They know that they made those choices, not satan.  But they do see satan being involved in helping those choices seem rational and justifiable in the moment.  I feel like using the phrase 'blaming satan' clouds the issue.

Do you doubt that satan is regularly involved in making sin look enticing in your life and using your weaknesses, for example, or do you think that when that happens it's mostly just you?  And if you think it's mostly just you, then what do you believe he is doing with his time to get people to distance themselves from God?  

Where's satan's focus if it's not us?

Satan made me eat ice cream for lunch yesterday.  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, MorningStar said:

Satan made me eat ice cream for lunch yesterday.  

He tempted me to eat ice cream last night. Luckily, my granddaughter saw it, and most of it ended up in her mouth.

[Johnnie Cake]

45 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So you don't personally know of any active mormon women with more than one ear piercing or tattoo but have talked to those who used to have multiple earrings and know that they removed their earrings only after being shamed?  

Is that what you're saying? (Just want to make sure i'm understanding you right).

That is correct...I only know of active LDS women who removed their earrings from multiple earring to one after being instructed to do so...and I am unaware of any active LDS woman who got a tattoo while being active...other than the aforementioned eyebrow tattoo's

[SteveO]

23 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I don't understand the trend.  It's vain and then there's the costly apparel thing.  And I swear, if one more of my Facebook friends tries to sell me Shakeology/Beach Body because they're a "health coach", I'm going to throw a doughnut at them.  I just want to say, "Do you really think no one else has approached me about it?  I see your 80 million posts about Shakeology.  I see your daily selfie with your shake.  If I were interested, I would approach you!!!"  

 

 

 

The "Thrive" lifestyle thing is getting stupid  ridiculous...

"Gonna change the world by crushing this 300lb bench press..."

 

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

That is correct...I only know of active LDS women who removed their earrings from multiple earring to one after being instructed to do so...and I am unaware of any active LDS woman who got a tattoo while being active...other than the aforementioned eyebrow tattoo's

Must be the circles i run in.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, soon have to get ready to go out but will try to get to these. My answers to your questions in bold.

1. I don't think she has an obsession on it.  Believing it's happening is not the same as being obsessed, is it?  Do you have references that show leaders focusing on the power of satan more than the power of Christ in their talks?  They would be great to consider, given the topic.  Please share them. No, did I say that? If I did, I'm wrong. I just know there are a lot of talks about Satan. Google Satan and LDS to see pages and pages. 

2. As to your last statement, do you believe that satan only periodically bothers with us or are you saying that even though satan is constantly focused on keeping people from God, focusing on it doesn't help? Nope, focusing on another being coming between you and God all the time isn't good. Especially when you've no idea if it's real or not. Even in the Bible there is a recent article I read that the serpent in Genesis isn't even Satan but just a snake. I remember feeling like Satan was always after me and now that I don't know that he exists, my life is so much better. I rely heavily on my own moral compass and don't give it to something else to monitor over. If that makes sense. 

3. Please provide these 'things' so they can be discussed. I type out quickly and post thoughts and don't really study what I say. The only "thing" is about looking good. I remember Pres. Hinckley during a talk said what a great looking bunch they were to an audience. I think I've heard it a couple or more times. It always made me feel like "looks" were important to the church. Those were just my feelings, not saying anything against it per say, just got that feeling.  

4. I do remember it, but I don't have a reference.  Can you post it? http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/10/28/mormon-leader-tells-single-women-to-put-on-lipstick-and-stop-looking-like-men/

5. So some national media person says that Utah has the prettiest women and you interpret that as a negative mark against the church?  Or am I misunderstanding what you mean? When I first heard it, I immediately thought that it was mainly LDS women that looked good because Utah has a lot of LDS. I was TBM and was quite proud. Now, I see that it's becomes a burden, money and other. I wish women didn't feel the need to look good but I guess that's how they feel they will be more accepted. And I hope it's not their husbands, but will say that a lot of men have issues with women and weight problems, they add to the problem. 

 

Thanks for answering Tacenda, I appreciate it.  

[bluebell]

56 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I don't understand the trend.  It's vain and then there's the costly apparel thing.  And I swear, if one more of my Facebook friends tries to sell me Shakeology/Beach Body because they're a "health coach", I'm going to throw a doughnut at them.  I just want to say, "Do you really think no one else has approached me about it?  I see your 80 million posts about Shakeology.  I see your daily selfie with your shake.  If I were interested, I would approach you!!!"  

 

 

 

This is so true!!  That whole shakeology thing is such a racket.

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, SteveO said:

The "Thrive" lifestyle thing is getting stupid  ridiculous...

"Gonna change the world by crushing this 300lb bench press..."

 

Those things are crazy expensive!  $300 a month to wear a patch every day and it doesn't even help you lose weight or anything?!

[Avatar4321]

I don't know if this is a struggle for the saints in particular or the world at large.

I do know that the sisters of the church are among the most beautiful in the world. I've thought that since I went to BYU and noticed the difference between them and the women on the east coast. I think it has to do with the abundance of the Spirit among the saints. That by far is more important than anything surgery could provide

[bluebell]

So leaving out the question of whether or not satan has anything to do with it, do silly distractions like looks, hobbies, and our phones distance us from God in detrimental ways?   

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

So leaving out the question of whether or not satan has anything to do with it, do silly distractions like looks, hobbies, and our phones distance us from God in detrimental ways?   

Anything that becomes more important to us than God can detract from our relationship with Him. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" means anything we care more about than God. At least that's how I read it.