Is it sometimes better to leave the church?

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree.

But for those who sincerely believe that God is telling them to leave, for example, our perspectives aren't valid.  Does God expect/require people to go against what they sincerely believe is right (even if they are actually wrong)?  

One's sincerely believing he should leave the Church is not tantamount to God leading him out of it. People sincerely believe all manner of things that are wrong or unwise. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

Well, Scott. If I hadn't stepped back from the Church for a short time, I wouldn't have been alive long enough to find out that his burden is light. I'm sure grateful that God is able to do his own work and answered my prayers and the pleadings of my family in a way that allowed me to live and then to rediscover the Gospel in all its glorious light without all the baggage I had grown up with. 

I'm grateful for that as well. 

[BlueDreams]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

My question is, was McConkie's journey out of the faith necessary for him to have the testimony he eventually was able to find?  Or, do you think, if he had just gone along with his family and done what he was supposed/expected to do that eventually he would have found a testimony anyway?

I think sometimes there's need for space to reorient oneself. Something I've seen that may not apply directly with this, is that several faith crises are also heavily tied with some sort of emotional pain and trauma. This often isn't directly tied to mormonism (abusive home, broken marriage, other forms of trauma, mental disorders, etc...as well as other personal issues like addiction) but it can also be hard to differentiate when one's emotional landscape has been thrown so askew that everything can become tainted. LDS cultural things can become triggering. That may simply take time and space to figure out. And that may include time and space away from mormonism. 

Could his journey have been had without leaving? Possibly...though he wouldn't be the same man or approach mormonism the same way. I've noticed when working with my clients and at times brushing on faith, my approach to church and faith are often very very different from those I'm working with. There's more cultural assumptions taken as practical doctrine. There can be less flexibility at times. And though our church openly welcomes all good from any corner....they can be a little hesitant to take in new good or share in others good. Even the ones who are in some form of faith transition or crises or whatever else often seem to be reacting half to culture-as-doctrine than to actual faith and gospel. 

I get a sense from his name and pedigree that he would have been pretty steeped in cultural mormonism. He may have found a testimony, but I don't know if he would have found it with the same dynamics that were needed.    

 

With luv,

BD

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think the notion that some people are better off leaving the Church for a time and then returning -- or even "taking a break" from Church activity -- is dangerous doctrine. 

It isn't so much that people are "better off" leaving and returning as that some people will in fact leave and that some will return.  Those are facts.  We need to view that situation and the required repentance with compassion and understanding, because we may find ourselves or our children in that same boat -- just as the father of the Prodigal Son found himself rejoicing at the return of his wastrel son, a son a great deal wiser than when he opted to leave (Luke 15).  We are here in this life to learn by direct experience and to meet our challenges.  None of us will do so without error.

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

One's sincerely believing he should leave the Church is not tantamount to God leading him out of. People sincerely believe all manner of things that are wrong or unwise. 

I haven't been talking about God leading anyone out of the church.  Maybe we've been misunderstanding each other.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I haven't been talking about God leading anyone out of the church.  Maybe we've been misunderstanding each other.

I didn't say you have.

I've seen that idea expressed, though. But don't ask me to document it, because I can't at the moment.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It isn't so much that people are "better off" leaving and returning as that some people will in fact leave and that some will return.  Those are facts.  We need to view that situation and the required repentance with compassion and understanding, because we may find ourselves or our children in that same boat -- just as the father of the Prodigal Son found himself rejoicing at the return of his wastrel son, a son a great deal wiser than when he opted to leave (Luke 15).  We are here in this life to learn by direct experience and to meet our challenges.  None of us will do so without error.

I haven't denied that it happens. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that leaving the Church for a time is advice that should be endorsed or dispensed with regularity.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This is why I wonder if organized religion is even a good thing. And why not just a faith, and go to whichever church you want without the message that it is the one true religion. 

 

Organized Churches are the design of a loving God, to care for the needs of it members. I grew up in a very small poor Church who could not meet the needs of it members. I know of no other Faith that is our size, who provides for both the temporal and Spiritual needs of it's members. There is either a Church which is true, or correct, or there is none, each going it's own way. Each Sunday, I drive five miles to Church, and pass seven Churches (three of the same Faith) with 7-10 cars at each. Two used to share the same parking lot, but as a result of a family squabble, a fence was erected down the middle. These small, independent Churches have no, Bishop Storehouses. No family counseling, no children's programs. This is not the case with every Church, there are mega Churches where Pastors make millions a year, and have little or no time for one on one ministering. Organization is how individual mystery happens. Jesus and his Apostles warned what happens when "men have itching ears, and seek out teachers to themselves". The Apostles spent every waking moment, and their entire lives to keep and protect the Church which Jesus Christ established and entrusted to them. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I haven't denied that it happens. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that leaving the Church for a time is advice that should be endorsed or dispensed with regularity.

Yes, but those leaving are not likely to think that it is only a temporary abeyance, but more of a permanent thing -- only later discovering that it may have been a mistake.  Being respectful of that decision may leave doors open which might otherwise be closed.  I try to be very respectful of such decisions, as long as they are not accompanied by a lot of balderdash or lame excuses.  Those leaving need to be as respectful as those of us who remain.  Free agency doesn't need to be exercised with a vengeance.

[carbon dioxide]

For some people, perhaps leaving the Church and seeing that the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence and returning to the Church turned out to be a blessing for them.  However these instances are more of the exception than the rule.  Better to not get involved with cocaine than experimenting with cocaine for a time to find out it does not lead to a good outcome and then work to get out of the hole one has dug for themselves.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I haven't denied that it happens. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that leaving the Church for a time is advice that should be endorsed or dispensed with regularity.

This isn't advice I've ever given anyone. I don't recommend that anyone leave the Church. But, I also recognize that it can sometimes be better for their eventual spiritual development towards the gospel if they do. 

Even when explaining to people how to remove their names, I always emphasize that I do *not* recommend that they do it. But if they are bitter, and angry, and abusive towards visitors, and threatening legal action if anyone ever comes again, I try to explain (if they let me) that they need to remove their name from the list to ensure this. Rarely do they follow through with this.

[pogi]

Another example of this is in the thread about the lesbian couple who divorced in order to be baptized.  The one girl became unbearably depressed in the church trying to suppress her SSA .  She eventually left the church and married another woman.  Both women expressed that they felt that the Lord led them to each other because they needed each other to discover (and rediscover) the church.  This might just be their personal narrative they create to make sense of their experience, but is it possible that there could be some truth to it?  Perhaps we are too closed minded as to the possible paths to God.

In addiction, sometimes the best thing for the addict is to hit rock bottom.  In other words, sometimes we need to fall down before we become humble enough to seek the help of God in pulling ourselves back up.  For some, that humility experience and reality check might be found outside the church.  God is not a helicopter parent, he lets us fall for our own good sometimes.

Edited August 25, 2017 by pogi

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Organized Churches are the design of a loving God, to care for the needs of it members. I grew up in a very small poor Church who could not meet the needs of it members. I know of no other Faith that is our size, who provides for both the temporal and Spiritual needs of it's members. There is either a Church which is true, or correct, or there is none, each going it's own way. Each Sunday, I drive five miles to Church, and pass seven Churches (three of the same Faith) with 7-10 cars at each. Two used to share the same parking lot, but as a result of a family squabble, a fence was erected down the middle. These small, independent Churches have no, Bishop Storehouses. No family counseling, no children's programs. This is not the case with every Church, there are mega Churches where Pastors make millions a year, and have little or no time for one on one ministering. Organization is how individual mystery happens. Jesus and his Apostles warned what happens when "men have itching ears, and seek out teachers to themselves". The Apostles spent every waking moment, and their entire lives to keep and protect the Church which Jesus Christ established and entrusted to them. 

Best testimony I've heard in a long time, very practical and a lot of what I think too. I drive past non LDS churches and see few cars. I've sat in on some and thought, this isn't home. You are right, we have so many safeguards in the church. I shouldn't worry if it's all correct or not. But then I still feel I'm doing trade offs. Or where is my integrity? Yes the church can be so much for people, it can be like a friend or family that one never had. It can help pay the bills if you run into a snag. It can help those that cannot follow the commandments well without structure. 

The church sure can be a lot of wonderful things. But for some it can be harmful in other areas. I think the ones that do the best in the church, don't take it so seriously and enjoy the social. Because the ones that stress about being saviours of others, IOW, going to the temple often, or those that stress if they break a commandment or do something that isn't approaching perfection. These can cause stress. 

[Buckeye]

5 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

So you don't think excommunications are ever appropriate? Because that's fundamentally the decision they are taking - that some people are better off not being in those covenants. If we are willing to do it in a court of love, we shouldn't be surprised if God directs people to do the same to the point they are able to both repent and accept the doctrines. Not everyone is in a place where they can do that.

Now it is dangerous in one sense of course. In that I agree. Many who leave don't come back. However there was a study by the church I believe in the late 80's or early 90's that something like 40% of all active members surveyed had been inactive for some period. So I don't think this is as uncommon as we might initially think. Of course since then there have been a lot of significant social changes. I don't know if that makes it more dangerous or less though.

Bingo. Obviously the church thinks that some members are better off without the church's covenants (at least for a time) or it would not excommunicate them. 

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

This article is going around the internet and I thought it was interesting.  It's about a man who left mormonism in his teens, spent some time as an atheist/buddhist, and then returned to mormonism again (after having a very turbulent relationship with it for many years).

How An LDS Man Related to Apostles Left Mormonism....and Became Mormon Again

In the last paragraph in the condescended interview he says this-

"But his time spent outside of Mormonism was not without spiritual development. In fact, in McConkie's case, it helped him realize the perspective of others and change how he viewed Mormonism. 

"As I learned to take on the perspective of a European, of an atheist Spaniard, or you know, whatever perspective I was conversing with, I think I started practicing taking the perspective of my father more deeply and my family of origin, my Church," McConkie told NPR. "And I think that was the beginning I think of a kind of compassion that edge of these people are crazy just started to smooth. And this new voice was coming up in me saying these people have a perspective. People are wise. People mean well. And I would do well to listen to their perspective. And that was a really significant shift for me growing up in Europe."

My question is, was McConkie's journey out of the faith necessary for him to have the testimony he eventually was able to find?  Or, do you think, if he had just gone along with his family and done what he was supposed/expected to do that eventually he would have found a testimony anyway?

I know that if I had been born Mormon I would have left in my 20's

Whether I would have come back is anyone's guess, but I don't think so.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

This isn't advice I've ever given anyone. I don't recommend that anyone leave the Church. But, I also recognize that it can sometimes be better for their eventual spiritual development towards the gospel if they do. 

Even when explaining to people how to remove their names, I always emphasize that I do *not* recommend that they do it. But if they are bitter, and angry, and abusive towards visitors, and threatening legal action if anyone ever comes again, I try to explain (if they let me) that they need to remove their name from the list to ensure this. Rarely do they follow through with this.

More viscerally satisfying to verbally vent to someone and make him/her feel uncomfortable than it is to quietly do the paperwork, I suppose.

Edited to add: Or perhaps they are hedging their bets.

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I know that if I had been born Mormon I would have left in my 20's

Whether I would have come back is anyone's guess, but I don't think so.

My intuition tells me that coming back once one has left is very rare.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My intuition tells me that coming back once one has left is very rare.

Depends on what you mean by "left".  Clark Goble posted the stat of 40% of active membership having been inactive at sometime in their lives.  That is not "very rare".

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Depends on what you mean by "left".  Clark Goble posted the stat of 40% of active membership having been inactive at sometime in their lives.  That is not "very rare".

A lot of people classified as "inactive" or "less active" don't realize that they are. I learned that one time when doing a story on priesthood reactivation efforts. So I question the proportion of this 40 percent that were what could be considered disaffected.

[JLHPROF]

I believe that God often has paths for people outside of the Church.
I reject the idea that the path to God doesn't end in the Church (or more precisely the temple).

I don't believe that it is better for those who have found the path back to God to then leave that path, but for those who are still searching for the path it may take a lifetime until the Church is the place for them.

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think the ploughing scripture has more to do with the Israelites moaning about Egypt and Lot's wife wanting to go back to Sodom. It is more about craving the pleasures of Babylon while trying to build Zion.

Oh, let me plagiarize from Smac in peace....

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

........................................................... This might just be their personal narrative they create to make sense of their experience, but is it possible that there could be some truth to it?  Perhaps we are too closed minded as to the possible paths to God.

In addiction, sometimes the best thing for the addict is to hit rock bottom.  In other words, sometimes we need to fall down before we become humble enough to seek the help of God in pulling ourselves back up.  For some, that humility experience and reality check might be found outside the church.  God is not a helicopter parent, he lets us fall for our own good sometimes.

Yes, and there are plenty of highly moral and very intelligent people outside the LDS faith who do very well, thank you.  If someone wants to leave and make a home in another faith that might not be an entirely bad thing.  It is not wise to look down on other faiths, as though they have no redeeming qualities.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and there are plenty of highly moral and very intelligent people outside the LDS faith who do very well, thank you.  If someone wants to leave and make a home in another faith that might not be an entirely bad thing.  It is not wise to look down on other faiths, as though they have no redeeming qualities.

100% agree. And I think many missionaries stumble across many non members and think, these guys are even nicer than Mormons in some cases. That must be an eyeopener. 

[Glenn101]

14 hours ago, stemelbow said:

We're just going to keep assuming God is confined to the Church rot, then?  I mean come on.  Just because strait ist he gate and narrow the way, we also know that God has a way to save and exalt any soul whether they live their life on earth as a Mormon or not. 

So, Christ did not organize a church and set in it apostles, prophets, etc.? He did not appear to Joseph Smith and through him restore that church?

From a scriptural standpoint I do not see a benefit for anyone leaving the church to walk other paths. There are things that they cannot do in those other paths that they can do in the church. If that were not the case, then there would be no need for a church. But Christ established one for a reason. He established the temple for a reason.

If a person is unable to keep the covenants that he makes in the church at baptism and in the temple, then it probably is better that he or she remove themselves from under those burdens. But in so doing they would also be removing themselves from the protection and blessings obtainable only through keeping those covenants.

Jesus said, " Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) As Scott Lloyd noted earlier Jesus did not talk about several paths to God. He spoke of only one strait path.

It is wonderful news when a person who has left the church later returns after gaining a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I recall something about the ninety and nine and the one. Something about a lot of joy.

I agree with Robert that we as family, friends, and/or neighbors should treat those who do leave with respect ..... and love. Establishing a loving atmosphere within our homes, wards, stakes, etc. will help those who have strayed to feel safe when and if they decide to walk back into our religious lives, and just maybe encourage them to want to rejoin us.

Glenn

Edited August 26, 2017 by Glenn101
Always think of something more to say.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My intuition tells me that coming back once one has left is very rare.

I don't think that it is rare at all.  In fact, whether we are talking about well-known former Mormons like Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Don Bradley, and Maxine Hanks, or just ordinary folk who don't make much of a splash. a lot of people seem to return.  I don't know how we would go about assembling stats on that phenomenon, but it might prove interesting to find out what percentage return, and why.