Observing the Sabbath

[Duncan]

Just now, Darren10 said:

'"Christmas with Colonel Sanders"'

WTH is that?

it's a real thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

In the meantime then, the best thing for you might be to actually go to the store on Sunday then.  It's the most responsible thing for us to do until that gap gets more equalized.  

My going to the grocery store on Sunday might fuel something but it not giving Edna the checkout girl a nickel an hour raise.

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

SS we had a lesson the Sabbath, as perhaps some of you did too.

A man shared a story wherein he at one time had to take a really tough test for a work certification and he worried he wouldn't pass.  So he suggested he'd study a little bit on the Sabbath to which his wife replied "you sure you should do such worldly things on the Sabbath"?  And he did not study on any Sunday leading up to it and he passed.  Says he, "I can tell you with assuredly that I know I only passed because I observed the Sabbath".  Cute story, I'd say, but I'm skeptical. 

I bring this up because I chimed in saying (sometime before this above comment was made and my comment was not related, nor was it meant to be):

"During Jesus's life we have nothing from Him about the Sabbath except a bunch of effort on his part to condemn those who wished to follow certain rules about what to do on the Sabbath.  And Paul has nothing except at one point in Col. 2 he says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meal, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days" which is similar.  It feels like sometimes we're too pharisaical on this point."  I had nothing more to add, except when a few people seemed to get all concerned with my comment, I added, "I'm just pointing out what is the NT and we can do with it what we want.  I dont' really have much more to say than that about our understanding and observance of the Sabbath.  Peace."

People seemed to get a bit agitated by my comment.  Uncomfortable with the notion that our strictness of Sabbath observance is a bit misguided.  What is your take?

Good points.  I wish I had thought of making that connection.  There is the scripture in Mark about God making Sabbath for man, but not the other way around.  If you're right about it not being emphasized by Jesus, except as a means to question those Pharisees who were skeptical of Jesus and his actions on the Sabbath, it is an interesting point.  

I find it interesting that Mormonism has emphasized Sabbath observance in a stricter way than many other Christian denominations.  Why do we think this is the case?  For example, not playing sports on Sunday.  In the 21st century most other Christian faiths don't have a problem with this, yet Mormonism seems to want to die on this hill.  Why is this?  There isn't a scriptural revelation in our D&C or BoM that I'm aware of that spends significant time emphasizing the Sabbath or that condemns other faiths for their lack of adherence to the Sabbath.  Why is this evolution of doctrine making the idea of a strict Sabbath observance something unique to Mormonism?

 

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Good points.  I wish I had thought of making that connection.  There is the scripture in Mark about God making Sabbath for man, but not the other way around.  If you're right about it not being emphasized by Jesus, except as a means to question those Pharisees who were skeptical of Jesus and his actions on the Sabbath, it is an interesting point.  

I find it interesting that Mormonism has emphasized Sabbath observance in a stricter way than many other Christian denominations.  Why do we think this is the case?  For example, not playing sports on Sunday.  In the 21st century most other Christian faiths don't have a problem with this, yet Mormonism seems to want to die on this hill.  Why is this?  There isn't a scriptural revelation in our D&C or BoM that I'm aware of that spends significant time emphasizing the Sabbath or that condemns other faiths for their lack of adherence to the Sabbath.  Why is this evolution of doctrine making the idea of a strict Sabbath observance something unique to Mormonism?

 

Your questions could spark, what I'd think is a pretty interesting book or scholarly piece if it hasn't been written already.  My guess is The LDS Church took the lead of the wider Christian culture that it was raised in and ran with the Sabbath observance model on such grounds.  As differing levels of lax-ness made room within Christianity the LDS Church dug in it's heals, as did other Christian sects, because she, it was thought, should be doing things better than others anyway.  Nowadays we're just running with the stubbornness of the past, to try and prove, as the Pharisees did, that we are better than the other sects. 

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Your questions could spark, what I'd think is a pretty interesting book or scholarly piece if it hasn't been written already.  My guess is The LDS Church took the lead of the wider Christian culture that it was raised in and ran with the Sabbath observance model on such grounds.  As differing levels of lax-ness made room within Christianity the LDS Church dug in it's heals, as did other Christian sects, because she, it was thought, should be doing things better than others anyway.  Nowadays we're just running with the stubbornness of the past, to try and prove, as the Pharisees did, that we are better than the other sects. 

Yeah, its an interesting Mormon culture phenomena.  If anyone knows of essays or books on this subject within the Mormon Studies world, can you let us know, I'd like to read more about the history of our Sabbath day observance and the trend toward a stricter interpretation, especially in light of no canonized scripture like a WoW or something along those lines.  Why this doctrine and why this interpretation and emphasis, whats the history?  

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Your questions could spark, what I'd think is a pretty interesting book or scholarly piece if it hasn't been written already.  My guess is The LDS Church took the lead of the wider Christian culture that it was raised in and ran with the Sabbath observance model on such grounds.  As differing levels of lax-ness made room within Christianity the LDS Church dug in it's heals, as did other Christian sects, because she, it was thought, should be doing things better than others anyway.  Nowadays we're just running with the stubbornness of the past, to try and prove, as the Pharisees did, that we are better than the other sects. 

Ooooooorrrrrrrr . . . . the Lord's direction as given in D&C 59 and through modern prophets (most recently, the worldwide focus on recommitting to Sabbath Day observance) is actually the Lord's will, and not just outdated traditional conservatism. 

[mnn727]

I believe going out to eat or shop breaks the Sabbath by requiring a maid-servant or man-servant to do work for you. (maid-servant or man-servant being someone to cook and wait on you)

Quote

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by mnn727

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

That's basically what my wife concluded as she brought it up later.  Thus, his "certaintly" claim felt hollow.  He didn't give the lesson.  It was his comment sometime during the lesson, though. 

I hear you on your perspective and I disagree to an extent.  I say dedicate my time to God on all days.  Find ways to help people any day...So I'm not sure what sitting on my caboose listening to the Mo-tab has to do with anything. 

No doubt everyday should be dedicated to God. What makes the Sabbath different is that it is a day in articular which we place aside our normal cares like work and study and dedicate that extra time to God. 

[Darren10]

59 minutes ago, Duncan said:

it's a real thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Darren10 said:

'"Christmas with Colonel Sanders"'

WTH is that?

Let's just say that Duncan loooves him some KFC.  I'm not sure if he thinks it's the USA's best export to The Great White North, but ...

[Duncan]

Just now, Kenngo1969 said:

Let's just say that Duncan loooves him some KFC.  I'm not sure if he thinks it's the USA's best export to The Great White North, but ...

I live near a hospital so I am okay!

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Here's a sabbath day question, what if you are trying to keep the Sabbath but the person or persons you are living with and are members aren't? Like, they come home and watch TV or a Movie or blast their "Christmas with Colonel Sanders" album?

 

1 hour ago, Darren10 said:

'"Christmas with Colonel Sanders"'

WTH is that?

Let's just say that Duncan looves him some KFC.  I'm not sure if he thinks it's the USA's very best export to The Great White North or not, but ...  

[Kenngo1969]

Just now, Duncan said:

I live near a hospital so I am okay!

 

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Let's just say that Duncan loooves him some KFC.  I'm not sure if he thinks it's the USA's best export to The Great White North, but ...

King Follet's Chicken?

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What is your take?

To me, the Sabbath is the Lord's day. It's a bit like tithing; He gives me seven days, and I give one back to Him. So I get to spend the entire day (not just part of it) doing His stuff -- which, to be honest, is what I'd prefer doing the other six days, but there's this commandment about it taking sweat to eat bread...and there's washing to be done...and...

What does that look like for me? My past Sabbath:

• Woke up at 6:30, prayed, showered and shaved, dressed, and finished a bit of lesson prep. (Despite my best efforts, no lesson ever completely comes together for me till Sunday morning.)
• Picked up a uni student who doesn't have and car and headed to church. (Fantastic testimony meeting followed by teaching Gospel Principles and attending high priests group.)
• Spent nearly an hour after church talking to various people.
• Took the full-time Elders with me and headed to the home of one of our recent converts. One of his neighbours is sick, and he offered her a priesthood blessing. She really didn't understand what that meant, but it was a moving experience for all of us.
• On our way, we'd learnt that an elderly ward member was in hospital, so we headed there next. We had a good chat with him and his wife, and he also asked us for a blessing.
• I dropped the Elders off and headed home. There I added my comments to the online agenda for ward council (which I couldn't attend) and typed up the program for a baptism.
• I then headed to my office to print out the program before heading to the chapel to set up.
• I made sure the font was full and then cleaned the font room and chapel in preparation for the baptism. (The ward we share the building with is terrible at caring for the building, so this involved getting the vacuum out.)
• Conducted the baptismal service. Very nice!
• Took the Elders with me and headed to the home of a shut-in couple, the husband of which is a recent convert. We administered the sacrament to them and shared a message.
• My final plan was to take the Elders to my non-member friends' home for a message, something we do most Sundays, but it was going on 8:30, so we decided not to. (I'd earlier texted them to let them know we might not make it.)
• Headed home, prayed, cooked up a big bowl of spicy noodles, topped it with a pile of homemade kimchi, and broke fast.
• Read a chapter in the Book of Mormon and went to bed.

I loved the entire day, and it all went by way, way too fast.

I could be wrong, but I think this is what Isaiah might have meant when he wrote the following:

'If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it'.

9 hours ago, stemelbow said:

In that way, Sunday is the same as any other day, and church sometimes, as at result, becomes a pain the butt much like some activities I gotsta do other days. 

It sounds like you're getting exactly what you want, no?

[Kenngo1969]

Hamba:

Sounds like a delightful Sabbath.  I know I wasn't blessed by or otherwise involved in all of your service, but thank you for your service, nonetheless.  

[Kenngo1969]

Except on rare occasions, I cannot attend my own ward.  I work for a 24/7 operation, and, having worked in similar environments in the past (not 24/7, except for a couple, but telephone customer service environments), I knew it would be difficult for me to recharge fully and to maintain proper perspective without having two consecutive days off. The only schedule which offered me that was working Th-M with Tue. & Wed. off.  I have some seniority and I have a stellar attendance record, so I've asked for Sun. & Mon. off (I would have to work a weekend day, regardless) so we'll see how it goes.

One thing I can tell you, after a nearly-two-year enforced "sabbatical" from my own ward, is that in my opinion, the "take-a-sabbatical-from-Church" crowd is nuts!  

[Avatar4321]

Best way to understand the Sabbath is to keep it. Not an easy thing. I'd like to do more to keep it. I think when we are consistent in honoringbthe Lord's day we do my to bring the power of God down into our lives.

In my study of american history I've noticed the George Washington encouraged his troops to honor the Sabbath. Im confident it was that effort that invited Divine Providence to act among the Continental Army in winning the war

[sheilauk]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Good points.  I wish I had thought of making that connection.  There is the scripture in Mark about God making Sabbath for man, but not the other way around.  If you're right about it not being emphasized by Jesus, except as a means to question those Pharisees who were skeptical of Jesus and his actions on the Sabbath, it is an interesting point.  

I find it interesting that Mormonism has emphasized Sabbath observance in a stricter way than many other Christian denominations.  Why do we think this is the case?  For example, not playing sports on Sunday.  In the 21st century most other Christian faiths don't have a problem with this, yet Mormonism seems to want to die on this hill.  Why is this?  There isn't a scriptural revelation in our D&C or BoM that I'm aware of that spends significant time emphasizing the Sabbath or that condemns other faiths for their lack of adherence to the Sabbath.  Why is this evolution of doctrine making the idea of a strict Sabbath observance something unique to Mormonism?

 

Have you seen chariots of fire?  Mormons  may more consistently avoid sports for example on a Sunday but others do share the same view, even Olympic athletes have refused to take part in events on a Sunday. 

[Alan]

I'm joining this discussion late, so this point might have been made already.

We don't observe the Sabbath. The Sabbath is from sunset on Friday until sunset on Saturday. The scriptures clearly state this is a law unto Israel forever.

What we observe is he Lord's Day. It is referred to as such in the D&C.

None of the Jewish Sabbath laws apply to the Lord's Day. There are Lord's Day observances, but these have no real connection with the Hebrew Sabbath.

[RevTestament]

On 5/8/2017 at 7:57 AM, stemelbow said:

SS we had a lesson the Sabbath, as perhaps some of you did too.

A man shared a story wherein he at one time had to take a really tough test for a work certification and he worried he wouldn't pass.  So he suggested he'd study a little bit on the Sabbath to which his wife replied "you sure you should do such worldly things on the Sabbath"?  And he did not study on any Sunday leading up to it and he passed.  Says he, "I can tell you with assuredly that I know I only passed because I observed the Sabbath".  Cute story, I'd say, but I'm skeptical. 

I bring this up because I chimed in saying (sometime before this above comment was made and my comment was not related, nor was it meant to be):

"During Jesus's life we have nothing from Him about the Sabbath except a bunch of effort on his part to condemn those who wished to follow certain rules about what to do on the Sabbath.  And Paul has nothing except at one point in Col. 2 he says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meal, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days" which is similar.  It feels like sometimes we're too pharisaical on this point."  I had nothing more to add, except when a few people seemed to get all concerned with my comment, I added, "I'm just pointing out what is the NT and we can do with it what we want.  I dont' really have much more to say than that about our understanding and observance of the Sabbath.  Peace."

People seemed to get a bit agitated by my comment.  Uncomfortable with the notion that our strictness of Sabbath observance is a bit misguided.  What is your take?

Jesus generally condemned all the rules of the Pharisees and Rabbis. He called them "traditions" that they burdened the people with causing "burdens heavy to be born." Jesus did emphasize following the intent of the law, and so He set about to correct the myriad rules the Jews had adopted. They literally had rules for every aspect of life - even what shoe to put on first, etc. These are the types of things Jesus condemned. Jesus tried to teach that the Sabbath was made for man - not as a restriction - but as a day to serve the Lord by serving one another. Thus, the law instructed the people to lay down their daily labors to support themselves. The Sabbath was a day not to think about self but to serve life. Thus, the Lord would not condemn those who would save their donkey on the Sabbath. Likewise the Lord would not condemn those who used the Sabbath to serve others. This is service can be considered a sacrifice of one's time for the sake of others - a sacrament - from the same root word. 

So the only real "strictness" of the Sabbath is that we don't make it about ourselves. We dedicate it to serving the Lord by serving others. 

This is why the Lord had more than one Sabbath in the Mosaic Law. In fact the first day of the week was to be a Sabbath at certain times, as were the first day of certain months. 

16 And in the first day there shall be an holy ^aconvocation, and in the ^bseventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

On another thread Bernard Gui pointed out something important - we covenant to keep all the Lord's commandments in His Church, and keeping the Lord's Day as a Sabbath day to Him and to offer up our sacraments on God's holy day is a commandment:

D&C 59
9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day;
10 For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High;
11 Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times;
12 But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord.
13 And on this day thou shalt do none other thing, only let thy food be prepared with singleness of heart that thy fasting may be perfect, or, in other words, that thy joy may be full.
21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.
22 Behold, this is according to the law and the prophets; wherefore, trouble me no more concerning this matter.
23 But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousnessshall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.
24 I, the Lord, have spoken it, and the Spirit beareth record. Amen.

I've somewhat recently come to the conclusion that the Sabbath day was given as a covenant to Adam, which is a reason for the 7 "day" thing. Even though we no longer keep Saturday as the Sabbath, this section makes it clear that we are to keep "the Lord's Day" or Sunday as our Sabbath.

[filovirus]

Sabbath Day observance is between a person and the Lord. I don't feel it is in our best interest to judge how others interpret it's observance. The "cute" story you mentioned was faith promoting for that brother. It led him to a closer understanding of Christ and a better relationship with Him.

As far as I know, the Church has relatively few rules on Sabbath worship, and generally let's it's members decide how to interpret and observe those rules. Just because your views and his view differ doesn't mean either of you are wrong.

And that was the real reason Jesus condemned the Pharisees; they were quick to judge other peoples relationship with the Lord and how they followed the Law. There was nothing wrong with following the letter of the Law, as long as their heart was pointed to God, and not strictly Law observance.

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, sheilauk said:

Have you seen chariots of fire?  Mormons  may more consistently avoid sports for example on a Sunday but others do share the same view, even Olympic athletes have refused to take part in events on a Sunday. 

Yes, but this has changed in the last couple generations for most of the rest of Christianity has gone one direction and Mormonism has gone the other.  I was reading about Wilford Woodruff and his love of fly fishing on Sundays just recently.  I can't imagine a contemporary leader condoning such behavior.  Mormonism has gotten stricter about Sabbath rules where the culture and most of the rest of Christianity has moved the opposite direction.  Why? 

[halconero]

Semi-liberal approach to the Sabbath after reading Wilford Woodruff's Sabbath activities, which included hiking and fly fishing.

Here's my approach:

1) Renewal of my covenants via participation in the sacrament.

2) Talking about the welfare of my soul and the souls of my covenant brothers and sisters via participation in classes and councils.

3) Seeking to serve others via Home Teaching, Family History, or other activities.

4) Relaxing a bit.

5) Avoiding engaging in economic activities (spending money or making others work whether they're member or non-member) with the notion that they can participate in all the above activities.

Within that context I've done various activities which have fostered commune between my whole soul (physical, mental, spiritual, emotional self) and God via gratefulness, serving others, enjoying creation, etc. I've gone hiking, had a picnic, and even gone to the gym to do some deep stretching. The gym is a month to month 24-hour pass and they don't have any staff onsite on Sunday's so I don't feel as though I'm obligating anyone to work.

On a deeper level, my still practicing Jewish uncle said that according to his particular school of Judaism the idea of the Sabbath is to give the entirety of Creation a rest. He does this in an environmentalist context by trying to eliminate or minimize his carbon footprint on the Sabbath, having his food prepared beforehand, and avoiding any artificial lighting. He understands it's not really practical in this day and age, but he somewhat pines for the old Mosaic law of Sabbath years and Jubilees as well.

[sheilauk]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, but this has changed in the last couple generations for most of the rest of Christianity has gone one direction and Mormonism has gone the other.  I was reading about Wilford Woodruff and his love of fly fishing on Sundays just recently.  I can't imagine a contemporary leader condoning such behavior.  Mormonism has gotten stricter about Sabbath rules where the culture and most of the rest of Christianity has moved the opposite direction.  Why? 

granted I haven't been in the church long but I have seen no strictness over the sabbath,  except an exhortation from the brethren to observe it where possible, and certainly no different from other churches I've been to.  nor do I see my ward members being very strict or overtly judgemental.   I don't think I've heard anything that leads me to believe fly fishing would be wrong. I generally try to avoid activity that requires paid work, but I often go for walks and I even do chores sometimes because of my schedule.  I think it's left up to each person how they keep the sabbath or the Lords Day holy.  cultures vary, even in the church.  The main thing is to keep it holy.  so I can't say why because I don't see it like you do.