bluebell Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 A friend and I were discussing Jesus the Christ today and I mentioned that I had read that some of the scholarship was outdated and not accepted anymore. I couldn't remember any specifics though and googling it wasn't too helpful. The only two that I found were issues with the date of Christ's birthday and the interpretation of some verses in the OT that scholars don't interpret the same way anymore. Is anyone familiar with this topic? Which parts are considered most problematic now?
Popular Post Duncan Posted June 29, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) Ch ch check this out Malcolm R. Thorp "James E. Talmage and the Tradition of Victorian Lives of Jesus," Sunstone 12 (January, 1988), pp. 8-13 https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/063-08-13.pdf Edited June 29, 2017 by Duncan 7
Popular Post Duncan Posted June 29, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2017 and this as well https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V41N04_108.pdf 5
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted June 29, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2017 Yes, it is very outdated. It was based on several "Victorian Lives of Jesus" and written, of course, long before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi texts, which provide a much more contemporary contextualization for early Christianity. I've read it three or four times, most recently six or seven years ago. There is a good Sunstone article on the dependence on the Victorian Lives of Jesus. https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/063-08-13.pdf I recall some references to Book of Mormon geography that are also way out of date, a bit cringe worthy from my perspective. It's fine to read as a primer, to get started with an important text for LDS thought, an important text in the history of LDS thought, but a lot can and did happen in scholarship in a hundred years. McConkie intended his Messiah books to be a successor, but they suffer from a tendency to use 20 words when one would do. I have some memory of an LDS anthology of several contemporary scholars commenting on the book, but at the moment, I don't recall whether it has been published or not. At this point, I'd be more inclined to recommend this one: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/KingOfTheJews.htm Best, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 10
Duncan Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 4 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said: Yes, it is very outdated. It was based on several "Victorian Lives of Jesus" and written, of course, long before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi texts, which provide a much more contemporary contextualization for early Christianity. I've read it three or four times, most recently six or seven years ago. There is a good Sunstone article on the dependence on the Victorian Lives of Jesus. https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/063-08-13.pdf I recall some references to Book of Mormon geography that are also way out of date, a bit cringe worthy from my perspective. It's fine to read as a primer, to get started with an important text for LDS thought, an important text in the history of LDS thought, but a lot can and did happen in scholarship in a hundred years. McConkie intended his Messiah books to be a successor, but they suffer from a tendency to use 20 words when one would do. I have some memory of an LDS anthology of several contemporary scholars commenting on the book, but at the moment, I don't recall whether it has been published or not. At this point, I'd be more inclined to recommend this one: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/KingOfTheJews.htm Best, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA I think you are referring to this book by Holzapfel and Wayment https://deseretbook.com/p/jesus-christ-study-guide-richard-neitzel-holzapfel-92888?variant_id=2774-paperback 4
clarkgoble Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 I'd second Duncan's and Kevin's points. I think McConkie's are valuable from a theological perspective. He has some sections that are quite important I think. But I also agree that despite their influence in the 80's, they weren't necessarily written ideally for the target audience. I also think McConkie tended to neglect the scholarship on culture and history too much. Although to be honest he was typically up front about his doctrinal aims. You see that especially in his Doctrinal New Testament Commentary. Doctrine is right there in the name. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: A friend and I were discussing Jesus the Christ today and I mentioned that I had read that some of the scholarship was outdated and not accepted anymore. I couldn't remember any specifics though and googling it wasn't too helpful. The only two that I found were issues with the date of Christ's birthday and the interpretation of some verses in the OT that scholars don't interpret the same way anymore. Is anyone familiar with this topic? Which parts are considered most problematic now? I read it as a sunday school text when I was very young and naive, and still have warm memories of Talmage as a great and uplifting writer. What he said did not conflict at all with my impressions gained earlier when reading the Gospels intensely as a 15-year-old boy. Only later, after four years living and studying in the Holy Land in my early twenties, did the bigger picture begin to come into view, but I have never found anything in modern critical scholarship which would call the mission of Jesus Christ into question. The article in Sunstone by BYU professor Thorp is a good place to begin in your evaluation, but shouldn't stop there. 4
rpn Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 There is a 2015 update to Jesus the Christ, though I haven't read it yet to see whether it is addresses the information we now have (that might also be incomplete or inaccurate) https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-Revised-Updated-Notes/dp/1462116450 2
bluebell Posted June 29, 2017 Author Posted June 29, 2017 Thanks everyone, this has been very helpful. 26 minutes ago, rpn said: There is a 2015 update to Jesus the Christ, though I haven't read it yet to see whether it is addresses the information we now have (that might also be incomplete or inaccurate) https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-Revised-Updated-Notes/dp/1462116450 Interesting! I'll have to check that out.
pogi Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 Is it still included as part of the missionary reference library? If so, do you think it should be replaced with something else? What would you recommend, Talmage vs. McConkie vs. Margaret Barker? Any others that should be included in the running?
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted June 29, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, bluebell said: A friend and I were discussing Jesus the Christ today and I mentioned that I had read that some of the scholarship was outdated and not accepted anymore. I couldn't remember any specifics though and googling it wasn't too helpful. The only two that I found were issues with the date of Christ's birthday and the interpretation of some verses in the OT that scholars don't interpret the same way anymore. Is anyone familiar with this topic? Which parts are considered most problematic now? Parts of it are outdated, but in general, it remains a valuable resource, even though it is more than 100 years old now. I did a story on it nearly two years ago now in connection with the 100-yaer anniversary of the book's publication. For the story, I interviewed Professors Richard Neitzel Holzapfel and Thomas Wayment at BYU, who have published a study guide on the book, which I recommend if you want to know about updates to the book. In fact, anyone reading the book today should do it in companionship with Holzapfel's and Wayment's study guide so as to mitigate any outdated scholarship. I didn't mention this in the story, but one example Richard noted in our interview is that we know a whole lot more today about the ancient city of Capernaum. As I recall, Talmage wrote that almost nothing is known about it today. In the intervening 100 years, scholars have discovered quite a bit about it. Here's a selection from my Church News story of Sept. 8, 2015: Quote Does it have the relevance today it once did? “In my generation and earlier in the Church, if you really spent time studying the life of Christ, this is probably where you started,” Brother Holzapfel said. “I think the current generation has shifted a little bit from previous generations in which Jesus the Christ was the first book, the touchstone. It’s probably because we have so many other great books that are focused on Jesus’ life and ministry.” He compares it to the Bible Dictionary in the current edition of the LDS scriptures that purports to be “subject to re-evaluation as new revelation or research comes to light.” In their study guide, the authors have a heading in each chapter, “Since 1915,” giving updates to the respective chapters in Jesus the Christ. “Think about it: The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947; that changes our whole view of 1st century Judaism,” Brother Holzapfel said. Older New Testament manuscripts have been discovered. President Joseph F. Smith received his vision of the redemption of the dead in 1918 (see Doctrine and Covenants 138). And the Prophet Joseph Smith’s inspired translation of the Bible is accessible to Latter-day Saints today in a way that was not possible when Elder Talmage wrote Jesus the Christ. Still, the book is a classic, Brother Holzapfel said. “It is the testimony of an apostle, and that powerful voice can be read and can uplift, inspire and bring you into the world of Jesus’ ministry. That’s what its purpose is.” Edited to add: Here is Deseret Book online catalog listing of Holzapfel's and Wayment's Jesus the Christ Study Guide. Edited June 29, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 6
Storm Rider Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 Though I had read Jesus the Christ prior to my mission it was on my mission where I read the entire book, every note, footnote, etc. It was the most inspiring book of my mission - even more so than the scriptures. It really had an impact on me and I remain very fond of Talmage. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said: Yes, it is very outdated. It was based on several "Victorian Lives of Jesus" and written, of course, long before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi texts, which provide a much more contemporary contextualization for early Christianity. I've read it three or four times, most recently six or seven years ago. There is a good Sunstone article on the dependence on the Victorian Lives of Jesus. https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/063-08-13.pdf I recall some references to Book of Mormon geography that are also way out of date, a bit cringe worthy from my perspective. It's fine to read as a primer, to get started with an important text for LDS thought, an important text in the history of LDS thought, but a lot can and did happen in scholarship in a hundred years. McConkie intended his Messiah books to be a successor, but they suffer from a tendency to use 20 words when one would do. I have some memory of an LDS anthology of several contemporary scholars commenting on the book, but at the moment, I don't recall whether it has been published or not. At this point, I'd be more inclined to recommend this one: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/KingOfTheJews.htm Best, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA That's great, Kevin. Thanks. Isn't Jesus the Christ still very influential in establishing the Christology the church still maintains today? For example, isn't it JtC that cements the idea of Jesus being the Jehovah of the Old Testament? Edited June 29, 2017 by HappyJackWagon 1
cinepro Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 This reminds me of a joke I made in EQ once. In a lesson on The Book of Mormon, the teacher cited the "most correct of any book on Earth" quote by Joseph Smith and asked what that meant. As the discussion continued and some people parsed what "most correct" might mean, I raised my hand and said "To be fair, Joseph said this in 1841. There were a lot fewer books back then." I think the logical answer to the question "Is this 100+ year-old book outdated?" will almost always be "yes." 3
Scott Lloyd Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 35 minutes ago, cinepro said: This reminds me of a joke I made in EQ once. In a lesson on The Book of Mormon, the teacher cited the "most correct of any book on Earth" quote by Joseph Smith and asked what that meant. As the discussion continued and some people parsed what "most correct" might mean, I raised my hand and said "To be fair, Joseph said this in 1841. There were a lot fewer books back then." I think the logical answer to the question "Is this 100+ year-old book outdated?" will almost always be "yes." Nearly any book will be outdated almost from the moment it is published. I think the operative question is this: Is it fatally outdated? By that, I mean is it so far antiquated that it no longer has sufficient value to make it worthwhile to read and study? I believe Jesus the Christ, supplemented by later works, still has much to recommend it. In short, it wears well. 2
cinepro Posted June 29, 2017 Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Nearly any book will be outdated almost from the moment it is published. I think the operative question is this: Is it fatally outdated? By that, I mean is it so far antiquated that it no longer has sufficient value to make it worthwhile to read and study? I believe Jesus the Christ, supplemented by later works, still has much to recommend it. In short, it wears well. The problem is that you don't want any LDS to read such an old book and then have it regularly contradicted by all the cutting-edge New Testament scholarship that they're hearing in Church. Edited June 29, 2017 by cinepro 2
Scott Lloyd Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 18 minutes ago, cinepro said: The problem is that you don't want any LDS to read such an old book and then have it regularly contradicted by all the cutting-edge New Testament scholarship that they're hearing in Church. I don't understand. 1
Duncan Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don't understand. Jesus was born on April 6th, or was he?
Kenngo1969 Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I read it as a sunday school text when I was very young and naive, and still have warm memories of Talmage as a great and uplifting writer. What he said did not conflict at all with my impressions gained earlier when reading the Gospels intensely as a 15-year-old boy. Only later, after four years living and studying in the Holy Land in my early twenties, did the bigger picture begin to come into view, but I have never found anything in modern critical scholarship which would call the mission of Jesus Christ into question. The article in Sunstone by BYU professor Thorp is a good place to begin in your evaluation, but shouldn't stop there. You were quite the young man, weren't you, Brother Smith? (Seriously, that's quite impressive.)
readstoomuch Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 Most life changing book of my life, other than the Book of Mormon itself. It is very dependent on 19th century protestant biblical commentaries, but a great place to see the gospel in perspective and gain testimony of the gospel. If it gets people asking questions about biblical scholarship, at least they are asking questions about the Bible. 4
bluebell Posted June 30, 2017 Author Posted June 30, 2017 3 hours ago, pogi said: Is it still included as part of the missionary reference library? If so, do you think it should be replaced with something else? What would you recommend, Talmage vs. McConkie vs. Margaret Barker? Any others that should be included in the running? Personally, I love the book wouldn't want it to be replaced. As far as i know it's still a part of the reference library, but I bet they use the revised edition. 4
RevTestament Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 6 hours ago, bluebell said: A friend and I were discussing Jesus the Christ today and I mentioned that I had read that some of the scholarship was outdated and not accepted anymore. I couldn't remember any specifics though and googling it wasn't too helpful. The only two that I found were issues with the date of Christ's birthday and the interpretation of some verses in the OT that scholars don't interpret the same way anymore. Is anyone familiar with this topic? Which parts are considered most problematic now? Never read it, so I can't say. I have read Skousen's 2 volume set, The Days of the Living Christ, and loved it. It brought Christ so personally before me. I was just super-impressed with it, and highly recommend it. It was like traveling with our Savior through His ministry. 2
bluebell Posted June 30, 2017 Author Posted June 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Though I had read Jesus the Christ prior to my mission it was on my mission where I read the entire book, every note, footnote, etc. It was the most inspiring book of my mission - even more so than the scriptures. It really had an impact on me and I remain very fond of Talmage. Me too.
RevTestament Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: Jesus was born on April 6th, or was he? I believe that is doubtful. I now have strong suspicions He was born in the fall. However, He did get crucified at that time - of the Passover. I note that the gospels are silent about any passover happenings at the time of His birth. Everyone was in commotion because they had to travel to their appointed places to be taxed - nothing about the Passover. The normal time to be taxed would be after the harvest. 2
Five Solas Posted June 30, 2017 Posted June 30, 2017 6 hours ago, Duncan said: Ch ch check this out Malcolm R. Thorp "James E. Talmage and the Tradition of Victorian Lives of Jesus," Sunstone 12 (January, 1988), pp. 8-13 https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/063-08-13.pdf Ouch! Thorp says LDS have a systematic theology. In his very first sentence in the article. If mfbukowski sees this, he ain't gonna be pleased... ;0) --Erik ___________________________________ You don't know me from the wind You never will, you never did I'm the little Jew Who wrote the Bible --Leonard Cohen "The Future" 1
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