bluebell Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 12 minutes ago, Investigator said: Would you mind citing the revelation received by Brigham Young changing the word of wisdom to a commandment contradicting what Joseph received? I missed that one. There is no such revelation recorded. Even Brigham Young wasn’t as strict as later prophets. Here is a great link that shows how it took 100 years for the WoW to be enforced as it is today. 1
Investigator Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, bluebell said: There is no such revelation recorded. Even Brigham Young wasn’t as strict as later prophets. Here is a great link that shows how it took 100 years for the WoW to be enforced as it is today. Joseph Smith was given revelations for the church which were recorded and accepted by the church by common consent. Quote D&C 21:4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; 5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. Without a revelation to change the revelations given to Joseph Smith, we should give heed to his words and commandments as he received them and not alter them. We should receive and keep them as if from Gods own mouth, as they surely are from his mouth. This certainly applies to the word of wisdom. Without further clarification from the Lord, we should apply them as written. Otherwise we are mingling the philosophies of men with scripture. Edited October 1, 2017 by Investigator clarification
bluebell Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Investigator said: Joseph Smith was given revelations for the church which were recorded and accepted by the church by common consent. Without a revelation to change the revelations given to Joseph Smith, we should give heed to his words and commandments as he received them and not alter them. We should receive and keep them as if from Gods own mouth, as they surely are from his mouth. This certainly applies to the word of wisdom. Without further clarification from the Lord, we should apply them as written. Otherwise we are mingling the philosophies of men with scripture. I know a few members that agree with you. The church doesn’t though. 1
Rivers Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 On 9/13/2017 at 5:36 PM, 2BizE said: When I joined the church, I asked my EQP about the WoW. He said to read section 89 and to follow. The next month at our PPI I invited him for dinner. After dinner we sat out on the back porch to talk. I went in and got us both a beer. I was astonished he wouldn't drink it. I told him i had read section 89 and it specifically stated in was good to drink mild drinks of barley. We looked it up together and he was at a loss of words. Apparently, he didn't know. So confusing. I wonder if any church leaders have ever addressed this part of the Word of Wissom.
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 On 9/11/2017 at 11:53 AM, MorningStar said: I've also read things about coffee and tea being a waste of space when life-sustaining food could be grown there, such as cocoa beans for life-sustaining chocolate chip cookies, candy bars, brownies, etc.. Indeed. I recommend having 6 or 7 varieties and sources of chocolate in your food storage because I reckon people will trade just about anything for chocolate. 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 On 9/13/2017 at 5:36 PM, 2BizE said: When I joined the church, I asked my EQP about the WoW. He said to read section 89 and to follow. The next month at our PPI I invited him for dinner. After dinner we sat out on the back porch to talk. I went in and got us both a beer. I was astonished he wouldn't drink it. I told him i had read section 89 and it specifically stated in was good to drink mild drinks of barley. We looked it up together and he was at a loss of words. Apparently, he didn't know. So confusing. What's to confuse? Kudos to the Eqp for adhering to the words of the living prophets. If we need a barley fix, there are non-alcoholic beers and Pero.
PeterPear Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/12/the-energy-drink-epidemic?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/liahona/1990/03/caffeine-the-subtle-addiction?lang=eng
2BizE Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 13 hours ago, bluebell said: There are mild barley drinks that are not beer. Yes there are today, but back in the 1830s the mild barley drink was beer. It was a staple of life back then.
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 2 hours ago, 2BizE said: Yes there are today, but back in the 1830s the mild barley drink was beer. It was a staple of life back then. Barley water is as old as beer. 1
bluebell Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 7 hours ago, 2BizE said: Yes there are today, but back in the 1830s the mild barley drink was beer. It was a staple of life back then. Like TSS said, barley water has been around since the greeks and has been popular in many different cultures through the centuries, including English.
Investigator Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 I think it is important to inform ourselves relative to what the man who received the revelations, the man who understood the Lord's intent better them better than anyone, Joseph Smith, did as a result of receiving the revelations. Do we have a record of Joseph Smith drinking "barley water" subsequent to receiving the word of wisdom? No. But there is ample evidence that Joseph along with the rest of the saints drank beer and wine. After Joseph received the warning to not buy wine for the sacrament from his enemies, did Joseph and the church drink water for the sacrament (Section 27)? No. For even that very meeting that was the context for the revelation they made their own wine. Furthermore, the church had a wine mission in St George which produced thousands of gallons of wine each year for the church to use in the sacrament. In section 27 the Lord himself states that he will drink wine when he comes to the earth. Additionally, the word of wisdom prescribes the use of wine for the sacrament not proscribes it. If the Latter-day saints plan on being participants in the wedding feast that will be hosted by the Savior, they had better get over their aversion to drinking a little wine. Quote D&C 58: 8 And also that a feast of fat things might be prepared for the poor; yea, a feast of fat things, of wine on the lees well refined, that the earth may know that the mouths of the prophets shall not fail; Wine on the lees, by the way, is a special type of wine that is left on the lees (dead yeast and by products of fermentation) to produce a special taste. Kind of hard to say that it will be grape juice.
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 When Jesus says we can drink wine again, make mine a good Sauvignon blanc. 1
Investigator Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 51 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: When Jesus says we can drink wine again, make mine a good Sauvignon blanc. Please show me where he says we can't drink it now? For the Sacraments anyway. Is a wedding feast a sacrament?
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 SEE https://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-word-of-wisdom?lang=eng To us it doesn't really matter what we use in the Sacrament. But water is the preferred liquid, until Jesus tells us otherwise.
Investigator Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Show me a scripture/revelation where Jesus says water is the preferred liquid. Section 89, given over 2 years after section 27, prescribes wine for the sacrament. Quote D&C 89:5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
thesometimesaint Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 In 1921, the Lord inspired Church president Heber J. Grant to call on all Saints to live the Word of Wisdom to the letter by completely abstaining from all alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco. SEE https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-heber-j-grant/chapter-21?lang=eng BTW The LDS believe president Heber J. Grant was every bit a Prophet, as Joseph Smith Jr. was. 1
Investigator Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Quote BTW The LDS believe president Heber J. Grant was every bit a Prophet, as Joseph Smith Jr. was. I know they do and it is very sad. In the sermon on the mount the Savior gave the standard by which you can discern true prophets. "By their fruits ye shall know them". So lets put it to the test. Lets compare the revelations of Joseph Smith to the revelations of Heber J Grant. Oh wait, we can't. Heber never received any revelations. As for me I will "seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under [Joseph Smith's] hand." I believe President Grant was inspired on occasion but he never rose to the stature of a prophet of the level of Joseph Smith. He, by his own admission, never did meet with the Savior. Quote Heber J Grant [October 4, 1942] I have never prayed to see the Savior, I know of men– Apostles– who have seen the Savior more than once. I have prayed to the Lord for the inspiration of His Spirit to guide me, and I have told him that I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestation to them, they felt their importance, their greatness.” (The Diaries of Heber J. Grant, 1880-1945, Abridged. Salt Lake City: Privately Published, 2010, p. 468.) If given the opportunity to accept the interpretation of the word of wisdom at the counsel of Joseph or Heber, I would choose Joseph every time. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah. Edited October 3, 2017 by Investigator
bluebell Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Investigator said: I know they do and it is very sad. In the sermon on the mount the Savior gave the standard by which you can discern true prophets. "By their fruits ye shall know them". So lets put it to the test. Lets compare the revelations of Joseph Smith to the revelations of Heber J Grant. Oh wait, we can't. Heber never received any revelations. As for me I will "seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under [Joseph Smith's] hand." I believe President Grant was inspired on occasion but he never rose to the stature of a prophet of the level of Joseph Smith. He, by his own admission, never did meet with the Savior. If given the opportunity to accept the interpretation of the word of wisdom at the counsel of Joseph of Heber, I would choose Joseph every time. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah. There are a lot more fruits of a prophet than just the revelations they receive. But believe whatever you want, it really doesn't concern us.
thesometimesaint Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 8 hours ago, Investigator said: I know they do and it is very sad. In the sermon on the mount the Savior gave the standard by which you can discern true prophets. "By their fruits ye shall know them". So lets put it to the test. Lets compare the revelations of Joseph Smith to the revelations of Heber J Grant. Oh wait, we can't. Heber never received any revelations. As for me I will "seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under [Joseph Smith's] hand." I believe President Grant was inspired on occasion but he never rose to the stature of a prophet of the level of Joseph Smith. He, by his own admission, never did meet with the Savior. If given the opportunity to accept the interpretation of the word of wisdom at the counsel of Joseph of Heber, I would choose Joseph every time. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah. You need to read your Scriptures, including the Bible, sometime. It is replete with factual errors, omissions, mistranslations, human faults/foibles, and sins. But the LDS still recognizes them as Prophets. Even in the Bible there are plenty of times where it is not referred to as Revelation. Even Joseph Smith himself claimed "a Prophet is only a Prophet when acting as such". You are free to do that. But that is contrary to what he said the Saints believe. "As for me and my house we will follow the Lord". You don't read like an "Investigator", but you do read like someone who has already made up their mind. More's the pity.
pogi Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 9:17 AM, Investigator said: I think it is important to inform ourselves relative to what the man who received the revelations, the man who understood the Lord's intent better them better than anyone, Joseph Smith, did as a result of receiving the revelations. That will not be helpful in determining if the WoW is speaking of beer or barley water, because the WoW was not given as a commandment to Joseph. He was known to ride his horse down main street smoking a cigar after the revelation was received - clearly against the WoW, but also clearly not against the commandments of God. So, the fact that Joseph was known to drink beer does not further your argument that "mild barley drinks" refers to beer.
pogi Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 3:09 PM, Investigator said: I know they do and it is very sad. In the sermon on the mount the Savior gave the standard by which you can discern true prophets. "By their fruits ye shall know them". So lets put it to the test. Lets compare the revelations of Joseph Smith to the revelations of Heber J Grant. Oh wait, we can't. Heber never received any revelations. As for me I will "seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under [Joseph Smith's] hand." I believe President Grant was inspired on occasion but he never rose to the stature of a prophet of the level of Joseph Smith. He, by his own admission, never did meet with the Savior. If given the opportunity to accept the interpretation of the word of wisdom at the counsel of Joseph or Heber, I would choose Joseph every time. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah. Are you a member or an investigator? You believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?
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