Observing the Sabbath

[bluebell]

46 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Ahh...hooey...people have to work anyways, whether you get off your lazy butt or not. 

Some do, but many don't.  

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Love for God should be our priority numero uno.   The sabbath is a holy day, different than the other six, per God's commandment.  But I agree that there are many things we can do on sunday that we should be doing every other day of the week as well.

Of course Sunday wasn't the original Sabbath. Does the day of the week matter or could I have my Sabbath on Tuesday one week and Thursday the next if that was a day I had off? If the day of the week does matter we should probably return to worshipping on Saturdays  

[rongo]

46 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not opposed to doing yard work though, or studying for tests, or watching TV shows, or getting some good exercise.  It just so happens yesterday I didn't fit that in.  Is gathering up the kids and running off to a comfortable restaurant out of the question? 

For me, it is. And for most Mormons, too.

I'm seeing a pattern, and I think I understand why you and your wife feel so out of place at and in the Church. You seem to chafe at all the teachings, policies, etc. If I felt that way, I don't think I would enjoy much about the Church, either.

Woo...God has manipulated time on your behalf?  what does that mean?

Yes. My family has a really strong testimony of this, and we really believe that with God, all things are possible. We don't see the items in the scriptures like moving mountains, saying to sea to be earth, changing water to wine, dividing loaves and fishes, etc. as metaphorical or allegorical. 

One example would be when you literally don't have enough time to get something important done (it's not even close), and you pray for help and are miraculously able to get it done in a ridiculously short amount of time. This has happened with my wife repeatedly over the last year. She is doing Pathway (which entails a lot of busy work, depending on your teacher. She has not won the teacher lottery) and finishing up her associates at the community college, which means that she has had her Pathway work and fulltime (12-15 credit hours) course load at college. She has had an impossible amount of work and deadlines, and has miraculously been able to get everything done --- specifically doing no work on Sundays (we don't go online on Sundays, actually). 

The biggest miracle my wife and I have experienced regarding time was when my oldest was two, and my daughter was a newborn. We needed to be at the Mesa temple at noon for my sister's sealing, and I went to pick up the babysitter. I got lost and couldn't find the house (we were new to Arizona), and arrived back at the apartment at 11:55. My wife panicked, and went and got her (she was in the YW presidency, and the girl's mother was a fellow counselor). We took off and made our way from where we lived (Gilbert and Guadalupe) to the Mesa temple. We had normal traffic and the normal ratio of green-to-red lights (i.e., we didn't hit every light --- not even close), and we weren't speeding. We found a parking spot, and made it into the sealing room before 12:00 noon. We were actually (barely) on-time.This was very stressful to us, given our aversion to being late to anything, and the unique dynamics with my sister (I know that people are late to sealings and they wait, but it would not have been good for her or for us if we had been late). We were dumbfounded. It is not remotely possible to have made it on time even if we had been speeding and had hit every green light. 

My wife and I have wondered about the actual mechanics of what happened. Did time pass differently for us than it did for those around us? Was it an actual slowing down of time, or just a perception issue? But, the undeniable fact is that God somehow manipulated time or how time was perceived for us and those around us. I have heard members scoff at God turning back the sundial shadow in Isaiah, or the sun standing still in Joshua, but for us --- we have no problem with that whatsoever. 

And a God who can do that can certainly enable us to finish something without doing it on Sunday, if we have faith in the principle of keeping the Sabbath Day holy and are expecting that blessing. 

[stemelbow]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Love for God should be our priority numero uno.   The sabbath is a holy day, different than the other six, per God's commandment.  But I agree that there are many things we can do on sunday that we should be doing every other day of the week as well.

Ok.  I'm just pointin gout I see it differently than you.  The goal is of love and goodness matters, everything else is secondary in my view.  It doesn't matter to me if my Sunday is the same as my Saturday as long as I seek after my goal of loving God and others. 

I get your take on the commandment.  I question it moreso than you, is all. 

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

For me, it is. And for most Mormons, too.

"most" Mormons?  You got a poll on hand?  it seems to me most Mormons don't go to Church enough to be considered active, so maybe you're claiming more than you know? 

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm seeing a pattern, and I think I understand why you and your wife feel so out of place at and in the Church. You seem to chafe at all the teachings, policies, etc. If I felt that way, I don't think I would enjoy much about the Church, either.

I don't chaffe nothing.  I'm not sure you have a good view in order to really make these judgments.  But I can take your idea for what it is anyway, so thanks. 

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

 

Yes. My family has a really strong testimony of this, and we really believe that with God, all things are possible. We don't see the items in the scriptures like moving mountains, saying to sea to be earth, changing water to wine, dividing loaves and fishes, etc. as metaphorical or allegorical. 

One example would be when you literally don't have enough time to get something important done (it's not even close), and you pray for help and are miraculously able to get it done in a ridiculously short amount of time. This has happened with my wife repeatedly over the last year. She is doing Pathway (which entails a lot of busy work, depending on your teacher. She has not won the teacher lottery) and finishing up her associates at the community college, which means that she has had her Pathway work and fulltime (12-15 credit hours) course load at college. She has had an impossible amount of work and deadlines, and has miraculously been able to get everything done --- specifically doing no work on Sundays (we don't go online on Sundays, actually). 

The biggest miracle my wife and I have experienced regarding time was when my oldest was two, and my daughter was a newborn. We needed to be at the Mesa temple at noon for my sister's sealing, and I went to pick up the babysitter. I got lost and couldn't find the house (we were new to Arizona), and arrived back at the apartment at 11:55. My wife panicked, and went and got her (she was in the YW presidency, and the girl's mother was a fellow counselor). We took off and made our way from where we lived (Gilbert and Guadalupe) to the Mesa temple. We had normal traffic and the normal ratio of green-to-red lights (i.e., we didn't hit every light --- not even close), and we weren't speeding. We found a parking spot, and made it into the sealing room before 12:00 noon. We were actually (barely) on-time.This was very stressful to us, given our aversion to being late to anything, and the unique dynamics with my sister (I know that people are late to sealings and they wait, but it would not have been good for her or for us if we had been late). We were dumbfounded. It is not remotely possible to have made it on time even if we had been speeding and had hit every green light. 

My wife and I have wondered about the actual mechanics of what happened. Did time pass differently for us than it did for those around us? Was it an actual slowing down of time, or just a perception issue? But, the undeniable fact is that God somehow manipulated time or how time was perceived for us and those around us. I have heard members scoff at God turning back the sundial shadow in Isaiah, or the sun standing still in Joshua, but for us --- we have no problem with that whatsoever. 

And a God who can do that can certainly enable us to finish something without doing it on Sunday, if we have faith in the principle of keeping the Sabbath Day holy and are expecting that blessing. 

Thanks. 

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

"most" Mormons?  You got a poll on hand?  it seems to me most Mormons don't go to Church enough to be considered active, so maybe you're claiming more than you know? 

You're right. Most active Mormons is more accurate. Nice catch!

I think it's obvious that we're talking about normative Mormon teachings and practices, not what the very inactive think or do vis a vis Sabbath Day observance, etc.

Quote

I don't chaffe nothing.  I'm not sure you have a good view in order to really make these judgments.

Baloney. Practically every thread from you is along the lines of your recent ones (Mormon Sabbath Day observance norms bother you, Mormon scripture study expectations bother you, etc.). 

Quote

But I can take your idea for what it is anyway, so thanks.

No problem. As with anything, take it or leave it. Your mileage may vary. Not available in all 50 states. Void where prohibited. See store for details.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by rongo

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

Baloney. Practically every thread from you is along the lines of your recent ones (Mormon Sabbath Day observance norms bother you, Mormon scripture study expectations bother you, etc.).

It's obvious to me you haven't really paid much attention to what I've said but have rather added your perceptions of me to what I've said.  I didn't say observance norms bother me. That doesn't mean I haven't questioned some of the boundaries.  It's probably good for you to go back to the drawing board in devising your conclusion of what's wrong with me.  

 

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

A lot of people are thankful to get work hours, whether it's on Sunday or any other day. If I say I don't want anyone to work means many wouldn't "get" to work even if they wanted to for the support of their families.

I wonder what would happen to the job market and the economy if no one worked on Sunday. Would that be more utopian or dystopian?

Well, my ideal world also involves cutting the wage inequality gap but it is much harder to exemplify that on the Sabbath.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Well, my ideal world also involves cutting the wage inequality gap but it is much harder to exemplify that on the Sabbath.

In the meantime then, the best thing for you might be to actually go to the store on Sunday then.  It's the most responsible thing for us to do until that gap gets more equalized.  

[Kenngo1969]

Former BYU football lineman Eli Herring, a promising, highly-touted NFL prospect,  passed up millions of dollars to avoid playing on Sundays.  Conversely, former BYU QB Steve Young made a pretty nice living after making the opposite decision.  Perhaps it isn't for me (or for anyone else) to question either decision.  Both are accountable to God, not to me or to anyone else.

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Former BYU football lineman Eli Herring, a promising, highly-touted NFL prospect,  passed up millions of dollars to avoid playing on Sundays.  Conversely, former BYU QB Steve Young made a pretty nice living after making the opposite decision.  Perhaps it isn't for me (or for anyone else) to question either decision.  Both are accountable to God, not to me or to anyone else.

You said it, Brother.  of course Eli Herring's decision just seems plain stupid from most people's vantage points, but maybe he actually did not like scrubbing up against other dudes while getting slammed in the back by his running back.  Maybe there's a lot of him we don't understand.  What a novel way to view things, huh? 

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

You said it, Brother.  of course Eli Herring's decision just seems plain stupid from most people's vantage points, but maybe he actually did not like scrubbing up against other dudes while getting slammed in the back by his running back.  Maybe there's a lot of him we don't understand.  What a novel way to view things, huh? 

No, in Eli's case, he was quite clear about where he was coming from. He told NFL teams that he was not going to play in the NFL, and not to waste their first round pick on him. The Raiders drafted him (#4 overall, if I remember correctly --- they couldn't believe anyone would turn down millions in guaranteed money).

Eli and his father had a press conference to announce the decision. After Eli explained that he did not want to play on Sundays (he became a high school football coach later), his father expressed how proud he was of him, and said something like, "My parents called it the Holy Sabbath Day. My generation called it Sunday. Eli's generation calls it the weekend." 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Of course Sunday wasn't the original Sabbath. Does the day of the week matter or could I have my Sabbath on Tuesday one week and Thursday the next if that was a day I had off? If the day of the week does matter we should probably return to worshipping on Saturdays  

Very true.  Christians changed the sabbath day to correspond to 'the Lord's day' or the day Jesus was resurrected (a Sunday).  You should probably honor which ever day you believe God wants you to honor as His Sabbath.  It's a sign between you and Him.  

[stemelbow]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

No, in Eli's case, he was quite clear about where he was coming from. He told NFL teams that he was not going to play in the NFL, and not to waste their first round pick on him. The Raiders drafted him (#4 overall, if I remember correctly --- they couldn't believe anyone would turn down millions in guaranteed money).

Eli and his father had a press conference to announce the decision. After Eli explained that he did not want to play on Sundays (he became a high school football coach later), his father expressed how proud he was of him, and said something like, "My parents called it the Holy Sabbath Day. My generation called it Sunday. Eli's generation calls it the weekend." 

What do you mean, no?  Do you think you really know him because of his explanations?  I just googled and I learned his dad wanted him to go to the NFL but his mom thought he should not work on Sunday. 

But, yes, that's a cute story.  I'm happy he did what he felt was best. 

[Duncan]

Here's a sabbath day question, what if you are trying to keep the Sabbath but the person or persons you are living with and are members aren't? Like, they come home and watch TV or a Movie or blast their "Christmas with Colonel Sanders" album?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Very true.  Christians changed the sabbath day to correspond to 'the Lord's day' or the day Jesus was resurrected (a Sunday).  You should probably honor which ever day you believe God wants you to honor as His Sabbath.  It's a sign between you and Him.  

Good point. The church is actually very flexible on this. In Egypt for example the sabbath is on Friday: https://www.lds.org/maps/meetinghouses/@29.957855,31.211759,12&id=ward.english:119326

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Here's a sabbath day question, what if you are trying to keep the Sabbath but the person or persons you are living with and are members aren't? Like, they come home and watch TV or a Movie or blast their "Christmas with Colonel Sanders" album?

Find a new place to live or accept them and embrace them for who they are and what they do.  I'd say be open about your feelings.   They need to know. 

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Good point. The church is actually very flexible on this. In Egypt for example the sabbath is on Friday: https://www.lds.org/maps/meetinghouses/@29.957855,31.211759,12&id=ward.english:119326

There's nothing magical about Sunday, then.  We can observe any day.  Eli should have realized that when he declined the millions he could have made and in so doing would not have missed out on observing the Sabbath.  The Church should have told him.  I wonder if he asked the Church, like President Hinckley.  I see an article fo the LA times saying, " The leaders of his church told Eli they would support him regardless of his decision. Jennifer said the same thing."

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-09-15/sports/sp-46184_1_eli-herring

The Church could have gotten more moneys from his tithings and offerings, building up the kingdom more, reaching more people, perhaps have given more money to the poor and starving so less people would have died over the past 22 years...

Well he did what he felt was best.  So, not much more to say on that.  I don't mean to be harsh though.  I truly do think it best to support him in is decision.  No dobut it's possible there's more to it than he let on. 

 

[rongo]

24 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What do you mean, no?  Do you think you really know him because of his explanations?  I just googled and I learned his dad wanted him to go to the NFL but his mom thought he should not work on Sunday. 

Well, I think I know him better than your "maybe he actually did not like scrubbing up against other dudes while getting slammed in the back by his running back.  Maybe there's a lot of him we don't understand" alternative. 

Based on what happened at the time, news coverage, press conference, his own statements, etc. 

[Darren10]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

SS we had a lesson the Sabbath, as perhaps some of you did too.

A man shared a story wherein he at one time had to take a really tough test for a work certification and he worried he wouldn't pass.  So he suggested he'd study a little bit on the Sabbath to which his wife replied "you sure you should do such worldly things on the Sabbath"?  And he did not study on any Sunday leading up to it and he passed.  Says he, "I can tell you with assuredly that I know I only passed because I observed the Sabbath".  Cute story, I'd say, but I'm skeptical. 

I bring this up because I chimed in saying (sometime before this above comment was made and my comment was not related, nor was it meant to be):

"During Jesus's life we have nothing from Him about the Sabbath except a bunch of effort on his part to condemn those who wished to follow certain rules about what to do on the Sabbath.  And Paul has nothing except at one point in Col. 2 he says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meal, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days" which is similar.  It feels like sometimes we're too pharisaical on this point."  I had nothing more to add, except when a few people seemed to get all concerned with my comment, I added, "I'm just pointing out what is the NT and we can do with it what we want.  I dont' really have much more to say than that about our understanding and observance of the Sabbath.  Peace."

People seemed to get a bit agitated by my comment.  Uncomfortable with the notion that our strictness of Sabbath observance is a bit misguided.  What is your take?

First, the person presenting the lesson knows most about what happened regarding his studying, or not, on the Sabbath. That' said, I think there's more to view than his simple testimony that he only passed because he did not study on the Sabbath. I think he passed because he disciplined himself very effectively to study so well throughout that week that he did not need to study on the Sabbath.

Second, let me elaborate a bit n the first by sharing what I think were really wise words from a BYU bishop I had on this very topic. He told the ward member (all BYU students) that if we really needed to study on the Sabbath, then study on the Sabbath. However, if you do, then simply ask ourselves ourselves if there was anything we could have done to avoid studying on the Sabbath. The answer would probably be yes. If so then we should consider what we could do to avoid Sabbath day study.

Third, the Sabbath is not about "doing whatever you want", it's about dedicating one day per week entirely to God. That means to act in a way which glorifies Him. If you need family time, use family time. If someone you know needs help, help them. If you need to rest a little more physical rest (nap) *so that* you can work better throughout the week, then get that rest in. I agree we should not judge and Mormons are guilty on judging others regarding the Sabbath. Standardized conduct is quite pharisaic I agree; but ultimately the Sabbath is about our day dedicated to God and it should be what makes Latter-day Saints a "peculiar people" in the world.

[stemelbow]

24 minutes ago, rongo said:

Well, I think I know him better than your "maybe he actually did not like scrubbing up against other dudes while getting slammed in the back by his running back.  Maybe there's a lot of him we don't understand" alternative. 

Based on what happened at the time, news coverage, press conference, his own statements, etc. 

You have to be a special kind of tough, both mentally and physically, to play offensive line for your career. 

[Darren10]

48 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Here's a sabbath day question, what if you are trying to keep the Sabbath but the person or persons you are living with and are members aren't? Like, they come home and watch TV or a Movie or blast their "Christmas with Colonel Sanders" album?

'"Christmas with Colonel Sanders"'

WTH is that?

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Former BYU football lineman Eli Herring, a promising, highly-touted NFL prospect,  passed up millions of dollars to avoid playing on Sundays.  Conversely, former BYU QB Steve Young made a pretty nice living after making the opposite decision.  Perhaps it isn't for me (or for anyone else) to question either decision.  Both are accountable to God, not to me or to anyone else.

"Both are accountable to God, not to me" - PHEW!!!

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

First, the person presenting the lesson knows most about what happened regarding his studying, or not, on the Sabbath. That' said, I think there's more to view than his simple testimony that he only passed because he did not study on the Sabbath. I think he passed because he disciplined himself very effectively to study so well throughout that week that he did not need to study on the Sabbath.

That's basically what my wife concluded as she brought it up later.  Thus, his "certaintly" claim felt hollow.  He didn't give the lesson.  It was his comment sometime during the lesson, though. 

3 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Second, let me elaborate a bit n the first by sharing what I think were really wise words from a BYU bishop I had on this very topic. He told the ward member (all BYU students) that if we really needed to study on the Sabbath, then study on the Sabbath. However, if you do, then simply ask ourselves ourselves if there was anything we could have done to avoid studying on the Sabbath. The answer would probably be yes. If so then we should consider what we could do to avoid Sabbath day study.

Third, the Sabbath is not about "doing whatever you want", it's about dedicating one day per week entirely to God. That means to act in a way which glorifies Him. If you need family time, use family time. If someone you know needs help, help them. If you need to rest a little more physical rest (nap) *so that* you can work better throughout the week, then get that rest in. I agree we should not judge and Mormons are guilty on judging others regarding the Sabbath. Standardized conduct is quite pharisaic I agree; but ultimately the Sabbath is about our day dedicated to God and it should be what makes Latter-day Saints a "peculiar people" in the world.

I hear you on your perspective and I disagree to an extent.  I say dedicate my time to God on all days.  Find ways to help people any day...So I'm not sure what sitting on my caboose listening to the Mo-tab has to do with anything. 

[Guest]

My story...

I was working as an electrician back in 1985 on a High Rise Hotel. All of those whom I worked for after leaving the Army (during my construction years) knew that I did not work on Sunday's. Anyway, job is falling way behind, and the job foreman asked if I could work the Sunday prior to Thanksgiving, as the short week would cause the job to fall behind even more. As he was giving me the "full court press" to work, I told him that I would come in at 4:00AM, and I would leave at 11:00AM, to attend Church. That morning, I turned over the work I was doing on some hallway lighting taps (hot taps), he was dead at 11:30AM. He left a wife and two children. 

What does this mean? I don't know, I am just glad I went home to take my wife (then expecting) and my two children to Church.