In Latter Times Some Shall Forbid Marriage

[Gray]

On 8/18/2017 at 0:55 PM, mfbukowski said:

In other words, you have no evidence that it was a general policy.

At that time, not understanding homosexuality, I might have recommended the same thing myself quite frankly.   I still don't fully understand how men can father children with a woman, indicating at least some level of physical ....... attraction..... and then feel only fulfilled in becoming gay.

I don't want to go back to that old argument- but I can see how heterosexual men might have the same understanding I did.  I recall an old TV ad from the 70's which preached "Try it! You'll like it!"     Of course the context was entirely different

So I don't think that recommendation was ever church policy in any way- just a misunderstanding of heterosexual leaders at the time, which was ended by President Hinkley.

On the old version of the "Mormon and Gay" site. they said something to the effect that the church no longer recommends that gay people enter heterosexual marriages as a means of changing their orientation. A lot of news stories reporting on it echoed that language. The site has recently changed though and I can't find that language anymore.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Gray

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I agree with your belief.  The mistake I made was thinking that the church was run by revelation.  Like I said, I was pretty naive at the theme.  I haven't made that mistake again, ever.

You make it again every time you bring it up.  You are obsessed by it and you cannot give it up.  That is your decision.  It's inside you and keeping it must do something for you or you would give it up and get on with life.  You make that mistake every day you post here.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 8/17/2017 at 0:04 AM, california boy said:

 

At the very core of the gospel is the Plan of Happiness.  And at the very core of that Plan of Happiness is the family.  You take eternal marriage and the importance of family out of that plan and you have nothing.  In fact the whole reason for the gospel collapses.  Yet, in these latter days, when the church forbids gay couples from marrying, that is exactly what that policy does to gay members.  It takes away from them the Plan of Happiness simply because they are gay.  It excludes them from the very fundamental core of the gospel in exactly the same way as past policies took away the Plan of Happiness simply because they were black.

Gay marriage doesn't exists in the plan of Happiness. In Genesis 2:24 God said,  "a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife". The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”  In Matthew 19:45 Jesus taught "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?" Nothing in the scriptures contradicts what our living prophets tell us about marriage. Gay marriage is something that we humans invented, not God.  

 

On 8/17/2017 at 0:04 AM, california boy said:

 

 According to the documents posted on Mormon leaks 70% of the young people are leaving the church.  Many of them point specifically to the policy concerning gays as the reason they can no long in good consciousness stay involved in the church.  

The churches that allow gay marriage aren't doing better.  The Episcopal church is dying. There is no reason to believe that gay marriage is going to increase church attendance.   

[SamuelTheLamanite]

The scriptures teach that "some shall depart from the faith" Tim. 4:1 

[Calm]

n ever mind

Edited August 20, 2017 by Calm

[california boy]

8 hours ago, USU78 said:

One could argue the naivete keeps rollin' along, albeit in less advantageous tracks.

What of my question of rehashing? If you're so pleased with your choice and needn't rehash for your own benefit, why the incessant rehashing?

People frequently ask me my opinion and why I have come to that belief.  I am more than happy to tell them.  I think it is important that others know that just because a church leader tells you something comes from God, it may very well not.  And if you rely on that kind of promise, the consequences to your life and to those around you could be devastating  

[california boy]

8 hours ago, Sevenbak said:

Wrest all you want, but the official interpretation is clear.  Read the footnotes.

I choose to read exactly what the Bible says it was.  I know.  Kind of weird that I would follow the teachings of the Bible over someone's footnotes.

Quote

 

Ezekiel 16:49-50

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw fit.
 

 

 

[USU78]

15 minutes ago, california boy said:

People frequently ask me my opinion and why I have come to that belief.  I am more than happy to tell them.  I think it is important that others know that just because a church leader tells you something comes from God, it may very well not.  And if you rely on that kind of promise, the consequences to your life and to those around you could be devastating  

 

And that's why you bring it up in nearly every thread. You wish the world to know.

So ... you are an evangelist. Against Mormons and things Mormon.

Which makes you ... an ... 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Gay marriage doesn't exists in the plan of Happiness. In Genesis 2:24 God said,  "a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife". The Hebrew word “wife,” according to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “connotes one who is a female human being.”  In Matthew 19:45 Jesus taught "Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?" Nothing in the scriptures contradicts what our living prophets tell us about marriage. Gay marriage is something that we humans invented, not God.  

 

The churches that allow gay marriage aren't doing better.  The Episcopal church is dying. There is no reason to believe that gay marriage is going to increase church attendance.   

I don't think that anyone is arguing that marriage can not be between a man and a woman.  I certainly have not made that argument.

And yes, the church currently excludes gay couples from the Plan of Happiness, which I believe is exactly what I wrote.  Heck, the church kicks gay couples completely out of the church, let alone including them in the Plan of Happiness.

I also never stated that allowing gay couples to be a part of the Plan of Happiness will increase church attendance.  

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

 

And that's why you bring it up in nearly every thread. You wish the world to know.

So ... you are an evangelist. Against Mormons and things Mormon.

Which makes you ... an ... 

Should I be whitewashing Mormon  history and if I don't then I am an...

Yeah, that approach is working out so well for the church isn't it.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't think that anyone is arguing that marriage can not be between a man and a woman.  I certainly have not made that argument.

And yes, the church currently excludes gay couples from the Plan of Happiness, which I believe is exactly what I wrote.  Heck, the church kicks gay couples completely out of the church, let alone including them in the Plan of Happiness.

I also never stated that allowing gay couples to be a part of the Plan of Happiness will increase church attendance.  

Gay marriage doesn't exists for God, gay marriage is a human invention. What modern prophets are teaching about marriage is consistent with ancient scriptures.  

[california boy]

16 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Gay marriage doesn't exists for God, gay marriage is a human invention. What modern prophets are teaching about marriage is consistent with ancient scriptures.  

So was the church's teachings and prohibiting interracial marriages. 

[USU78]

50 minutes ago, california boy said:

Should I be whitewashing Mormon  history and if I don't then I am an...

Yeah, that approach is working out so well for the church isn't it.

Don't sugar-coat. Name your agenda.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

35 minutes ago, california boy said:

So was the church's teachings and prohibiting interracial marriages. 

We have Numbers 12:1-15 and the Official Declaration 2. What scripture do we have for gay marriage?  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

God has never revealed that gay marriage is acceptable, and likely never will

[SamuelTheLamanite]

california boy a message tells me that I only need 25 posts to create topics. I will create a new topic on why gay marriage is not acceptable in the eyes of God. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/19/2017 at 1:29 AM, california boy said:

Oh not at all.  virtually every church had a similar program going to cure the gays.  We heard from the leaders of some of these other programs at the Evergreen conferences.  They would tout their incredible success and tell us all that we should follow that same path. One of the biggest groups was Exodus International. Here is an article about the ultimate collapse of that group.  Most of the other groups have closed as well. Evergreen is no longer around.  But a similar program called NorthStar is still around.  Same goal, different promises.  I really no nothing about NorthStar.  I have never attended their meetings or studied their beliefs.

For some reason the name Bob Erickson sounds familiar.  I don't know him, but it is possible that I have met him.  The  Evergreen group that I was involved in was a very tight group.  I still remember the night when the leader of the group announced that he was leaving Evergreen and moving in with his boyfriend.  Then one by one guys announced that they were no longer going to be involved in Evergreen.  That night ended up being the last night.  We still keep loosely in touch with each other.  I feel like we bonded over a very shared experience.

A couple of years later, an elderly couple contacted me and asked if I would be involved in helping to restart the group.  They had been called by their stake president to take on this assignment.  I was happy to meet with them and offer any guidance I could.  I was also clear that I didn't think Evergreen changes anyone, but I think it is good that these gay Mormons understand that they are not alone.  They need a safe place to talk about the turmoil in their lives.  The group tried meeting a couple of times.  Only one other person showed up.  It didn't last.  Sweet couple with good intentions.  

 

Evergreen was absorbed by North Star.

Bob is a good friend and was a presenter at several Evergreen conferences in the 90s. He published under the name Brad Anderson. Sister Gui and I met Bob under miraculous circumstances in 1973 and introduced him to the gospel by giving him a copy of the Book of Mormon. 

He went through a period of inactivity after his mission and contracted AIDS, but since has returned to serve in his branch presidency, ward bishopric IIRC, and as branch mission leader. He is actively involved daily with the missionaries and members of his branch and is an inspiration to all who know him. I have his permission to share this from a personal letter from 2012:

Quote

I was involved with the organization in the 90's.  Just when I thought I was ready to start thinking about marriage, I got sick, had to go on disability in January of 1996 - 16 years ago - I should be dead.  This year marks my 25th year since finding out I was HIV+ and most likely became infected in the Fall of 1979.  So I am somewhere between 25 and 33 years of living with this virus.  When people ask me if I believe in miracles I tell them no.  I don't believe, I know!  I am a miracle....I don't consider myself gay, because gay is a lifestyle.  I don't consider myself a homosexual because that is participating but not living a gay lifestyle.  I consider myself a child of God who struggles with same-gender attraction, but, I am many things before I categorize my struggle as all I am about.  I'm a good neighbor, I am a High Priest, I am a son and a brother, I am a Latter Day Saint, I am talented in gardening and landscaping, I have 3 birds and a dog, I am so much more than a man struggling - I as everyone else has a cross to bear, a thorn in my side, but it won't stop me from progressing and making it back home to my Heavenly Parents.

About his Facebook page:

Quote

I currently serve as the Branch Mission Leader and as you can tell if you have been keeping up with my posts, I enjoy spending a lot of time doing missionary work. I love to see the Gospel of Jesus Christ change hearts and lives as they gain a testimony of this, the Lord's work and enter the waters of baptism covenanting to follow Jesus the rest of their lives. I have a testimony that Jesus can change hearts and lives from the inside out! Over the years He has been patient and loving. He has been there to guide me through times of deep darkness and at other times through incredibly bright light. I am thankful to my Savior for always being there to lead me and guide me. I am thankful that after those times of darkness he has dusted me by and through His atonement and made me whole again. I am thankful to now be walking in His incredible light!

More recently, he said this about you:

Quote

Years ago Church leaders did encourage men with same gender attraction to marry but the Church has since changed it's counsel to Leaders. In looking up this current counsel I found this bulletin sent out to Church Leaders where it states: "Marriage should not be viewed as a way to resolve homosexual problems. The lives of others should not be damaged by entering a marriage where such concerns exist. Encouraging members to cultivate heterosexual feelings as a way to resolve homosexual problems generally leads them to frustration and discouragement. However, some people have reported that once they are freed from homosexual problems, heterosexual feelings have gradually emerged."

It is sad that this brother had received such erroneous counsel. I am sure that he has suffered greatly as a result of following this counsel and I can understand his anger towards the Church.

I have a copy of the1992  guidebook he quoted. 

If you would ever like to talk with Bob, I can get you in touch with him.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, Gray said:

On the old version of the "Mormon and Gay" site. they said something to the effect that the church no longer recommends that gay people enter heterosexual marriages as a means of changing their orientation. A lot of news stories reporting on it echoed that language. The site has recently changed though and I can't find that language anymore.

A guidebook for Priesthood leaders from 1992 instructs them not to recommend heterosexual marriage as a remedy for same-sex attraction.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Evergreen was absorbed by North Star.

Bob is a good friend and was a presenter at several Evergreen conferences in the 90s. He published under the name Brad Anderson.

I have his permission to share this from a personal letter from 2012:

Sister Gui and I met Bob under miraculous circumstances in 1973 and introduced him to the gospel by giving him a copy of the Book of Mormon. 

I think the reason some people fly into a rage about the term "same-sex" attraction is that they resent attitudes held by people like Bob. 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Evergreen was absorbed by North Star.

Bob is a good friend and was a presenter at several Evergreen conferences in the 90s. He published under the name Brad Anderson. Sister Gui and I met Bob under miraculous circumstances in 1973 and introduced him to the gospel by giving him a copy of the Book of Mormon. 

He went through a period of inactivity after his mission and contracted AIDS, but since has returned to serve in his branch presidency, ward bishopric IIRC, and as branch mission leader. He is actively involved daily with the missionaries and members of his branch and is an inspiration to all who know him. I have his permission to share this from a personal letter from 2012:

About his Facebook page:

More recently, he said this about you:

I have a copy of the1992  guidebook he quoted. 

If you would ever like to talk with Bob, I can get you in touch with him.

It sounds like your friend Bob has found a path that he is at peace on.  I certainly wish him well.  And thanks for the offer to put me in touch with him.  I am not sure what I would ask him.  I am pretty familiar with both church policy on this issue and the Evergreen organization.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think the reason some people fly into a rage about the term "same-sex" attraction is that they resent attitudes held by people like Bob. 

There are reasons why people don't like the term SSA.  This is not one of them.  I and others have explained the reasons to you.  You just prefer to disrespect their reasons and wishes to not use that term.  But that is hardly the most offensive thing you do to the gay community.  So do what you want.  The only people that care are those that wish to treat the gay community with respect and decency.

Edited August 21, 2017 by california boy

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, california boy said:

It sounds like your friend Bob has found a path that he is at peace on.  I certainly wish him well.  And thanks for the offer to put me in touch with him.  I am not sure what I would ask him.  I am pretty familiar with both church policy on this issue and the Evergreen organization.

He is definitely at peace. I do not know a more faithful humble disciple of Christ. He's an inspiration to all who know him. His journey seems somewhat similar to yours. If you ever have the desire to talk with him, he's available. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think the reason some people fly into a rage about the term "same-sex" attraction is that they resent attitudes held by people like Bob. 

I don't know. I hope not. He has no agenda. He is simply determined to serve others and share the gospel. 

[Avatar4321]

1) Same gender couples have never been considered a marriage in the history of the world. It seems highly unlikely that something Paul taught was an abomination would be what he meant by denying marriage

2) no was forbidden from marrying. All people have always been able to marry members of the opposite sex. Because that is what marriage is.

[california boy]

8 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

1) Same gender couples have never been considered a marriage in the history of the world. It seems highly unlikely that something Paul taught was an abomination would be what he meant by denying marriage

2) no was forbidden from marrying. All people have always been able to marry members of the opposite sex. Because that is what marriage is.

Well you obviously didn't read the OP.  I never claimed that Paul taught anything about gay marriage.  And actually I also stated that the statement forbidding of marriage was not the teachings of Paul, but rather a prophecy from God concerning the latter days.  Paul probably had no idea why he was given that prophecy.

Gay couples are forbidden to marry in the Mormon church.