hope_for_things Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 11:07 AM, MorningStar said: I have a new friend who can be rather opinionated at times and I walked away feeling really irritated the other night. I don't mind when people have misconceptions about our beliefs, but when I try to explain and they insist that they are right, that drives me nuts! She made this comment that I didn't 100% follow my religion because I eat chocolate. I said, "We can eat chocolate." "No, because of caffeine." "We can have caffeine." "You're not supposed to have mind altering drugs." "Caffeine isn't a mind altering drug." "Yes it is." Would you all consider caffeine a mind altering drug? What the heck. So bizarre when people try to hold us to a higher standard than the church expects of us. Ugh. I explained a bit about how there were church members who assumed the prohibition against tea and coffee was about caffeine, but it was about those specific "hot drinks". She asked if I have iced coffee. No, I don't. I avoid all coffee and anything with tea leaves. It can't just be about the temperature of the drink or else we wouldn't have hot chocolate or soup. What can and can't a person do with respect to following the word of Wisdom. This is an interesting question. I think the answer that matters most is how does each individual interpret the WoW for themselves. The temple recommend interview just asks if you "keep the WoW". It sounds like its up to each person to interpret what keeping the WoW entails. Culturally when I was growing up many people in my circle of family and friends considered caffeinated drinks as taboo, so I followed the crowd. That taboo has been changing in many circles including in my circles of orthodox family and friends and even at BYU apparently. But I think to focus on these very specific rules is to miss the broader spirit of the WoW. The WoW is about living a prudent and heathly life that is respectful of the resources God has given and respectful of healthy and moderate living. Following the spirit of the WoW for me includes healthy eating and exercise and moderation. The knowledge we have today about what is good and bad for our bodies is light years ahead of the 19th century ideas. Ultimately, I wish as a culture we wouldn't focus on the specific do's and don'ts, but we would talk about the broader principles and then let people govern themselves. 1
ksfisher Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 1 minute ago, hope_for_things said: Ultimately, I wish as a culture we wouldn't focus on the specific do's and don'ts, but we would talk about the broader principles and then let people govern themselves. This is fine for adults, but children and youth need more clearly defined boundaries. You can't teach children (and even many teens) what if means to keep a commandment without explaining what breaking that commandment means. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 12 hours ago, MorningStar said: I've had caffeinated pop a few times and never felt anything. Maybe it doesn't have the much? Yeah, that is a process of repetition, then you can discern it.
thatjimguy Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Rock_N_Roll said: Are you sure about that? From a quick google I see 8oz. Coffee = 95mg of caffeine. 16oz. Rockstar = 160 mg. of caffeine. So, 16oz. coffee = 190mg. Of course energy drinks have a whole lot more sugar! https://www.caffeineinformer.com/the-coffee-and-energy-drink-double-standard Stand corrected. I did a search and got 35mg. That was years ago though.
hope_for_things Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: This is fine for adults, but children and youth need more clearly defined boundaries. You can't teach children (and even many teens) what if means to keep a commandment without explaining what breaking that commandment means. Actually I think this is important to establish these concepts at a very young age. At the same time I wouldn't recommend telling your child to go ahead and smoke cigarettes all you want as long as you consider yourself healthy, you're good. There would be rules in the family and expectations, but ultimately if we can divorce ourselves from the hyper sensitive checklist type of culture, we will be a much healthier as a group, physically, mentally and emotionally.
ksfisher Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Actually I think this is important to establish these concepts at a very young age. At the same time I wouldn't recommend telling your child to go ahead and smoke cigarettes all you want as long as you consider yourself healthy, you're good. There would be rules in the family and expectations, but ultimately if we can divorce ourselves from the hyper sensitive checklist type of culture, we will be a much healthier as a group, physically, mentally and emotionally. Out of curiosity, how many children have you raised?
hope_for_things Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Out of curiosity, how many children have you raised? I'm currently raising three kids. Also, let me recommend a good book on parenting that I've really enjoyed. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1897238452/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
ksfisher Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 32 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I'm currently raising three kids. Also, let me recommend a good book on parenting that I've really enjoyed. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1897238452/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Congratulations.
BlueDreams Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 4 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Coffee tastes a lot better than energy drinks, IMO. Meh, coffee tastes like dirt with sugar and creme. Energy drinks are nasty in a "nothing tastes real" sort of way. Both are gross, just in different ways IMO. With luv, BD 2
Maureen Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 19 hours ago, BlueDreams said: Meh, coffee tastes like dirt with sugar and creme. Energy drinks are nasty in a "nothing tastes real" sort of way. Both are gross, just in different ways IMO. To compare the taste of coffee to dirt would mean you know what dirt tastes like. M.
BlueDreams Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Maureen said: To compare the taste of coffee to dirt would mean you know what dirt tastes like. M. Well, I do garden..... 1
RevTestament Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 11:07 AM, MorningStar said: I have a new friend who can be rather opinionated at times and I walked away feeling really irritated the other night. I don't mind when people have misconceptions about our beliefs, but when I try to explain and they insist that they are right, that drives me nuts! She made this comment that I didn't 100% follow my religion because I eat chocolate. I said, "We can eat chocolate." "No, because of caffeine." "We can have caffeine." "You're not supposed to have mind altering drugs." "Caffeine isn't a mind altering drug." "Yes it is." Would you all consider caffeine a mind altering drug? What the heck. So bizarre when people try to hold us to a higher standard than the church expects of us. Ugh. I explained a bit about how there were church members who assumed the prohibition against tea and coffee was about caffeine, but it was about those specific "hot drinks". She asked if I have iced coffee. No, I don't. I avoid all coffee and anything with tea leaves. It can't just be about the temperature of the drink or else we wouldn't have hot chocolate or soup. The WoW does not discuss mind altering drugs. Further, I don't consider caffeine to be such a substance. I believe it mostly stimulates the adrenal gland and thereby promotes the production of cortisol. IMHO (uneducated) I believe it is mainly this cortisol which has a stimulating, waking effect on the mind. However, there are studies which call it a psychoactive drug. Many of the alerting effects of caffeine may be related to the action of the methylxanthine on serotonin neurons. The only likely mechanism of action of the methylxanthine is the antagonism at the level of adenosine receptors. Caffeine increases energy metabolism throughout the brain. Caffeine activates noradrenaline neurons and seems to affect the local release of dopamine. Lastly, the level of caffeine in chocolate is far lower than coffee or tea. Nevertheless, coffee has been identified as a hot drink expressly prohibited by the WoW which does not mention chocolate. Indeed chocolate is derived from a bean, and grains and seeds are called the staff of life in the WoW. But all foods are to be used with wisdom. Anything in excess may be harmful. I am grateful for mind-altering drugs as sometimes they are beneficial in surgery and medical treatment - pain killers are at the top of my list - I use them infrequently, however.
2BizE Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 When I joined the church, I asked my EQP about the WoW. He said to read section 89 and to follow. The next month at our PPI I invited him for dinner. After dinner we sat out on the back porch to talk. I went in and got us both a beer. I was astonished he wouldn't drink it. I told him i had read section 89 and it specifically stated in was good to drink mild drinks of barley. We looked it up together and he was at a loss of words. Apparently, he didn't know. So confusing.
Calm Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, 2BizE said: When I joined the church, I asked my EQP about the WoW. He said to read section 89 and to follow. The next month at our PPI I invited him for dinner. After dinner we sat out on the back porch to talk. I went in and got us both a beer. I was astonished he wouldn't drink it. I told him i had read section 89 and it specifically stated in was good to drink mild drinks of barley. We looked it up together and he was at a loss of words. Apparently, he didn't know. So confusing. I didn't know beer was made of barley until I don't know when. Probably finally realized it when I moved away from home and stopped wandering off when the commercials came on. Reading the WoW "mild drinks of barley" never really registered as anything save "barley water" that I understood to be quite dreadful from a Disney Mary Poppins song until I started to get involved in apologetics online. If you grow up in the Church, there is a very good chance you don't look on beer as a "mild" drink, especially if you have seen college kids bingeing, idiots at sports games, or other such drunkenness. Edited September 13, 2017 by Calm 1
Jeanne Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 2 hours ago, BlueDreams said: Well, I do garden..... When I was little...for some reason I sucked on little rocks...the dirt added a nice flavor to it...but hey, I also had a female cousin who ate potato bugs..
carbon dioxide Posted September 14, 2017 Posted September 14, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 12:21 PM, jkwilliams said: What's the difference between a good Mormon and a bad Mormon? The temperature of their caffeine. No. If a member wants to boil their Pepsi before they drink it, I don't have a problem with it.
SamIam Posted September 27, 2017 Posted September 27, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 12:05 AM, MorningStar said: I've had caffeinated pop a few times and never felt anything. Maybe it doesn't have the much? If you have acclimated to battery acid it is no surprise that caffeine has limited impact. Nonetheless, like you I can take 2 Excedrin for a headache just before bedtime and have no interruption in my sleep cycle. However, usually my headache will go away.... 1
CV75 Posted September 27, 2017 Posted September 27, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 1:07 PM, MorningStar said: I have a new friend who can be rather opinionated at times and I walked away feeling really irritated the other night. I don't mind when people have misconceptions about our beliefs, but when I try to explain and they insist that they are right, that drives me nuts! She made this comment that I didn't 100% follow my religion because I eat chocolate. I said, "We can eat chocolate." "No, because of caffeine." "We can have caffeine." "You're not supposed to have mind altering drugs." "Caffeine isn't a mind altering drug." "Yes it is." Would you all consider caffeine a mind altering drug? What the heck. So bizarre when people try to hold us to a higher standard than the church expects of us. Ugh. I explained a bit about how there were church members who assumed the prohibition against tea and coffee was about caffeine, but it was about those specific "hot drinks". She asked if I have iced coffee. No, I don't. I avoid all coffee and anything with tea leaves. It can't just be about the temperature of the drink or else we wouldn't have hot chocolate or soup. I often just tell people it's like Lent and not to worry about the chemistry. 1
Garden Girl Posted September 28, 2017 Posted September 28, 2017 On 9/12/2017 at 11:11 AM, thatjimguy said: ** Broken record alert. ** A lot of our problem with understanding the describing the Word of Wisdom comes from a lack of knowing how the Holy Spirit guides us. Hardcore drugs aren't on the list, but we avoid it. Energy Drinks aren't on the list, but we have been warned about them and they have TONS more caffeine than coffee (starbucks exception) We more we try to put anything in hard and fast rules, the more we don't use our minds, and the Holy Spirit, to guide us. To me this is essential in following the WoW in the context of today's world... using good ol' common sense and the Spirit... Lots of things available today weren't even in the vocabulary/reality/science when the WoW was originally given. We all know the underlying principles that we can apply to our behavior without having to delineate every single item... we know from today's science of nutrition that certain foods/drinks are beneficial for optimum health... and others that should be avoided... we don't need to be told every single thing... that's why it is the Word of Wisdom... Wisdom... GG 1
pogi Posted September 28, 2017 Posted September 28, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 11:07 AM, MorningStar said: I said, "We can eat chocolate." "No, because of caffeine." "We can have caffeine." "You're not supposed to have mind altering drugs." "Caffeine isn't a mind altering drug." "Yes it is." First of all, the phrase "mind-altering drugs" are not in the WoW. I think it is unfortunate that the phrase has been included as part of the WoW. While we all understand the spirit of what was meant, it is a very vague term that can mean different things to different people. It all boils down to definitions, which can get messy. What is a drug? One definition states "a medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body." By that definition, basically anything we ingest (food) is a drug. It is all chemical and has physiological and even psychological effects on our mind, mood, and body. Just see how your mood and psychology changes after eating a meal after fasting for 24 hours! Food can be a powerful mind-altering drug. As Hippocrates stated "let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." What does "mind-altering" even mean? Is there a distinction between "mind-altering" and "mood-altering". Not in my book, and not according to most medical practitioners. Another term for "mind-altering" drugs in the medical field is "psychoactive" drugs; and caffeine definitely falls under the umbrella of psychoactive (mind-altering) drug. So, I hate to say it MorningStar, but your friend is right...but so are you in that caffeine is not against the word of wisdom. Here is one definition of psychoactive drug - "A psychoactive drug, psychopharmaceutical, or psychotropic is a chemical substance that changes brain function and results in alterations in perception, mood, consciousness or behavior." There is no difference between a mood altering and a mind altering drug, they are the same thing. It is all brain chemistry that effects our mood, perception, etc. Again, yes, caffeine is a mind-altering drug along with alcohol, pot, meth...and sugar. Give a drop of sugar water to a new born baby and it has a powerful analgesic effect similar to morphine. Everything we eat is a mind-altering drug! It all effects dopamine levels and other "mind-altering" neurochemicals. That is why I hate its use related to the word of wisdom.
Investigator Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 On 9/13/2017 at 5:36 PM, 2BizE said: When I joined the church, I asked my EQP about the WoW. He said to read section 89 and to follow. The next month at our PPI I invited him for dinner. After dinner we sat out on the back porch to talk. I went in and got us both a beer. I was astonished he wouldn't drink it. I told him i had read section 89 and it specifically stated in was good to drink mild drinks of barley. We looked it up together and he was at a loss of words. Apparently, he didn't know. So confusing. Joseph Smith drank beer well after section 89. "Drank a glass of beer at Moissers [Frederick Moeser’s. " Joseph Smith's Journal, Joseph Smith Papers http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/journal-december-1842-june-1844-book-4-1-march-22-june-1844/144
bluebell Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 11 hours ago, Investigator said: Joseph Smith drank beer well after section 89. "Drank a glass of beer at Moissers [Frederick Moeser’s. " Joseph Smith's Journal, Joseph Smith Papers http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/journal-december-1842-june-1844-book-4-1-march-22-june-1844/144 The Word of Wisdom wasn't seen as a commandment but just as guidance for many years after it was received. It wasn't made a commandment until Brigham Young.
Investigator Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: The Word of Wisdom wasn't seen as a commandment but just as guidance for many years after it was received. It wasn't made a commandment until Brigham Young. Would you mind citing the revelation received by Brigham Young changing the word of wisdom to a commandment contradicting what Joseph received? I missed that one.
2BizE Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 2 hours ago, bluebell said: The Word of Wisdom wasn't seen as a commandment but just as guidance for many years after it was received. It wasn't made a commandment until Brigham Young. So now that it is a commandment, the verse still commands us to drink beer (mild drinks of barley).
bluebell Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 9 minutes ago, 2BizE said: So now that it is a commandment, the verse still commands us to drink beer (mild drinks of barley). There are mild barley drinks that are not beer.
Recommended Posts